Gas/Oil Premix Thread
02-20-2010, 01:03 PM
#2501
Trained true Killers
don't quote 2009 figures only, you are being selective with the facts! Check the previous years from the launch of the first RX8...you shoot from the hip!
...and when was the last time you did a loop in your RX?
Aircraft wankels run at near maximum revs most of the flight, unlike car engines! Are you telling me the operating environment is the same?...I think not! Then you have the problem of gravity...or lack of it! Your sump oil is no longer in the sump!!!
...and when was the last time you did a loop in your RX?
Aircraft wankels run at near maximum revs most of the flight, unlike car engines! Are you telling me the operating environment is the same?...I think not! Then you have the problem of gravity...or lack of it! Your sump oil is no longer in the sump!!!
02-20-2010, 01:28 PM
#2503
Trained true Killers
you will get many diffrent opinons on this but I just use what ever low smoke blend the parts store is selling. It keeps it simple that way and has worked great for me fro the past 20,000mi
02-20-2010, 03:39 PM
#2505
The gravity remark is mostly retarted. For real, a rx-8 pulling hard lateral G's would be more worrysome as in aircraft turns are mostly still in a up down maneuver. Please stop making stupid remarks, I brought up the aviation thing because it is interesting LOWCOST airplanes that are running most similar setups with different applications. Want to learn or just bitch for another 100 pages.
good question? I have put on 11k kilometers.
good question? I have put on 11k kilometers.
02-20-2010, 06:10 PM
#2507
Trained true Killers
[quote=Chad D.;3440320]The gravity remark is mostly retarted. For real, a rx-8 pulling hard lateral G's would be more worrysome as in aircraft turns are mostly still in a up down maneuver. Please stop making stupid remarks, I brought up the aviation thing because it is interesting LOWCOST airplanes that are running most similar setups with different applications. Want to learn or just bitch for another 100 pages.
THANK YOU it's a f#@king cessna not a f-16 you tool last I checked Cessna's were not pulling a lot of G's
THANK YOU it's a f#@king cessna not a f-16 you tool last I checked Cessna's were not pulling a lot of G's
02-20-2010, 06:20 PM
#2508
Highly informative thread on 7club in the 3rd gen section. Read up.
http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=887275
http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=887275
02-20-2010, 07:49 PM
#2510
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errr....you don't fly a plane do u? If u do please don't take me along! The most u could pull in an RX is significantly less than in flight! Please stop asking me to stop making stupid remarks and address the issue!
The gravity remark is mostly retarted. For real, a rx-8 pulling hard lateral G's would be more worrysome as in aircraft turns are mostly still in a up down maneuver. Please stop making stupid remarks, I brought up the aviation thing because it is interesting LOWCOST airplanes that are running most similar setups with different applications. Want to learn or just bitch for another 100 pages.
good question? I have put on 11k kilometers.
good question? I have put on 11k kilometers.
02-20-2010, 07:57 PM
#2511
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in anticipation of awakening the carbonlock gods, I'll suggest that the more u mod the engine the more problems you will encounter? So the "fixes" become self defeating. I'll retire from this thread because I'm "preaching to the converted", so it will be a test of faith?
02-20-2010, 08:03 PM
#2512
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check your own figures, I did for mine. I'm not going to spoon feed you.
Has anyone here pushing 2 stroke oils actually checked the ash content (residues) of current API 4 stroke diesel and engine oils, or is that another "stupid" comment?
Has anyone here pushing 2 stroke oils actually checked the ash content (residues) of current API 4 stroke diesel and engine oils, or is that another "stupid" comment?
Your claim was: "There are around 5000 RX8's sold in the US every month." If you want to retract and revise that ridiculous claim, I suggest you look up the facts. (BTW, last month was already 2010.) The only time Mazda ever exported 5,000 RX-8s outside of Japan was for 6 months of 2003, and the last time I saw sales figures posted here, there were two months in 2004 when US sales peaked at about 2,500/month. Those numbers were not verified so if you have any facts at your disposal, please share.
Are you unable to read English? No intelligent and literate person could possibly interpret my words to mean that. Or are you just grasping at straws to try and win a nonexistent argument by putting words in other peoples' mouth? Not worth my time.
Are you unable to read English? No intelligent and literate person could possibly interpret my words to mean that. Or are you just grasping at straws to try and win a nonexistent argument by putting words in other peoples' mouth? Not worth my time.
Last edited by Onyx57; 02-20-2010 at 08:07 PM.
02-20-2010, 08:25 PM
#2513
I have been taking aviation classes, and I don't fly jets or anything, and the g's are not what you would think. I have done some classes at the panoz racing school and I thought I was going to **** myself, so I just base it on that.
The sales figures robrecht posted are more truthful than your own.
That link posted by SayNoToPistons was good and very relevant.
These mods are not complicating things rather separating the dirty from the clean, it is not only 4cycle oil that gets burned but everything else that gets cycled around over thousands of miles. Even alot of oil changes won't "fix" it, because, if you've ever changed your own oil and got it all out you are my hero, because I can't, so much dirty oil stays in there. Instead of jumping the gun, listen, learn, add input, critical information is essential, BS is not. Read what a sohn adapter does and if you don't like the concept of that, or premixing your fuel, you can go **** yourself for wasting our time and the time of future readers.
The sales figures robrecht posted are more truthful than your own.
That link posted by SayNoToPistons was good and very relevant.
These mods are not complicating things rather separating the dirty from the clean, it is not only 4cycle oil that gets burned but everything else that gets cycled around over thousands of miles. Even alot of oil changes won't "fix" it, because, if you've ever changed your own oil and got it all out you are my hero, because I can't, so much dirty oil stays in there. Instead of jumping the gun, listen, learn, add input, critical information is essential, BS is not. Read what a sohn adapter does and if you don't like the concept of that, or premixing your fuel, you can go **** yourself for wasting our time and the time of future readers.
02-20-2010, 08:43 PM
#2514
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haha..thanks you for the self pleasuring advice! Like I said before, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, so when all else fails the "go **** yourself" routine usually works!!!
I have been taking aviation classes, and I don't fly jets or anything, and the g's are not what you would think. I have done some classes at the panoz racing school and I thought I was going to **** myself, so I just base it on that.
The sales figures robrecht posted are more truthful than your own.
That link posted by SayNoToPistons was good and very relevant.
These mods are not complicating things rather separating the dirty from the clean, it is not only 4cycle oil that gets burned but everything else that gets cycled around over thousands of miles. Even alot of oil changes won't "fix" it, because, if you've ever changed your own oil and got it all out you are my hero, because I can't, so much dirty oil stays in there. Instead of jumping the gun, listen, learn, add input, critical information is essential, BS is not. Read what a sohn adapter does and if you don't like the concept of that, or premixing your fuel, you can go **** yourself for wasting our time and the time of future readers.
The sales figures robrecht posted are more truthful than your own.
That link posted by SayNoToPistons was good and very relevant.
These mods are not complicating things rather separating the dirty from the clean, it is not only 4cycle oil that gets burned but everything else that gets cycled around over thousands of miles. Even alot of oil changes won't "fix" it, because, if you've ever changed your own oil and got it all out you are my hero, because I can't, so much dirty oil stays in there. Instead of jumping the gun, listen, learn, add input, critical information is essential, BS is not. Read what a sohn adapter does and if you don't like the concept of that, or premixing your fuel, you can go **** yourself for wasting our time and the time of future readers.
02-21-2010, 01:09 AM
#2517
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ok dipshit, who is talking about pulling G, when you fly upside where do u think the oil is? Same goes for your brains, when they fall outta ur *** due to gravity!!
[QUOTE=the1jesster;3440458]
[QUOTE=the1jesster;3440458]
The gravity remark is mostly retarted. For real, a rx-8 pulling hard lateral G's would be more worrysome as in aircraft turns are mostly still in a up down maneuver. Please stop making stupid remarks, I brought up the aviation thing because it is interesting LOWCOST airplanes that are running most similar setups with different applications. Want to learn or just bitch for another 100 pages.
THANK YOU it's a f#@king cessna not a f-16 you tool last I checked Cessna's were not pulling a lot of G's
THANK YOU it's a f#@king cessna not a f-16 you tool last I checked Cessna's were not pulling a lot of G's
02-21-2010, 10:28 AM
#2518
Registered
Average Monthly US RX-8 Sales:
2010: 92
2009: 185
2008: 281
2007: 481
2006: 779
2005: 1223
2004: 1974
2003: 2058 (July through December)
2008 & 2009: http://www.mazdausamedia.com/files/M...%20'09.xls
2007 & 2008: http://www.mazdausamedia.com/files/M...0'08_0.xls
2006 & 2005: http://www.mazdausamedia.com/content...ber-2006-sales
No official links for 2003 & 2004 US sales figures here, but discussion still available here on RX8club.com
Last edited by robrecht; 02-21-2010 at 10:37 AM.
02-21-2010, 06:23 PM
#2521
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
Wow, I posted the emails for some intelligent debate. Onyx just chill or go away, your not bringing anything constructive into the discussion.
The motors they are speaking of are stock Renesis' kitted to fit in a plane. These are not stunt planes or race planes. They stated the engines cruise at 7,000RPM's 90% of the time. Not sure what EMS they are running but I will find out what EMS they are running etc. to see if they increased the OMP rates.
The motors they are speaking of are stock Renesis' kitted to fit in a plane. These are not stunt planes or race planes. They stated the engines cruise at 7,000RPM's 90% of the time. Not sure what EMS they are running but I will find out what EMS they are running etc. to see if they increased the OMP rates.
Email #1
Good questions Scott and I wish I knew all of the answers. I can tell you that none of the Renesis engines in aircraft service have had any of those reported problems in cars. Mine is the earliest model (2004) and is making more power and has better compression than when new. I use only pre-mix oil & fuel. The engine never revs over 7400 rpm but it is used at full throttle a lot. Mine has about 600 flight hours on it so far.
Even the Renesis used with a supercharger (in airplane) has been trouble free on pre-mix oil.
My experience with all models of the rotary engine indicates that pre-mix is the single best thing you can do for rotary engine health and longevity. I have not used the Sohn adapter myself but if properly set up I think it is far better than the factory oiling system.
I'd like to hear of any results or observations you obtain in auto use.
Email #2
HI Scott - this is a topic that could take a long time to answer, so I will give the "30,000" ft summary.
All rotary engines (13B, 12A, Renesis) typically fail in the car due to carbon buildup at about 100,000. The cause of the failure is carbon build up on the apex seals. Seals stick. Poor compression. Car don't start. Overhaul time
We believe (and have proven it in the aviation community) that the cause of the carbon build up is because Mazda injects engine oil into the combustion chamber. Engine oil is great stuff to lubricate your engines moving parts BUT is a bad idea in a combustion chamber. Engine oil contains all sorts of additives that are good for your engine but cause excessive carbon build up when burned (detergents, etc).
We NEVER inject engine oil into the chamber. We use ONLY 2 stroke oil (which by design, is meant to burn) with a little Marvel Mystery Oil (a long time secret of old time aviators). We have several examples of engines flying hundreds of hours ( a LOT of mileage in a car); the engine was taken apart for some other reason and the apex seals are still clean and fall right out of the grooves - no sticking and no carbon.
So... the short of it is - do not burn engine oil in the chamber. Either us the injection pump with 2 stroke oil OR PREMIX your oil in your gas.
Email #3
Should have mentioned oil as that may be a factor. I use Mobile1 15-50 due to the constant high throttle use and the fact that my propeller gear reduction drive uses the engine oiling system for its lubrication. Normal oil temp is 180 and I use 210 F as a redline. If it gets that hot I back off enough to keep it there or less.
For premix oil I use any good quality 2 stroke mixed 50-50 with Marvel Mystery oil. The MMO keeps the seal grooves cleaner than anything else I've found. Stuck seals are one of the biggest causes of rotary overhauls. When I disassemble an engine the seals will fall out of the grooves when run with this stuff. I use about 3 to 4 ounces of this mixture per 5 gallons of fuel.
Good questions Scott and I wish I knew all of the answers. I can tell you that none of the Renesis engines in aircraft service have had any of those reported problems in cars. Mine is the earliest model (2004) and is making more power and has better compression than when new. I use only pre-mix oil & fuel. The engine never revs over 7400 rpm but it is used at full throttle a lot. Mine has about 600 flight hours on it so far.
Even the Renesis used with a supercharger (in airplane) has been trouble free on pre-mix oil.
My experience with all models of the rotary engine indicates that pre-mix is the single best thing you can do for rotary engine health and longevity. I have not used the Sohn adapter myself but if properly set up I think it is far better than the factory oiling system.
I'd like to hear of any results or observations you obtain in auto use.
Email #2
HI Scott - this is a topic that could take a long time to answer, so I will give the "30,000" ft summary.
All rotary engines (13B, 12A, Renesis) typically fail in the car due to carbon buildup at about 100,000. The cause of the failure is carbon build up on the apex seals. Seals stick. Poor compression. Car don't start. Overhaul time
We believe (and have proven it in the aviation community) that the cause of the carbon build up is because Mazda injects engine oil into the combustion chamber. Engine oil is great stuff to lubricate your engines moving parts BUT is a bad idea in a combustion chamber. Engine oil contains all sorts of additives that are good for your engine but cause excessive carbon build up when burned (detergents, etc).
We NEVER inject engine oil into the chamber. We use ONLY 2 stroke oil (which by design, is meant to burn) with a little Marvel Mystery Oil (a long time secret of old time aviators). We have several examples of engines flying hundreds of hours ( a LOT of mileage in a car); the engine was taken apart for some other reason and the apex seals are still clean and fall right out of the grooves - no sticking and no carbon.
So... the short of it is - do not burn engine oil in the chamber. Either us the injection pump with 2 stroke oil OR PREMIX your oil in your gas.
Email #3
Should have mentioned oil as that may be a factor. I use Mobile1 15-50 due to the constant high throttle use and the fact that my propeller gear reduction drive uses the engine oiling system for its lubrication. Normal oil temp is 180 and I use 210 F as a redline. If it gets that hot I back off enough to keep it there or less.
For premix oil I use any good quality 2 stroke mixed 50-50 with Marvel Mystery oil. The MMO keeps the seal grooves cleaner than anything else I've found. Stuck seals are one of the biggest causes of rotary overhauls. When I disassemble an engine the seals will fall out of the grooves when run with this stuff. I use about 3 to 4 ounces of this mixture per 5 gallons of fuel.
Last edited by 9krpmrx8; 02-21-2010 at 06:29 PM.
02-21-2010, 09:22 PM
#2522
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yah...sorry,..my typo mistake, should have read per year not month, but I think your summary is not correct, if you look at the year to month figures and % increases in sales. No matter, I believe (though you are free to verify) Mazda sold close to 200,000 RX8's worldwide to date, so the point I am making is are there 200,000 screwed up motors out there because they are not using premix, synthetic oil (other than Mazda or Idemitsu?) etc...? I think not.
Whatever you care to justify, aircraft rotary applications are in no way similar to road or race applications. so using premix for aero engines doesn't qualify the same use for road engines. Maybe race yes, on the old RX7's. Similarly using premix or synthetic oils will not prolong the life of your engine, and failures by using modifications can occur any time, so kinda pointless saying "well I been using this **** for 30k and so far no problems"!
A lot of engine failures have been directly attributed to poorly modified engines and unfortunately that has given the RX8 a BAD reputation, which, in my opinion is unjustified. I don't work for Mazda either! The other "faults" with the car are not even engine related, but because sometimes someone has messed with the engine.
What am I contributing to this forum? I dunno really,... maybe you pays your money money and you take your choice and live with the consequences. Just not to believe everything you read?
Whatever you care to justify, aircraft rotary applications are in no way similar to road or race applications. so using premix for aero engines doesn't qualify the same use for road engines. Maybe race yes, on the old RX7's. Similarly using premix or synthetic oils will not prolong the life of your engine, and failures by using modifications can occur any time, so kinda pointless saying "well I been using this **** for 30k and so far no problems"!
A lot of engine failures have been directly attributed to poorly modified engines and unfortunately that has given the RX8 a BAD reputation, which, in my opinion is unjustified. I don't work for Mazda either! The other "faults" with the car are not even engine related, but because sometimes someone has messed with the engine.
What am I contributing to this forum? I dunno really,... maybe you pays your money money and you take your choice and live with the consequences. Just not to believe everything you read?
No one should believe anything you say:
Average Monthly US RX-8 Sales:
2010: 92
2009: 185
2008: 281
2007: 481
2006: 779
2005: 1223
2004: 1974
2003: 2058 (July through December)
2008 & 2009: http://www.mazdausamedia.com/files/M...%20'09.xls
2007 & 2008: http://www.mazdausamedia.com/files/M...0'08_0.xls
2006 & 2005: http://www.mazdausamedia.com/content...ber-2006-sales
No official links for 2003 & 2004 US sales figures here, but discussion still available here on RX8club.com
Average Monthly US RX-8 Sales:
2010: 92
2009: 185
2008: 281
2007: 481
2006: 779
2005: 1223
2004: 1974
2003: 2058 (July through December)
2008 & 2009: http://www.mazdausamedia.com/files/M...%20'09.xls
2007 & 2008: http://www.mazdausamedia.com/files/M...0'08_0.xls
2006 & 2005: http://www.mazdausamedia.com/content...ber-2006-sales
No official links for 2003 & 2004 US sales figures here, but discussion still available here on RX8club.com
WTF are you talking about?
02-21-2010, 09:34 PM
#2524
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
Your not contributing at all actually.
Both of my previous engines (yes I am on my third in 106,000 miles) were not modified and were maintained perfectly (verified to get Mazda to cover).
I don't believe everything I read and I know that the dealer that did my engine has done a couple hundred replacements. Yes, that's one dealer in a city with four Mazda Dealerships. You do the math nationwide
Not to mention that there is a member here (used to be anyway) who works at the reman plant and has verified what most of the failures are and it doesn't have **** to do with modified engines.
The largest re builders aside from Mazda frequent this site. Why don't you see what they have to say and then come back.
I'm not bashing you brother but you really don't know what you are talking about.
Both of my previous engines (yes I am on my third in 106,000 miles) were not modified and were maintained perfectly (verified to get Mazda to cover).
I don't believe everything I read and I know that the dealer that did my engine has done a couple hundred replacements. Yes, that's one dealer in a city with four Mazda Dealerships. You do the math nationwide
Not to mention that there is a member here (used to be anyway) who works at the reman plant and has verified what most of the failures are and it doesn't have **** to do with modified engines.
The largest re builders aside from Mazda frequent this site. Why don't you see what they have to say and then come back.
I'm not bashing you brother but you really don't know what you are talking about.
Last edited by 9krpmrx8; 02-21-2010 at 09:37 PM.
02-21-2010, 09:48 PM
#2525
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funny then how I never even came across ANY of these issues on my first RX, and 186k miles later, original engine! No replacements other than a cat I think, ...I cannot be the only "lucky" one! Hundreds of replacements? We believe what we want to hear?
Why do u keep saying I don't know what I am talking about, like you have to NOT believe me?? I talk and deal with a lot of people in the business, and it's not as you say. Sorry but not all re-builders can carry out forensics on what caused the failures!! By the time the damage is done, it's a whole host of factors, am I right?? Read your own posts!
"Should have mentioned oil as that may be a factor. I use Mobile1 15-50 due to the constant high throttle use and the fact that my propeller gear reduction drive uses the engine oiling system for its lubrication. Normal oil temp is 180 and I use 210 F as a redline. If it gets that hot I back off enough to keep it there or less."
Why do u keep saying I don't know what I am talking about, like you have to NOT believe me?? I talk and deal with a lot of people in the business, and it's not as you say. Sorry but not all re-builders can carry out forensics on what caused the failures!! By the time the damage is done, it's a whole host of factors, am I right?? Read your own posts!
"Should have mentioned oil as that may be a factor. I use Mobile1 15-50 due to the constant high throttle use and the fact that my propeller gear reduction drive uses the engine oiling system for its lubrication. Normal oil temp is 180 and I use 210 F as a redline. If it gets that hot I back off enough to keep it there or less."
Your not contributing at all actually.
Both of my previous engines (yes I am on my third in 106,000 miles) were not modified and were maintained perfectly (verified to get Mazda to cover).
I don't believe everything I read and I know that the dealer that did my engine has done a couple hundred replacements. Yes, that's one dealer in a city with four Mazda Dealerships. You do the math nationwide
Not to mention that there is a member here (used to be anyway) who works at the reman plant and has verified what most of the failures are and it doesn't have **** to do with modified engines.
The largest re builders aside from Mazda frequent this site. Why don't you see what they have to say and then come back.
I'm not bashing you brother but you really don't know what you are talking about.
Both of my previous engines (yes I am on my third in 106,000 miles) were not modified and were maintained perfectly (verified to get Mazda to cover).
I don't believe everything I read and I know that the dealer that did my engine has done a couple hundred replacements. Yes, that's one dealer in a city with four Mazda Dealerships. You do the math nationwide
Not to mention that there is a member here (used to be anyway) who works at the reman plant and has verified what most of the failures are and it doesn't have **** to do with modified engines.
The largest re builders aside from Mazda frequent this site. Why don't you see what they have to say and then come back.
I'm not bashing you brother but you really don't know what you are talking about.