Gas/Oil Premix Thread
02-19-2010, 02:39 PM
#2477
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Okay, here is the response from the first email I sent:
Good questions Scott and I wish I knew all of the answers. I can tell you that none of the Renesis engines in aircraft service have had any of those reported problems in cars. Mine is the earliest model (2004) and is making more power and has better compression than when new. I use only pre-mix oil & fuel. The engine never revs over 7400 rpm but it is used at full throttle a lot. Mine has about 600 flight hours on it so far.
Even the Renesis used with a supercharger (in airplane) has been trouble free on pre-mix oil.
My experience with all models of the rotary engine indicates that pre-mix is the single best thing you can do for rotary engine health and longevity. I have not used the Sohn adapter myself but if properly set up I think it is far better than the factory oiling system.
I'd like to hear of any results or observations you obtain in auto use.
Even the Renesis used with a supercharger (in airplane) has been trouble free on pre-mix oil.
My experience with all models of the rotary engine indicates that pre-mix is the single best thing you can do for rotary engine health and longevity. I have not used the Sohn adapter myself but if properly set up I think it is far better than the factory oiling system.
I'd like to hear of any results or observations you obtain in auto use.
02-19-2010, 03:35 PM
#2478
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Here is the second response (some support for you MMO lovers
):
):
HI Scott - this is a topic that could take a long time to answer, so I will give the "30,000" ft summary.
All rotary engines (13B, 12A, Renesis) typically fail in the car due to carbon buildup at about 100,000. The cause of the failure is carbon build up on the apex seals. Seals stick. Poor compression. Car don't start. Overhaul time
We believe (and have proven it in the aviation community) that the cause of the carbon build up is because Mazda injects engine oil into the combustion chamber. Engine oil is great stuff to lubricate your engines moving parts BUT is a bad idea in a combustion chamber. Engine oil contains all sorts of additives that are good for your engine but cause excessive carbon build up when burned (detergents, etc).
We NEVER inject engine oil into the chamber. We use ONLY 2 stroke oil (which by design, is meant to burn) with a little Marvel Mystery Oil (a long time secret of old time aviators). We have several examples of engines flying hundreds of hours ( a LOT of mileage in a car); the engine was taken apart for some other reason and the apex seals are still clean and fall right out of the grooves - no sticking and no carbon.
So... the short of it is - do not burn engine oil in the chamber. Either us the injection pump with 2 stroke oil OR PREMIX your oil in your gas.
All rotary engines (13B, 12A, Renesis) typically fail in the car due to carbon buildup at about 100,000. The cause of the failure is carbon build up on the apex seals. Seals stick. Poor compression. Car don't start. Overhaul time
We believe (and have proven it in the aviation community) that the cause of the carbon build up is because Mazda injects engine oil into the combustion chamber. Engine oil is great stuff to lubricate your engines moving parts BUT is a bad idea in a combustion chamber. Engine oil contains all sorts of additives that are good for your engine but cause excessive carbon build up when burned (detergents, etc).
We NEVER inject engine oil into the chamber. We use ONLY 2 stroke oil (which by design, is meant to burn) with a little Marvel Mystery Oil (a long time secret of old time aviators). We have several examples of engines flying hundreds of hours ( a LOT of mileage in a car); the engine was taken apart for some other reason and the apex seals are still clean and fall right out of the grooves - no sticking and no carbon.
So... the short of it is - do not burn engine oil in the chamber. Either us the injection pump with 2 stroke oil OR PREMIX your oil in your gas.
02-19-2010, 04:49 PM
#2481
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
Okay guys, one more (even though the MMO guys are gonna rape me )
)
Should have mentioned oil as that may be a factor. I use Mobile1 15-50 due to the constant high throttle use and the fact that my propeller gear reduction drive uses the engine oiling system for its lubrication. Normal oil temp is 180 and I use 210 F as a redline. If it gets that hot I back off enough to keep it there or less.
For premix oil I use any good quality 2 stroke mixed 50-50 with Marvel Mystery oil. The MMO keeps the seal grooves cleaner than anything else I've found. Stuck seals are one of the biggest causes of rotary overhauls. When I disassemble an engine the seals will fall out of the grooves when run with this stuff. I use about 3 to 4 ounces of this mixture per 5 gallons of fuel.
For premix oil I use any good quality 2 stroke mixed 50-50 with Marvel Mystery oil. The MMO keeps the seal grooves cleaner than anything else I've found. Stuck seals are one of the biggest causes of rotary overhauls. When I disassemble an engine the seals will fall out of the grooves when run with this stuff. I use about 3 to 4 ounces of this mixture per 5 gallons of fuel.
02-19-2010, 05:18 PM
#2482
Trained true Killers
Ok what I am trying to say from this email I am lead to understand that the oil my OMP is pumping 5w20 is causing the problem so is it possiable to use 2cycle or mix my 5w20 with MMO??
02-19-2010, 05:33 PM
#2485
Trained true Killers
02-19-2010, 06:28 PM
#2486
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02-19-2010, 06:37 PM
#2487
Trained true Killers
02-19-2010, 06:58 PM
#2488
you guys remember that one time we started talking about premixing and 4 years later we we're still talking about the same thing?? that was so cool....
On another note the only thing I could see as a rebuttal to airplane engines is they run around 13k to 14k rpms we go up to 9 at best. So the carbon buildup is far less at 13 to 14k this point was made like 50 pages back. Not sure if it has any merit here but yea.
On another note the only thing I could see as a rebuttal to airplane engines is they run around 13k to 14k rpms we go up to 9 at best. So the carbon buildup is far less at 13 to 14k this point was made like 50 pages back. Not sure if it has any merit here but yea.
02-19-2010, 09:24 PM
#2490
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If you use too much premix oil, your engine will build up carbon.
As a consequence, Al Gore will come to your home and ask you to pay up your carbon credits or buy a carbon sink from his garden to compensate.
If you dont, they'll deport you to India to work as a slave on Rajendra Pachauri's estate.
Now... back to seriousness
Chad D.
You can find Amsoil Interceptor at Canadian tire and Saber pro is usually carried by most speed bike shops.
You can also use Lucas 2cycle oil, its low ash and found for 10$ at Canadian Tire.
I got a batch of Motomaster 2 cycle oil, the Formula 1 I think, on special at like 2.50$ a bottle.
I was very surprised to find out it was met ISO EGD and JASO FC requirements.
Its been working fine for me so far. And dirt cheap.
As a consequence, Al Gore will come to your home and ask you to pay up your carbon credits or buy a carbon sink from his garden to compensate.
If you dont, they'll deport you to India to work as a slave on Rajendra Pachauri's estate.
Now... back to seriousness
Chad D.
You can find Amsoil Interceptor at Canadian tire and Saber pro is usually carried by most speed bike shops.
You can also use Lucas 2cycle oil, its low ash and found for 10$ at Canadian Tire.
I got a batch of Motomaster 2 cycle oil, the Formula 1 I think, on special at like 2.50$ a bottle.
I was very surprised to find out it was met ISO EGD and JASO FC requirements.
Its been working fine for me so far. And dirt cheap.
02-19-2010, 09:46 PM
#2491
Registered
No, not if you learn to listen to the experience of your elders. BTW, I think MMO is especially appreciated in aviation circles becuase of the still widespread use of leaded fuels.
Last edited by robrecht; 02-19-2010 at 09:55 PM.
02-19-2010, 09:52 PM
#2492
Registered
if it's tenagential, then it's not the main point of the thread. (I think that's called a Malapropism!) Ford in fact had nothing to do with the third and center oil injector.....stopping it or otherwise. funny how you seem to speculate on Mazda's intentions without interviewing them! I would not rely on what Mazda US was saying. My experience of car dealers in the US is not inspiring, and I think it naive to believe what they have been claiming without any substantiation.
2. Not speculation, just a claim put forward by some in Mazda.
3. Not Mazda US.
4. Not believing, hence my use of the word "claim," just informing you of said claim so that you might better understand what was posted.
02-20-2010, 01:55 AM
#2494
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I think the Mazda rotary engine in aircraft applications is a highly modified affair. For a start the apex seals are made from silicone carbide ceramics, the end housings are from expensive aluminium castings as opposed to cast iron to further reduce weight and the stock OMP is disabled because of oil starvation issues in flight, hence the use of a 2 stroke mixture.
Another reason for doing this is Mazda used cheap nylon, five cent tubes to feed oil to the apex lube injectors. These tubes are hidden and inaccessible under the intake manifold. After a few years these get old, get brittle and get cracked. Many if not most Mazda rotary engines in cars that have died after ten years and several hundred thousand miles have died for this ridiculous reason. Mazda should have used steel tubing for this critical function.
Typically aircraft applications are specially designed 3 rotor engines imported from Japan, (I believe Racing Beat has a 3 rotor turbo 900HP version)!
The MSP engine is very efficient. In the side exhaust port RX8 engine any residual un-burned fuel is re-circulated to the next combustion cycle. The exhaust port timing is also modified in the RX8 engine to allow a longer expansion cycle recovering more energy from the fuel. The RX8 engine has much lower exhaust temperature confirming the lower fuel consumption. Another advantage of the Mazda wankel is it is ideally suited to turbo compounding which can result in a further drop of fuel consumption of 20%. this would result in an automatic 20% increase in range with the same fuel load. HP is also increased by 20% with no increase in the cooling system requirements!!*
* credits: Paul Lamar
Another reason for doing this is Mazda used cheap nylon, five cent tubes to feed oil to the apex lube injectors. These tubes are hidden and inaccessible under the intake manifold. After a few years these get old, get brittle and get cracked. Many if not most Mazda rotary engines in cars that have died after ten years and several hundred thousand miles have died for this ridiculous reason. Mazda should have used steel tubing for this critical function.
Typically aircraft applications are specially designed 3 rotor engines imported from Japan, (I believe Racing Beat has a 3 rotor turbo 900HP version)!
The MSP engine is very efficient. In the side exhaust port RX8 engine any residual un-burned fuel is re-circulated to the next combustion cycle. The exhaust port timing is also modified in the RX8 engine to allow a longer expansion cycle recovering more energy from the fuel. The RX8 engine has much lower exhaust temperature confirming the lower fuel consumption. Another advantage of the Mazda wankel is it is ideally suited to turbo compounding which can result in a further drop of fuel consumption of 20%. this would result in an automatic 20% increase in range with the same fuel load. HP is also increased by 20% with no increase in the cooling system requirements!!*
* credits: Paul Lamar
02-20-2010, 08:00 AM
#2495
Registered
02-20-2010, 08:21 AM
#2496
Highly Modified Mazda's in rich guy plane's in New York maybe.
I deliver stuff to a couple airport and the motors pretty much go from the car to the kit plane.
The reason for putting mazda's in planes is for the cost factor, build aviation engines (rotax) are crazy expensive. maybe it's different in USA?
I deliver stuff to a couple airport and the motors pretty much go from the car to the kit plane.
The reason for putting mazda's in planes is for the cost factor, build aviation engines (rotax) are crazy expensive. maybe it's different in USA?
02-20-2010, 09:41 AM
#2497
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I am very well aware of Richard Sohn's adapter and how it works, however I took the view that it wasn't a suitable after market product for my S1 Renesis. There are around 5000 RX8's sold in the US every month, so do the math on the "oil problems".
For sure it's a failsafe adapter for the aero engine application, which I believe is also used because of it's superior power/weight ratio over piston engines. If you would like to read more, see this: http://www.rotaryeng.net/Sport-av-art.html
The point I am making is in aircraft, the operating environment is vastly different to the car/road one.
For sure it's a failsafe adapter for the aero engine application, which I believe is also used because of it's superior power/weight ratio over piston engines. If you would like to read more, see this: http://www.rotaryeng.net/Sport-av-art.html
The point I am making is in aircraft, the operating environment is vastly different to the car/road one.
02-20-2010, 09:52 AM
#2498
Registered
I am very well aware of Richard Sohn's adapter and how it works, however I took the view that it wasn't a suitable after market product for my S1 Renesis. There are around 5000 RX8's sold in the US every month, so do the math on the "oil problems".
For sure it's a failsafe adapter for the aero engine application, which I believe is also used because of it's superior power/weight ratio over piston engines. If you would like to read more, see this: http://www.rotaryeng.net/Sport-av-art.html
The point I am making is in aircraft, the operating environment is vastly different to the car/road one.
For sure it's a failsafe adapter for the aero engine application, which I believe is also used because of it's superior power/weight ratio over piston engines. If you would like to read more, see this: http://www.rotaryeng.net/Sport-av-art.html
The point I am making is in aircraft, the operating environment is vastly different to the car/road one.
Now, where do you get the ridiculous idea that there are 5,000 RX-8s sold in the US every month??? In fact, there were 92 RX-8s sold last month in the US:
http://www.mazdausamedia.com/files/M...%20'10.xls
You're off by 5,435%. Please stop posting about things you know nothing about.
Last edited by robrecht; 02-20-2010 at 09:56 AM.
02-20-2010, 11:37 AM
#2499
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don't quote 2009 figures only, you are being selective with the facts! Check the previous years from the launch of the first RX8...you shoot from the hip!
...and when was the last time you did a loop in your RX?
Aircraft wankels run at near maximum revs most of the flight, unlike car engines! Are you telling me the operating environment is the same?...I think not! Then you have the problem of gravity...or lack of it! Your sump oil is no longer in the sump!!!
...and when was the last time you did a loop in your RX?
Aircraft wankels run at near maximum revs most of the flight, unlike car engines! Are you telling me the operating environment is the same?...I think not! Then you have the problem of gravity...or lack of it! Your sump oil is no longer in the sump!!!
No, the point you were trying to make was that premix was used in aircraft rotary engines because the factory OMP system was disabled, which is certainly not true for those aircraft rotaries that use the Sohn adapter, which was developed for aviation rotaries.
Now, where do you get the ridiculous idea that there are 5,000 RX-8s sold in the US every month??? In fact, there were 92 RX-8s sold last month in the US:
http://www.mazdausamedia.com/files/M...%20'10.xls
You're off by 5,435%. Please stop posting about things you know nothing about.
Now, where do you get the ridiculous idea that there are 5,000 RX-8s sold in the US every month??? In fact, there were 92 RX-8s sold last month in the US:
http://www.mazdausamedia.com/files/M...%20'10.xls
You're off by 5,435%. Please stop posting about things you know nothing about.
Last edited by Onyx57; 02-20-2010 at 11:40 AM.
02-20-2010, 12:36 PM
#2500
Registered
Are you unable to read English? No intelligent and literate person could possibly interpret my words to mean that. Or are you just grasping at straws to try and win a nonexistent argument by putting words in other peoples' mouth? Not worth my time.
Last edited by robrecht; 02-20-2010 at 01:48 PM.