Gas/Oil Premix Thread
05-10-2007, 07:35 PM
#377
Got Another Rotary
A little more data on Lucas UCL - not only has PIB, but has sulphur and phosphorous (likely by-products from ZDDP) to aid in it's lubricity. Attached is the MSDS.
Here is a link from Wiki on PIB - note section on "fuel and lubricant additive"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyisobutylene
Here is a link from Wiki on PIB - note section on "fuel and lubricant additive"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyisobutylene
Last edited by Jax_RX8; 05-29-2008 at 03:44 PM.
05-20-2007, 08:41 PM
#378
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I am sorry but there are just way too many pages to read. My question is: The factory lub systems draws the oil from the oil pan right, or does it have it's own oil tank that needs to be refilled? Sorry for the newb question
05-22-2007, 01:58 PM
#381
Got Another Rotary
My Premix Formula Update
One very nice thing about having the Sohn Adapter and separate tank setup is you can get very accurate readings of your oil injection via the OMP - I am using exactly 1 qt every 2500 miles or about 3.2 oz per tank (250 miles).
This rate of injection seems a little too low for me, even with my FP3000 use (previously FP60), so I am now officially "premixing" - supplementing with 2oz additional Idemitsu Rotary Premix per tank as well.
This gives me a total of 5.2 oz of Idemitsu Rotary Premix and 2 oz of FP3000 total per tank, which makes me feel better, and the engine seems to like it too.
One very nice thing about having the Sohn Adapter and separate tank setup is you can get very accurate readings of your oil injection via the OMP - I am using exactly 1 qt every 2500 miles or about 3.2 oz per tank (250 miles).
This rate of injection seems a little too low for me, even with my FP3000 use (previously FP60), so I am now officially "premixing" - supplementing with 2oz additional Idemitsu Rotary Premix per tank as well.
This gives me a total of 5.2 oz of Idemitsu Rotary Premix and 2 oz of FP3000 total per tank, which makes me feel better, and the engine seems to like it too.
05-29-2007, 06:07 AM
#382
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You use the Sohn adapter, and pre-mix?
I am getting some Lucas UCL. Seems to be good for premixing, and for cleaning.
But with the Sohn adapter, it doesnt go through the injectors. So you put the Idemitsu into the Sohn adapter tank? And what tank do you use? I would hate to have some ghetto resevoir.
I am getting some Lucas UCL. Seems to be good for premixing, and for cleaning.
But with the Sohn adapter, it doesnt go through the injectors. So you put the Idemitsu into the Sohn adapter tank? And what tank do you use? I would hate to have some ghetto resevoir.
Last edited by RX8PDX; 05-29-2007 at 06:10 AM.
05-29-2007, 03:09 PM
#383
Got Another Rotary
You use the Sohn adapter, and pre-mix?
I am getting some Lucas UCL. Seems to be good for premixing, and for cleaning.
But with the Sohn adapter, it doesnt go through the injectors. So you put the Idemitsu into the Sohn adapter tank? And what tank do you use? I would hate to have some ghetto resevoir.
I am getting some Lucas UCL. Seems to be good for premixing, and for cleaning.
But with the Sohn adapter, it doesnt go through the injectors. So you put the Idemitsu into the Sohn adapter tank? And what tank do you use? I would hate to have some ghetto resevoir.
Thus, I am adding 2oz more of IRP to the gas (Premixing), per 12 gallons (5.2 total) to have an approximate ratio of 1:300, which is the optimum rate for IRP. I also add 2oz. of FP3000 per 12 gallons for even more lubricity and excellent cleaning.
2. On the Lucas UCL - while I like it, I would not mix with other 2-cycles oils as several on here that have had fuel pump issues did this - While it may not be related, LUCL may not play well with other 2-cycles.
3. All the Sohn adapter does is change the oil source for the OMP - allowing me to use IRP instead of sump oil - and it does use the original oil injectors. I used the Windshield Washer tank to hold the IRP - linky below on details
https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tech-garage-22/richard-sohn-omp-mop-adapter-102271/
Last edited by Jax_RX8; 05-29-2007 at 03:13 PM.
05-31-2007, 07:07 AM
#387
Ayrton Senna Forever
Does the MOP pump the same amount of oil with the sohn adapter, only using the gravity oil feed not the engine's oil pressure?
I'am afraid of that the oil injecting is less with the Sohn adapter (gravity feed), than with the original "oil pressurized" MOP, and the oil nozzle's doesn't working as good with the weak pressure, than with the bigger pressure.
I'am afraid of that the oil injecting is less with the Sohn adapter (gravity feed), than with the original "oil pressurized" MOP, and the oil nozzle's doesn't working as good with the weak pressure, than with the bigger pressure.
Last edited by ayrton012; 05-31-2007 at 07:22 AM.
05-31-2007, 10:13 AM
#388
Got Another Rotary
Does the MOP pump the same amount of oil with the sohn adapter, only using the gravity oil feed not the engine's oil pressure?
I'am afraid of that the oil injecting is less with the Sohn adapter (gravity feed), than with the original "oil pressurized" MOP, and the oil nozzle's doesn't working as good with the weak pressure, than with the bigger pressure.
I'am afraid of that the oil injecting is less with the Sohn adapter (gravity feed), than with the original "oil pressurized" MOP, and the oil nozzle's doesn't working as good with the weak pressure, than with the bigger pressure.
The "gravity feed" is the oil getting to the OMP from the separate tank for pumping to the engine (low pressure pumping). Without the adapter, the OMP gets it's oil from the sump as it is connected to the engine at the oil pan level and has constant access to the sump oil (with no pressure).
The OMP flows very little oil at a time and access to oil from the tank has not been an issue. The only reason to have the tank a minimum of 6" above the OMP is to keep a little downward flow pressure to assure oil is available to the OMP as it needs it and to prevent air pockets.
Last edited by Jax_RX8; 05-31-2007 at 10:16 AM.
06-01-2007, 01:31 AM
#390
Ayrton Senna Forever
The OMP feeds the same amount with the Sohn adapter as without, unless you get the adjuster as well as it will allow you to manually control the base flow rate - I do not have the adjuster.
The "gravity feed" is the oil getting to the OMP from the separate tank for pumping to the engine (low pressure pumping). Without the adapter, the OMP gets it's oil from the sump as it is connected to the engine at the oil pan level and has constant access to the sump oil (with no pressure).
The OMP flows very little oil at a time and access to oil from the tank has not been an issue. The only reason to have the tank a minimum of 6" above the OMP is to keep a little downward flow pressure to assure oil is available to the OMP as it needs it and to prevent air pockets.
The "gravity feed" is the oil getting to the OMP from the separate tank for pumping to the engine (low pressure pumping). Without the adapter, the OMP gets it's oil from the sump as it is connected to the engine at the oil pan level and has constant access to the sump oil (with no pressure).
The OMP flows very little oil at a time and access to oil from the tank has not been an issue. The only reason to have the tank a minimum of 6" above the OMP is to keep a little downward flow pressure to assure oil is available to the OMP as it needs it and to prevent air pockets.
The OMP is not a low pressure pump. There is no parts in it, what can build up pressure. The pistons are fixed (not moving), the "pipes" (with little holes) around the two pistons are always turning (driven by the eccentric shaft). This pipes only move up or down around the little pistons, when the stepper motor makes new setting for its( leading by the PCM.)
I don't believe that the gravity feed and the engine's vakuum makes the same carb. of the oil by the nozzles, than a higher pressure what caused by the real oil pump.
Last edited by ayrton012; 06-01-2007 at 09:55 AM.
06-01-2007, 01:25 PM
#391
Got Another Rotary
The OMP gets the oil by pressure. That is in the pressurized oil line.
The OMP is not a low pressure pump. There is no parts in it, what can build up pressure. The pistons are fixed (not moving), the "pipes" (with little holes) around the two pistons are always turning (driven by the eccentric shaft). This pipes only move up or down around the little pistons, when the stepper motor makes new setting for its( leading by the PCM.)
I don't believe that the gravity feed and the engine's vakuum makes the same carb. of the oil by the nozzles, than a higher pressure what caused by the real oil pump.
The OMP is not a low pressure pump. There is no parts in it, what can build up pressure. The pistons are fixed (not moving), the "pipes" (with little holes) around the two pistons are always turning (driven by the eccentric shaft). This pipes only move up or down around the little pistons, when the stepper motor makes new setting for its( leading by the PCM.)
I don't believe that the gravity feed and the engine's vakuum makes the same carb. of the oil by the nozzles, than a higher pressure what caused by the real oil pump.
I can tell you that my OMP is completely cutoff from the engine oil pump/oil with the exception of the stepper setting - so either the OMP is providing pressure, or the engine vacuum is pulling in the oil (in which case the OMP acts as a "limiter" on how much oil can be drawn in).
06-04-2007, 01:58 PM
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Hey Jax, I've been planning on trying a bottle of either FP60 or FP3000 (I'm currently using Lucas UCL). Neither has been in stock on their website for like 2 weeks now (as long as I've been checking). Any idea what's up with that? Is it always this way?
06-04-2007, 03:28 PM
#393
Got Another Rotary
FP3000 is in limited availability and has only had a few special purchases announced on BITOG for leftover product from corporate customer batches. It is anticipated that it will go into more general availability this month as well.
While I like FP60 a lot and use my stash in my other cars, now that I have FP3000, I use my it exclusively in my 8 because of it's better UCL characteristics.
Net, Net, is Lube Control is a small company that is starting to get national exposure and are playing catch-up with the increased demand. Be patient, their products are worth the wait.
Last edited by Jax_RX8; 06-04-2007 at 03:34 PM.
06-04-2007, 03:44 PM
#394
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I've been reading this thread for quite some time with interest and skepticism. On one hand you've people who swear this stuff clogged their fuel pump and on the other you've got guys like Jax who sound like broken record salesmen pushing products (no offense Jax but look at all your posts and inside knowledge of this Co). Well my motor died and I'm looking to increase longevity of the next one and I might be willing to take the premix plunge. Instead of just going by all this heresay I decided to do my damned homework and contact Idemitsu USA for their feedback on the clogged pumps and premixing itself. Here you go kids...
l I have never heard of any quality premix clogging any pumps or filters…ever. I have heard of low quality 2-stroke oils clumping/gelling at low temps though.
l Idemitsu Premix is normally not used when the OMP is still operational; we recommend this typically for racing applications where the OMP and the catalytic converter have been removed.
l I see some people on your thread are using any old 2-stroke oil as premix…even “Chain Saw Oil”… While this may not be detrimental to the engine, it is NOT good for the catalytic converter. The EP additives (mainly Phosphorus) in many 2-stroke oils will attack and ruin a catalytic converter very quickly depending on the PM ratio.
l I am not saying that we have the only good premix oil, I am just saying to definitely use one that will not harm the cat. I only know of one other competitor that makes a good oil designed to be used with a cat.
l I have never heard of any quality premix clogging any pumps or filters…ever. I have heard of low quality 2-stroke oils clumping/gelling at low temps though.
l Idemitsu Premix is normally not used when the OMP is still operational; we recommend this typically for racing applications where the OMP and the catalytic converter have been removed.
l I see some people on your thread are using any old 2-stroke oil as premix…even “Chain Saw Oil”… While this may not be detrimental to the engine, it is NOT good for the catalytic converter. The EP additives (mainly Phosphorus) in many 2-stroke oils will attack and ruin a catalytic converter very quickly depending on the PM ratio.
l I am not saying that we have the only good premix oil, I am just saying to definitely use one that will not harm the cat. I only know of one other competitor that makes a good oil designed to be used with a cat.
06-05-2007, 03:34 PM
#395
Got Another Rotary
I've been reading this thread for quite some time with interest and skepticism. On one hand you've people who swear this stuff clogged their fuel pump and on the other you've got guys like Jax who sound like broken record salesmen pushing products (no offense Jax but look at all your posts and inside knowledge of this Co). Well my motor died and I'm looking to increase longevity of the next one and I might be willing to take the premix plunge. Instead of just going by all this heresay I decided to do my damned homework and contact Idemitsu USA for their feedback on the clogged pumps and premixing itself. Here you go kids...
l I have never heard of any quality premix clogging any pumps or filters…ever. I have heard of low quality 2-stroke oils clumping/gelling at low temps though.
l Idemitsu Premix is normally not used when the OMP is still operational; we recommend this typically for racing applications where the OMP and the catalytic converter have been removed.
l I see some people on your thread are using any old 2-stroke oil as premix…even “Chain Saw Oil”… While this may not be detrimental to the engine, it is NOT good for the catalytic converter. The EP additives (mainly Phosphorus) in many 2-stroke oils will attack and ruin a catalytic converter very quickly depending on the PM ratio.
l I am not saying that we have the only good premix oil, I am just saying to definitely use one that will not harm the cat. I only know of one other competitor that makes a good oil designed to be used with a cat.
l I have never heard of any quality premix clogging any pumps or filters…ever. I have heard of low quality 2-stroke oils clumping/gelling at low temps though.
l Idemitsu Premix is normally not used when the OMP is still operational; we recommend this typically for racing applications where the OMP and the catalytic converter have been removed.
l I see some people on your thread are using any old 2-stroke oil as premix…even “Chain Saw Oil”… While this may not be detrimental to the engine, it is NOT good for the catalytic converter. The EP additives (mainly Phosphorus) in many 2-stroke oils will attack and ruin a catalytic converter very quickly depending on the PM ratio.
l I am not saying that we have the only good premix oil, I am just saying to definitely use one that will not harm the cat. I only know of one other competitor that makes a good oil designed to be used with a cat.
So, it seems Idemitsu was a little vague on the use of their Premix with a Cat - on one hand it is not "normally" used with a cat, but on the other they say only one "other" competitor makes a cat-safe premix. Did they provide any other data to clarify?
BTW - I don't mean to be pushy I am not associated with any of these companies, just read BITOG a lot and trying to do what any forum is about - share knowledge, experiences, and opinions - use them as you see fit.
06-05-2007, 03:36 PM
#396
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06-05-2007, 04:52 PM
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So, it seems Idemitsu was a little vague on the use of their Premix with a Cat - on one hand it is not "normally" used with a cat, but on the other they say only one "other" competitor makes a cat-safe premix. Did they provide any other data to clarify?
BTW - I don't mean to be pushy I am not associated with any of these companies, just read BITOG a lot and trying to do what any forum is about - share knowledge, experiences, and opinions - use them as you see fit.
BTW - I don't mean to be pushy I am not associated with any of these companies, just read BITOG a lot and trying to do what any forum is about - share knowledge, experiences, and opinions - use them as you see fit.
06-05-2007, 05:10 PM
#398
He's as bad as Can
Been using 4oz of Idemitsu per tank for the last 25,000 miles (94,000 total) The CAT is still working. One other unexpected result was a big reduction in tail pipe soot. That shows up in less than three tanks.
06-05-2007, 05:17 PM
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06-05-2007, 05:23 PM
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Jax,
I've read through this thread, and as a potential RX-8 owner who is weary of purchasing a car with questionable reliability, I am very interested in these Premix/OMP procedures.
In your recent posts you note that you've started premixing Idemitsu because you didn't think enough was being pumped through the OMP. (1) Let me ask you, what's your basis for determining how much is enough? Is this based on your results, other's recommendations, voodoo?
(2) Lube Control FP60/FP3000 sounds like an excellent fuel additive for meeting the lubrication/cleaning needs of the RENESIS, so why not just use it in the OMP, too?
(3) The quotes from Idemitsu above say that their product is recommended for use in racing engines without OMPs. The chemistry of Idemitsu is still unknown (I think), but should we have any reservation about combining it with FP60/3000 or, assuming you don't have the Sohn adapter, with motor oil?
I know there are a lot of theories out there, but I'd like to find a balance between engine maintenance, engine performance, and minimal effort. It seems obvious that injecting motor oil into the combustion chamber is going to make a mess and should be avoided, but since the Sohn adapter voids your warranty I wonder if (a) there are motor oils out there that will burn more cleanly or (b) this effect can be neutralized with fuel additives? I know there are no definitive answers, but any response will be appreciated.
I've read through this thread, and as a potential RX-8 owner who is weary of purchasing a car with questionable reliability, I am very interested in these Premix/OMP procedures.
In your recent posts you note that you've started premixing Idemitsu because you didn't think enough was being pumped through the OMP. (1) Let me ask you, what's your basis for determining how much is enough? Is this based on your results, other's recommendations, voodoo?
(2) Lube Control FP60/FP3000 sounds like an excellent fuel additive for meeting the lubrication/cleaning needs of the RENESIS, so why not just use it in the OMP, too?
(3) The quotes from Idemitsu above say that their product is recommended for use in racing engines without OMPs. The chemistry of Idemitsu is still unknown (I think), but should we have any reservation about combining it with FP60/3000 or, assuming you don't have the Sohn adapter, with motor oil?
I know there are a lot of theories out there, but I'd like to find a balance between engine maintenance, engine performance, and minimal effort. It seems obvious that injecting motor oil into the combustion chamber is going to make a mess and should be avoided, but since the Sohn adapter voids your warranty I wonder if (a) there are motor oils out there that will burn more cleanly or (b) this effect can be neutralized with fuel additives? I know there are no definitive answers, but any response will be appreciated.