Cumulative Synthetic Oil Discussion
04-04-2008, 12:05 PM
#602
Unfortunately whether we agree or not, the government has deemed them synthetic.
For those without the history, Mobil sued Castrol on Castrol calling Syntec a full synthetic because it was made with Group III and was not a pure Group IV (PAO) or V (Other synthetic, including mostly esters) - and at the time Mobil 1 was a pure group IV (PAO).
Eventually Castrol won the right to still call the group III-based Syntec a full synthetic, and all us consumers lost, as since Groups III's were now allowed to be called "Full Synthetic", many of the oil manufacturers have "redesigned" their synthetic oils to use either some or all Group III to save money, but still charge the premium price. That is not to say there are not some fine Group III oils out there - there are, but they are much less expensive to make and should not command the premium price that Group IV/V oils do.
Here is a partial list of some of the base oils for major brands that I know:
- Pennzoil Platinum - mostly Group III, with maybe some Group V - although a fine oil
- Mobil 1 - combo of Group III and IV, but all weights used to be pure Group IV before this lawsuit. OW40 is the only pure Group IV (PAO) left
- Castrol Syntec - Group III with may a little Group IV for certain viscosities
- Royal Purple - mostly Group IV with just a little Group III as a carrier oil for additives
- AMSOIL - 100% Group IV for the better products - XL series are Group IIIs
- Redline - Group V - and only Polyol Ester base oil, the most expensive and best Ester base oil available.
This Group III thing is what makes this whole dino/synthetic debate unnecessary as even some dino's (5W20's especially) now have some Group III base oils blended in them to meet SM specs - it is getting almost impossible with the base oil blending going on today to separate them out.
Since I have not weighed in on this Synthetic/Dino thing on the rotary yet anyways - my take on why Mazda started out avoiding Synthetics is that the original "Synthetics" were pretty much all Group IV (PAO) - and the main characteristic of these oils that took some time to overcome in the early formulations was they caused seal shrinkage instead of seal swell like dinos (groups I, II, and II+), Group III, and Group V oils do.
This seal shrinkage caused sealing issues with the gaskets between the various engine plates, causing compression issues. This issue has now been accounted for in all modern formulations with added ingredients in group IV (PAO) oils to counteract this tendency - this is also why many now like to blend group III and IV oils. This is no longer a concern and thus why it is baffling as to why Mazda has maintained this recomendation.
I do not think it ever had had to do with how clean burning synthetics were or deposits left behind, because all 4-cycles oils, independent of dino or synthetic are going to burn about the same and leave about the same amount of deposits behind with the possible exception of Group V (esters), that would be cleaner, and of no concern.
So, I think it was due to seal shrinkage issues and not all the other theories thrown out here - but who will ever know for sure.
For those without the history, Mobil sued Castrol on Castrol calling Syntec a full synthetic because it was made with Group III and was not a pure Group IV (PAO) or V (Other synthetic, including mostly esters) - and at the time Mobil 1 was a pure group IV (PAO).
Eventually Castrol won the right to still call the group III-based Syntec a full synthetic, and all us consumers lost, as since Groups III's were now allowed to be called "Full Synthetic", many of the oil manufacturers have "redesigned" their synthetic oils to use either some or all Group III to save money, but still charge the premium price. That is not to say there are not some fine Group III oils out there - there are, but they are much less expensive to make and should not command the premium price that Group IV/V oils do.
Here is a partial list of some of the base oils for major brands that I know:
- Pennzoil Platinum - mostly Group III, with maybe some Group V - although a fine oil
- Mobil 1 - combo of Group III and IV, but all weights used to be pure Group IV before this lawsuit. OW40 is the only pure Group IV (PAO) left
- Castrol Syntec - Group III with may a little Group IV for certain viscosities
- Royal Purple - mostly Group IV with just a little Group III as a carrier oil for additives
- AMSOIL - 100% Group IV for the better products - XL series are Group IIIs
- Redline - Group V - and only Polyol Ester base oil, the most expensive and best Ester base oil available.
This Group III thing is what makes this whole dino/synthetic debate unnecessary as even some dino's (5W20's especially) now have some Group III base oils blended in them to meet SM specs - it is getting almost impossible with the base oil blending going on today to separate them out.
Since I have not weighed in on this Synthetic/Dino thing on the rotary yet anyways - my take on why Mazda started out avoiding Synthetics is that the original "Synthetics" were pretty much all Group IV (PAO) - and the main characteristic of these oils that took some time to overcome in the early formulations was they caused seal shrinkage instead of seal swell like dinos (groups I, II, and II+), Group III, and Group V oils do.
This seal shrinkage caused sealing issues with the gaskets between the various engine plates, causing compression issues. This issue has now been accounted for in all modern formulations with added ingredients in group IV (PAO) oils to counteract this tendency - this is also why many now like to blend group III and IV oils. This is no longer a concern and thus why it is baffling as to why Mazda has maintained this recomendation.
I do not think it ever had had to do with how clean burning synthetics were or deposits left behind, because all 4-cycles oils, independent of dino or synthetic are going to burn about the same and leave about the same amount of deposits behind with the possible exception of Group V (esters), that would be cleaner, and of no concern.
So, I think it was due to seal shrinkage issues and not all the other theories thrown out here - but who will ever know for sure.
that sums up so much.. and is damn accurate. thx jax! could this one post be a sticky? PLEASE
beers
04-04-2008, 12:44 PM
#603
its pretty easy to tell if its really a *Synthetic* or not.
At least Im sure that Oils start with 0 are Synthetic.
Cuz as far as my research goes, Nothing from Dino can produce something with 0 viscosity.
Yeah Castrol did cheat, Thats why I got almost all 0w30(IV) and couple of 5w40(III...), why 5w40? cuz Autozone ran out of 0w30 !
At least Im sure that Oils start with 0 are Synthetic.
Cuz as far as my research goes, Nothing from Dino can produce something with 0 viscosity.
Yeah Castrol did cheat, Thats why I got almost all 0w30(IV) and couple of 5w40(III...), why 5w40? cuz Autozone ran out of 0w30 !
04-04-2008, 01:01 PM
#604
Metatron
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That's a good summary Jax, and nycgps has a good point about 'zero' weight oils too.
That said, most 5w20 oils have some "synthetic help" so they can meet the specs and stay in grade - a reputable branded 5w20 would still be a really good oil. I think for the average owner, using a name-brand 5w20 Mazda recommended oil would be fine, and certainly better than buying a cheap 10w30 dino oil, because he thinks the higher viscosity would protect better......
S
That said, most 5w20 oils have some "synthetic help" so they can meet the specs and stay in grade - a reputable branded 5w20 would still be a really good oil. I think for the average owner, using a name-brand 5w20 Mazda recommended oil would be fine, and certainly better than buying a cheap 10w30 dino oil, because he thinks the higher viscosity would protect better......
S
04-04-2008, 02:19 PM
#605
Got Another Rotary
That's a good summary Jax, and nycgps has a good point about 'zero' weight oils too.
That said, most 5w20 oils have some "synthetic help" so they can meet the specs and stay in grade - a reputable branded 5w20 would still be a really good oil. I think for the average owner, using a name-brand 5w20 Mazda recommended oil would be fine, and certainly better than buying a cheap 10w30 dino oil, because he thinks the higher viscosity would protect better......
S
That said, most 5w20 oils have some "synthetic help" so they can meet the specs and stay in grade - a reputable branded 5w20 would still be a really good oil. I think for the average owner, using a name-brand 5w20 Mazda recommended oil would be fine, and certainly better than buying a cheap 10w30 dino oil, because he thinks the higher viscosity would protect better......
S
Both you and NYCPGS are correct in that you cannot achieve a 0wXX weight with anything else but a synthetic - and almost all dino 5W20 oils have some group III (hydrocracked synthetic) blended in to meet the SM wear requirements with the reduced ZDDP requirements.
I also agree with you that all 5W20 oils are very, very good oils and are fine for use in the rotary. A 5W or 10W30 might buy some more protection for those tracking or in very hot climates, but otherwise 5W20s will provide very good protection (dino or synthetic frankly with our short OCIs we should be doing due to fuel dilution)
Last edited by Jax_RX8; 04-04-2008 at 02:23 PM.
04-04-2008, 03:28 PM
#606
So From everything I have read so far the two oils that are Group V are Motul 300V Power and Redline. The best and most expensive oils.
Now my question is what is the optimum grade for the Summer Track season (around 6 HPDE weekends) 5W30, 5W40 or 10W40, and how often does it need to be changed?
Now my question is what is the optimum grade for the Summer Track season (around 6 HPDE weekends) 5W30, 5W40 or 10W40, and how often does it need to be changed?
and change ur oil after your track session.
04-04-2008, 08:27 PM
#607
Got Another Rotary
So From everything I have read so far the two oils that are Group V are Motul 300V Power and Redline. The best and most expensive oils.
Now my question is what is the optimum grade for the Summer Track season (around 6 HPDE weekends) 5W30, 5W40 or 10W40, and how often does it need to be changed?
Now my question is what is the optimum grade for the Summer Track season (around 6 HPDE weekends) 5W30, 5W40 or 10W40, and how often does it need to be changed?
On the Motul - I did forget to mention as it is not a common oil in the States, but they are very fine oils as well, many group V oils there, but I am not sure if they are all polyol esters like Redline or not. Elf also makes some interesting oils as well. Most of the rest of the domestic brands synthetics (Quaker State, Valvoline, etc) are group IIIs or Groups IIIs with a little group IV or V blended in.
04-06-2008, 04:56 PM
#609
dont hate...just rotate!!
i am thinking about switching to synthetic.. and its time for an oil change and i have done some research on this as well... i just want some people's opinions on what brand you guys recommend and what viscosity.. i'd like to go the mobil 1 route but ive read some stuff about it.. didnt look good
thanks for your help
matt
thanks for your help
matt
04-06-2008, 06:25 PM
#610
Got Another Rotary
So Motul does uses Esters, but there are hundreds of esters for possible use. The do not specifically state Polyol Esters, which are the best and most expensive like Redline uses.
That said, any oil is total package of base oil, additive package quality, and engineered formula, so I am sure they are very, very good oils as well.
04-08-2008, 01:21 PM
#611
Registered
I've stated many times why Mazda says what they do. I got it straight from the head of the rotary department in Japan. You can't go to a higher source! There is no speculation as to why they say what they say.
Incidentally here's a neat little oil tibit from fc3spro.com which is a 2nd gen RX-7 forum:
http://fc3spro.com/TECH/MODS/ENGINE/OIL/oilfaq.html
Incidentally here's a neat little oil tibit from fc3spro.com which is a 2nd gen RX-7 forum:
http://fc3spro.com/TECH/MODS/ENGINE/OIL/oilfaq.html
04-27-2008, 06:56 PM
#612
is adjusting valve lash
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Royal Purple synthetic trans fluids
here is my opinion on synthetics. and i've never been a fan of synthetics... but thought it was ok to use on a new car which won't leak...
but anyway... ever since 1k miles when i swapped out the oem trans/diff fluids and use RP since racing beat seems to trust that brand, i've been getting NO improved smooth shift feel until the fluids fully warm up.
every morning i have to drive slow and no matter, 1st to 2nd will always occassionally feel notchy and the gears feel like its clashing.
at 9k miles and i eventually got tired of this synthetic characteristic thats burned in me... my remedy was to get some lucas and drain some, and add some in to thicken it up. but it seems like my fear with synthetics holds true...(at least for me)
they are thin and cook/burn off quicker!
- lucas: i ONLY added in fluid, and it took a lil more than half the f'ing bottle.... which is prolly over 1/2qt! and the gears felt smooth after, while that factory ka-thoonk sound into first gear comes back... but everything feels normal.
so how long before more RP fluid burns off???? IDK!
this must absolutely be the reason why my cabin smelled like oil for the longest time making me chase for the leak as i also installed the RB gauge kit!
i haven't got a chance to check the RP fluid in the diff.... but its nowhere near high heat like the trans next to the cat. so no complaints there as of now.
so the story is that i still don't trust synthetics performance FULLY. it depends where you put it, i guess. but that **** does cook/burn quicker. synthetic oils just looks too thin imo. even RP's 75/90 looks like some light weight motor oil.
12k miles comes, i'm goin to look for some high end petrol trans fluid. we'll see about the diff...
for the guys that swear by synthetics... sorry. its just my experience. and nothing about synthetic anything really gets my persuasion anymore...
i'm not saying you can't use what you want... if you think its best to use synthetics, go ahead.
i just can't afford to wait around til i get a full fledged redline 1st gear to 2nd gear grind!
but anyway... ever since 1k miles when i swapped out the oem trans/diff fluids and use RP since racing beat seems to trust that brand, i've been getting NO improved smooth shift feel until the fluids fully warm up.
every morning i have to drive slow and no matter, 1st to 2nd will always occassionally feel notchy and the gears feel like its clashing.
at 9k miles and i eventually got tired of this synthetic characteristic thats burned in me... my remedy was to get some lucas and drain some, and add some in to thicken it up. but it seems like my fear with synthetics holds true...(at least for me)
they are thin and cook/burn off quicker!
- lucas: i ONLY added in fluid, and it took a lil more than half the f'ing bottle.... which is prolly over 1/2qt! and the gears felt smooth after, while that factory ka-thoonk sound into first gear comes back... but everything feels normal.
so how long before more RP fluid burns off???? IDK!
this must absolutely be the reason why my cabin smelled like oil for the longest time making me chase for the leak as i also installed the RB gauge kit!
i haven't got a chance to check the RP fluid in the diff.... but its nowhere near high heat like the trans next to the cat. so no complaints there as of now.
so the story is that i still don't trust synthetics performance FULLY. it depends where you put it, i guess. but that **** does cook/burn quicker. synthetic oils just looks too thin imo. even RP's 75/90 looks like some light weight motor oil.
12k miles comes, i'm goin to look for some high end petrol trans fluid. we'll see about the diff...
for the guys that swear by synthetics... sorry. its just my experience. and nothing about synthetic anything really gets my persuasion anymore...
i'm not saying you can't use what you want... if you think its best to use synthetics, go ahead.
i just can't afford to wait around til i get a full fledged redline 1st gear to 2nd gear grind!
Last edited by TrochoidMagic; 04-27-2008 at 07:00 PM.
04-27-2008, 07:07 PM
#613
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BTW, i didn't read this whole thread again. just wanted to bring my opinions first and foremost to the community. but i just saw 2 post above mine's...
yeah... i like to try mobil or need to find another brand. a well known brand
* can anyone please recommend me some good brands GL4 and GL5 fluids thats
NOT SYNTHETIC!? like does mobil or valvoline etc. have anything with a thicker viscosity??? maybe 80/90 and ??/140 viscosity...
tahnks,
trochoid
yeah... i like to try mobil or need to find another brand. a well known brand
* can anyone please recommend me some good brands GL4 and GL5 fluids thats
NOT SYNTHETIC!? like does mobil or valvoline etc. have anything with a thicker viscosity??? maybe 80/90 and ??/140 viscosity...
tahnks,
trochoid
05-08-2008, 09:41 PM
#614
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05-08-2008, 10:23 PM
#616
Redline makes very good oil.
U made the right choice
I used to use Royal Purple only, switched to Castrol Syntec 0w30 recently cuz its cheap (and the only TRUE Full Synthetic in the whole Castrol Syntec line), after Im done with it, Im going to Full Redline.
U made the right choice
I used to use Royal Purple only, switched to Castrol Syntec 0w30 recently cuz its cheap (and the only TRUE Full Synthetic in the whole Castrol Syntec line), after Im done with it, Im going to Full Redline.
05-11-2008, 02:50 AM
#617
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Unfortunately whether we agree or not, the government has deemed them synthetic.
For those without the history, Mobil sued Castrol on Castrol calling Syntec a full synthetic because it was made with Group III and was not a pure Group IV (PAO) or V (Other synthetic, including mostly esters) - and at the time Mobil 1 was a pure group IV (PAO).
Eventually Castrol won the right to still call the group III-based Syntec a full synthetic, and all us consumers lost, as since Groups III's were now allowed to be called "Full Synthetic", many of the oil manufacturers have "redesigned" their synthetic oils to use either some or all Group III to save money, but still charge the premium price. That is not to say there are not some fine Group III oils out there - there are, but they are much less expensive to make and should not command the premium price that Group IV/V oils do.
Here is a partial list of some of the base oils for major brands that I know:
- Pennzoil Platinum - mostly Group III, with maybe some Group V - although a fine oil
- Mobil 1 - combo of Group III and IV, but all weights used to be pure Group IV before this lawsuit. OW40 is the only pure Group IV (PAO) left
- Castrol Syntec - Group III with may a little Group IV for certain viscosities
- Royal Purple - mostly Group IV with just a little Group III as a carrier oil for additives
- AMSOIL - 100% Group IV for the better products - XL series are Group IIIs
- Redline - Group V - and only Polyol Ester base oil, the most expensive and best Ester base oil available.
This Group III thing is what makes this whole dino/synthetic debate unnecessary as even some dino's (5W20's especially) now have some Group III base oils blended in them to meet SM specs - it is getting almost impossible with the base oil blending going on today to separate them out.
Since I have not weighed in on this Synthetic/Dino thing on the rotary yet anyways - my take on why Mazda started out avoiding Synthetics is that the original "Synthetics" were pretty much all Group IV (PAO) - and the main characteristic of these oils that took some time to overcome in the early formulations was they caused seal shrinkage instead of seal swell like dinos (groups I, II, and II+), Group III, and Group V oils do.
This seal shrinkage caused sealing issues with the gaskets between the various engine plates, causing compression issues. This issue has now been accounted for in all modern formulations with added ingredients in group IV (PAO) oils to counteract this tendency - this is also why many now like to blend group III and IV oils. This is no longer a concern and thus why it is baffling as to why Mazda has maintained this recomendation.
I do not think it ever had had to do with how clean burning synthetics were or deposits left behind, because all 4-cycles oils, independent of dino or synthetic are going to burn about the same and leave about the same amount of deposits behind with the possible exception of Group V (esters), that would be cleaner, and of no concern.
So, I think it was due to seal shrinkage issues and not all the other theories thrown out here - but who will ever know for sure.
For those without the history, Mobil sued Castrol on Castrol calling Syntec a full synthetic because it was made with Group III and was not a pure Group IV (PAO) or V (Other synthetic, including mostly esters) - and at the time Mobil 1 was a pure group IV (PAO).
Eventually Castrol won the right to still call the group III-based Syntec a full synthetic, and all us consumers lost, as since Groups III's were now allowed to be called "Full Synthetic", many of the oil manufacturers have "redesigned" their synthetic oils to use either some or all Group III to save money, but still charge the premium price. That is not to say there are not some fine Group III oils out there - there are, but they are much less expensive to make and should not command the premium price that Group IV/V oils do.
Here is a partial list of some of the base oils for major brands that I know:
- Pennzoil Platinum - mostly Group III, with maybe some Group V - although a fine oil
- Mobil 1 - combo of Group III and IV, but all weights used to be pure Group IV before this lawsuit. OW40 is the only pure Group IV (PAO) left
- Castrol Syntec - Group III with may a little Group IV for certain viscosities
- Royal Purple - mostly Group IV with just a little Group III as a carrier oil for additives
- AMSOIL - 100% Group IV for the better products - XL series are Group IIIs
- Redline - Group V - and only Polyol Ester base oil, the most expensive and best Ester base oil available.
This Group III thing is what makes this whole dino/synthetic debate unnecessary as even some dino's (5W20's especially) now have some Group III base oils blended in them to meet SM specs - it is getting almost impossible with the base oil blending going on today to separate them out.
Since I have not weighed in on this Synthetic/Dino thing on the rotary yet anyways - my take on why Mazda started out avoiding Synthetics is that the original "Synthetics" were pretty much all Group IV (PAO) - and the main characteristic of these oils that took some time to overcome in the early formulations was they caused seal shrinkage instead of seal swell like dinos (groups I, II, and II+), Group III, and Group V oils do.
This seal shrinkage caused sealing issues with the gaskets between the various engine plates, causing compression issues. This issue has now been accounted for in all modern formulations with added ingredients in group IV (PAO) oils to counteract this tendency - this is also why many now like to blend group III and IV oils. This is no longer a concern and thus why it is baffling as to why Mazda has maintained this recomendation.
I do not think it ever had had to do with how clean burning synthetics were or deposits left behind, because all 4-cycles oils, independent of dino or synthetic are going to burn about the same and leave about the same amount of deposits behind with the possible exception of Group V (esters), that would be cleaner, and of no concern.
So, I think it was due to seal shrinkage issues and not all the other theories thrown out here - but who will ever know for sure.
05-12-2008, 10:56 PM
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I think if your going synthetic, group v is the best.
I'm going with Group V as soon as I use up all my syntec cases.
I read somewhere that if your going synthetic with a rotary, it must be an ester base, which I read here to be a group V...
Since the PAO based Group IV oils were corrosive to plastic and rubber, which I think the oldie rotary side seals were made out rubber, people stayed away from synthetics altogether.
but like jax_rx8 says, that its no longer a concern to use Group IV oil, because of the newer formula and newer side seals...
but I would like to go with redline just to be 100% confident, plus I read somewhere here that the ester base oil cling on the metal surfaces which is good for cold starts.
did I get anything wrong?
I'm going with Group V as soon as I use up all my syntec cases.
I read somewhere that if your going synthetic with a rotary, it must be an ester base, which I read here to be a group V...
Since the PAO based Group IV oils were corrosive to plastic and rubber, which I think the oldie rotary side seals were made out rubber, people stayed away from synthetics altogether.
but like jax_rx8 says, that its no longer a concern to use Group IV oil, because of the newer formula and newer side seals...
but I would like to go with redline just to be 100% confident, plus I read somewhere here that the ester base oil cling on the metal surfaces which is good for cold starts.
did I get anything wrong?
05-13-2008, 06:30 PM
#620
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Here is what I found on Motul 300V - "The Double Ester Technology (complex esters ang polymer esters) is enhanced with high performing friction modifiers."
So Motul does uses Esters, but there are hundreds of esters for possible use. The do not specifically state Polyol Esters, which are the best and most expensive like Redline uses.
That said, any oil is total package of base oil, additive package quality, and engineered formula, so I am sure they are very, very good oils as well.
So Motul does uses Esters, but there are hundreds of esters for possible use. The do not specifically state Polyol Esters, which are the best and most expensive like Redline uses.
That said, any oil is total package of base oil, additive package quality, and engineered formula, so I am sure they are very, very good oils as well.
05-18-2008, 04:50 PM
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i've been using royal purple 5w-20 since i got my 8 at 41k miles, im at 52k now with now problems--- its $7.50 a quart not even worth it, and very hard to find only a couple of automotive spots carry it but i love my car so she gets the best!
05-26-2008, 10:16 PM
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I've been putting in Castrol GTX 5w20 since I bought my 8. It's at 3500 miles now and I'm thinking of switching to Redline 5w30 after reading through this discussion. Is there any concerns with switching the oil weight. I know in conventional engines that the change in oil weight can shrink the gaskets. What about in the rotary?
05-26-2008, 10:58 PM
#625
I've been putting in Castrol GTX 5w20 since I bought my 8. It's at 3500 miles now and I'm thinking of switching to Redline 5w30 after reading through this discussion. Is there any concerns with switching the oil weight. I know in conventional engines that the change in oil weight can shrink the gaskets. What about in the rotary?
You can switch the weight ANYTIME you want. ANYWHERE you want.
use 5w40 if you want to live longer.