Gas/Oil Premix Thread
04-10-2010, 09:14 AM
#2731
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... Lubricious Cleaners (will provide additional lubricity to supplement OMP oil with good cleaning as well - these could be used alone for moderate additional lube or combined with 2-cycle for much more lubrication with the added cleaning)
- Lube Control FP Plus for Gasoline - IMHO, best cleaner/UCL out there
- Marvel Mystery Oil (MMO) - very good lube/cleaner that is cheap with easy access
- Redline SI-1 - good cleaner with just a little lubricity, much less lubricity than the rest on this list)
- Lucas Fuel Additive (UCL) - good lubricant, average cleaning, and only to be used alone though, do not mix with other 2-cycle
- Schaffer's Neutra 131 - very good cleaner lube but expensive and must be bought by mail order in bulk. Schaffers also has another gas add that is supposed to be good as well. ...
- Lube Control FP Plus for Gasoline - IMHO, best cleaner/UCL out there
- Marvel Mystery Oil (MMO) - very good lube/cleaner that is cheap with easy access
- Redline SI-1 - good cleaner with just a little lubricity, much less lubricity than the rest on this list)
- Lucas Fuel Additive (UCL) - good lubricant, average cleaning, and only to be used alone though, do not mix with other 2-cycle
- Schaffer's Neutra 131 - very good cleaner lube but expensive and must be bought by mail order in bulk. Schaffers also has another gas add that is supposed to be good as well. ...
While we are on the subject, one more tidbit of information for those that are interested in Lube Control Products.
One of the key ingredients in all LC products (but not the only one by any means) - LC20, FP60, and now FP Plus - and what makes all them very unique, is the use of Cyclohexanone.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclohexanone
Cyclohexanone is a very lubricious solvent that performs multiple functions in LC products - it lubricates, it is an antioxidant, a stabilizer, it cleans, and it gets rid of water.
But the really, really cool thing about Cyclohexanone is how it cleans - it takes Carbon and Sludge, and it emulsifies them, turning them into a "colloidal graphite" lubricant. It essentially takes something very harmful for you engine and converts it into something very beneficial - a very, very good lubricant. This is one of the primary reasons I am so high on these LC products - nothing else out there does this.
BTW - this is why it is also such a great product set for the 8 - it takes the rotary's biggest detriment, carbon generation, and turns it into an asset - by converting carbon into a colloidal lubricant!!!
Other interesting facts:
- Cyclohexanone is what gives all LC products it's very unique aromatic smell - those that have used them know what I am talking about.
- Cyclohexanone's only drawback is that it evaporates over time with heat and why LC20 must be replenished in the oil every 1000 miles. No issue for FP products as they are used up before evaporation becomes an issue.
One of the key ingredients in all LC products (but not the only one by any means) - LC20, FP60, and now FP Plus - and what makes all them very unique, is the use of Cyclohexanone.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclohexanone
Cyclohexanone is a very lubricious solvent that performs multiple functions in LC products - it lubricates, it is an antioxidant, a stabilizer, it cleans, and it gets rid of water.
But the really, really cool thing about Cyclohexanone is how it cleans - it takes Carbon and Sludge, and it emulsifies them, turning them into a "colloidal graphite" lubricant. It essentially takes something very harmful for you engine and converts it into something very beneficial - a very, very good lubricant. This is one of the primary reasons I am so high on these LC products - nothing else out there does this.
BTW - this is why it is also such a great product set for the 8 - it takes the rotary's biggest detriment, carbon generation, and turns it into an asset - by converting carbon into a colloidal lubricant!!!
Other interesting facts:
- Cyclohexanone is what gives all LC products it's very unique aromatic smell - those that have used them know what I am talking about.
- Cyclohexanone's only drawback is that it evaporates over time with heat and why LC20 must be replenished in the oil every 1000 miles. No issue for FP products as they are used up before evaporation becomes an issue.
Then I noticed that the original poster in this serpentine leviathan thread used premix from 800 miles. A few months later, he started using FP60 exclusively as a premix for it's "lubricative and cleaning properties." Don't know how long he continued that practice, but a couple of years later, his engine died at 49k, just like so many others. Note his RX-8 was also an auto in a hot climate with lots of stop&go traffic, so it would be silly to blame his engine failure on his use of FP. Then I heard of another engine failure at 40k from a premixer (from about 10k miles) using the popular Idemitsu & FP+ combo in a MT in a cooler climate with little stop & go traffic. Of course, these are just two cases, but worth thinking and asking about IMHO.
Some people say that some/most/all 2-stroke oils have 20-30% solvents/detergents/dispersants included in them already anyway so I'm thinking that the addition of another 'cleaner', even a so-called lubricious one is maybe not always such a good idea. I'm going back to just using a good 2-stroke premix as many of the smart guys here have been doing and advising.
By the way, here's OMCWankel's thread over at BITOG after he quit this forum:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...1367910&page=1
Last edited by robrecht; 04-10-2010 at 09:22 AM.
04-10-2010, 10:24 AM
#2732
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Bob the Oil Guy's site has got some very good postings!
I've been wondering about this whole 'lubricious cleaner' part of the premix question for a while now. First of all, even the dirty 4-stroke engine oil in the stock OMP seems to keep the parts of the rotor relatively clean, at least in the minimal areas that are covered by the stock system.
Then I noticed that the original poster in this serpentine leviathan thread used premix from 800 miles. A few months later, he started using FP60 exclusively as a premix for it's "lubricative and cleaning properties." Don't know how long he continued that practice, but a couple of years later, his engine died at 49k, just like so many others. Note his RX-8 was also an auto in a hot climate with lots of stop&go traffic, so it would be silly to blame his engine failure on his use of FP. Then I heard of another engine failure at 40k from a premixer (from about 10k miles) using the popular Idemitsu & FP+ combo in a MT in a cooler climate with little stop & go traffic. Of course, these are just two cases, but worth thinking and asking about IMHO.
Some people say that some/most/all 2-stroke oils have 20-30% solvents/detergents/dispersants included in them already anyway so I'm thinking that the addition of another 'cleaner', even a so-called lubricious one is maybe not always such a good idea. I'm going back to just using a good 2-stroke premix as many of the smart guys here have been doing and advising.
By the way, here's OMCWankel's thread over at BITOG after he quit this forum:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...1367910&page=1
Then I noticed that the original poster in this serpentine leviathan thread used premix from 800 miles. A few months later, he started using FP60 exclusively as a premix for it's "lubricative and cleaning properties." Don't know how long he continued that practice, but a couple of years later, his engine died at 49k, just like so many others. Note his RX-8 was also an auto in a hot climate with lots of stop&go traffic, so it would be silly to blame his engine failure on his use of FP. Then I heard of another engine failure at 40k from a premixer (from about 10k miles) using the popular Idemitsu & FP+ combo in a MT in a cooler climate with little stop & go traffic. Of course, these are just two cases, but worth thinking and asking about IMHO.
Some people say that some/most/all 2-stroke oils have 20-30% solvents/detergents/dispersants included in them already anyway so I'm thinking that the addition of another 'cleaner', even a so-called lubricious one is maybe not always such a good idea. I'm going back to just using a good 2-stroke premix as many of the smart guys here have been doing and advising.
By the way, here's OMCWankel's thread over at BITOG after he quit this forum:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...1367910&page=1
04-10-2010, 07:21 PM
#2733
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Update.
As of today, I have officially stopped Lucas UCL as my sole pre-mix and started using 4 oz of Idemitsu at my only premix. I need to echo a bit of Robrecht words that the whole idea of "Lubrcious cleaners" are dubious as best. Although I have much faith in LUCL, the fact of the matter is that there is Idemitsu pre-mix which is claimed to be made for our engines vs I can take chances with something like LUCL which would probably help but have no real empirical evidence that the manufacturer can claim like Idemitsu can. So when it comes down to it, there is a product out there for us and trying to experiment when there isn't a need to is well... a waste a money. So there you go.
What it comes down to it imo is really two choices: Idemitsu pre-mix or not to pre-mix at all. There are very few instances in which I would adapt a all-or-nothing mentality, but this would be it. Can we one day decide which of the two really extends the life for S1 engines, yes maybe, and only time would tell.
2c.
-Chris
As of today, I have officially stopped Lucas UCL as my sole pre-mix and started using 4 oz of Idemitsu at my only premix. I need to echo a bit of Robrecht words that the whole idea of "Lubrcious cleaners" are dubious as best. Although I have much faith in LUCL, the fact of the matter is that there is Idemitsu pre-mix which is claimed to be made for our engines vs I can take chances with something like LUCL which would probably help but have no real empirical evidence that the manufacturer can claim like Idemitsu can. So when it comes down to it, there is a product out there for us and trying to experiment when there isn't a need to is well... a waste a money. So there you go.
What it comes down to it imo is really two choices: Idemitsu pre-mix or not to pre-mix at all. There are very few instances in which I would adapt a all-or-nothing mentality, but this would be it. Can we one day decide which of the two really extends the life for S1 engines, yes maybe, and only time would tell.
2c.
-Chris
Last edited by RX8.PIPE.DREAMS; 04-10-2010 at 07:24 PM.
04-10-2010, 09:22 PM
#2734
I have been trying to get some Idemitsu oil (not premix, I got like a case), but ... I gotta get it online cuz I just can't find any local dealer (or am I blind? lol)
I premix nothing but Idemitsu only. 8oz per tank ful. I got a reman engine, and god knows what part is "re-use" inside. Premix since day 1. and have been using 10w40 or heavier oil since 500 miles of the reman engine's life. lets see how long it would last.
I premix nothing but Idemitsu only. 8oz per tank ful. I got a reman engine, and god knows what part is "re-use" inside. Premix since day 1. and have been using 10w40 or heavier oil since 500 miles of the reman engine's life. lets see how long it would last.
04-10-2010, 10:13 PM
#2735
Idemitsu fanbois, i've seen it all....
There are many high quality 2cy oils out there.
I do agree strongly with not running cleaner as premix all the time.
I have used the cleaners but I don't premix for that cycle, I have been doing that since 1999.
There are many high quality 2cy oils out there.
I do agree strongly with not running cleaner as premix all the time.
I have used the cleaners but I don't premix for that cycle, I have been doing that since 1999.
04-11-2010, 06:25 PM
#2737
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http://www.ilacorp.com/images/web_premix.pdf
As it so stated: It has detergents and "reduces deposits and exhaust clogging." So it should lubricate and clean, and it claims its made for the rotary specifically. Lastly, in the past, I have a stickler for CAT longevity, but the more I think about it, the more I questioned: How is it better that the engine is burning 4-stroke oil (from the crankcase) and not the Idemitsu pre-mix oil which is designed for rotary engines and designed to be burned off. So if anything is it more of a detriment to the Cat imo to burn the crankcase 4-stoke oils. Of course I am not getting a SOHN adapter any time soon so I have to do the best with what I have.
Thanks for reading.
-Chris
Last edited by RX8.PIPE.DREAMS; 04-11-2010 at 06:28 PM.
04-12-2010, 01:18 PM
#2738
I am beginning to think that using premix is not doing a dang thing in extending engine life for the Renesis?
Seems to me its more of a heat, bad gas (carboning) and too high rpms issue/issues than anything else.
I dont have any proof to back it up---just overall observation/summation.
I used to be convinced it was THE thing to do. Now I am not so sure.
OD
Seems to me its more of a heat, bad gas (carboning) and too high rpms issue/issues than anything else.
I dont have any proof to back it up---just overall observation/summation.
I used to be convinced it was THE thing to do. Now I am not so sure.
OD
04-12-2010, 01:22 PM
#2739
Uhm... there's uneven apex seal wear on most of the engines that i tore down that had over 60.000km and did not premix 
Maybe we should discuss the effective percentages that are needed!
Maybe we should discuss the effective percentages that are needed!
04-12-2010, 05:16 PM
#2741
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Premixed from the start? It's sometimes hard to say. So many of us bought used and have no idea what the original owner did but it's usually a pretty safe bet that previous owners did not premix. I don't think that many people here started premixing until the changes in the 2009 engine became known. How many miles does it take to start showing uneven wear on the apex seals?
Last edited by robrecht; 04-12-2010 at 05:21 PM.
04-12-2010, 08:58 PM
#2742
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Here are the reasons i have learned here in the last 6 months why I premix:
- Proper oil for burning.
- Clean oil rather than just from the pan (I don't plan to go to a Sohn until after warranty).
- Oil getting to more places along the seals.
- The idea that when you decel in gear that there may be limited oil for the seals. (Coming down from high rpm at the track.)
I still think its a good idea. My engine had 19K on it before I got to it. I'll never know, but I will do what i think makes sense.
- Proper oil for burning.
- Clean oil rather than just from the pan (I don't plan to go to a Sohn until after warranty).
- Oil getting to more places along the seals.
- The idea that when you decel in gear that there may be limited oil for the seals. (Coming down from high rpm at the track.)
I still think its a good idea. My engine had 19K on it before I got to it. I'll never know, but I will do what i think makes sense.
04-13-2010, 11:18 AM
#2743
thinking about this some more---i still dont know, but i guess Mazda had a reason to install the 3nd oil "injector". Do we have any evidence that the 09's -- actually use more oil for injection than the pre 09's? Is it an amount thing + wider coverage by placement of the center oil weep that Mazda did or is it just for wider coverage and no increase?
Airplane guys (MUCH more finicky about maintanence/engine performance) do not premix--they run the Sohn--but no premix.
IF the engine is driven correctly (yall know what I mean) and maintained right--i have not seen any hard evidence supporting pre mix. Especially with low pre mix percentages of 4 oz/15 gallons---come on!
I use on track no less than 1 oz/gal and I have used 1.5 oz/gal. At 1.5 oz/gal you can tell oil is getting there! If I pre mix on the street it is no less than 1/2 oz/gal.
Airplane guys (MUCH more finicky about maintanence/engine performance) do not premix--they run the Sohn--but no premix.
IF the engine is driven correctly (yall know what I mean) and maintained right--i have not seen any hard evidence supporting pre mix. Especially with low pre mix percentages of 4 oz/15 gallons---come on!
I use on track no less than 1 oz/gal and I have used 1.5 oz/gal. At 1.5 oz/gal you can tell oil is getting there! If I pre mix on the street it is no less than 1/2 oz/gal.
04-13-2010, 12:59 PM
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I've been wondering about this whole 'lubricious cleaner' part of the premix question for a while now. First of all, even the dirty 4-stroke engine oil in the stock OMP seems to keep the parts of the rotor relatively clean, at least in the minimal areas that are covered by the stock system.
Regarding premix, has anyone used it in a piston engine? Seems like it would be beneficial to run it when doing a seafoam soak.
04-13-2010, 04:53 PM
#2745
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04-13-2010, 06:06 PM
#2746
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thinking about this some more---i still dont know, but i guess Mazda had a reason to install the 3nd oil "injector". Do we have any evidence that the 09's -- actually use more oil for injection than the pre 09's? Is it an amount thing + wider coverage by placement of the center oil weep that Mazda did or is it just for wider coverage and no increase?
Airplane guys (MUCH more finicky about maintanence/engine performance) do not premix--they run the Sohn--but no premix.
IF the engine is driven correctly (yall know what I mean) and maintained right--i have not seen any hard evidence supporting pre mix. Especially with low pre mix percentages of 4 oz/15 gallons---come on!
I use on track no less than 1 oz/gal and I have used 1.5 oz/gal. At 1.5 oz/gal you can tell oil is getting there! If I pre mix on the street it is no less than 1/2 oz/gal.
Airplane guys (MUCH more finicky about maintanence/engine performance) do not premix--they run the Sohn--but no premix.
IF the engine is driven correctly (yall know what I mean) and maintained right--i have not seen any hard evidence supporting pre mix. Especially with low pre mix percentages of 4 oz/15 gallons---come on!
I use on track no less than 1 oz/gal and I have used 1.5 oz/gal. At 1.5 oz/gal you can tell oil is getting there! If I pre mix on the street it is no less than 1/2 oz/gal.
-Chris
04-13-2010, 06:12 PM
#2747
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That is also why some may choose to premix. Many of us don't have a SOHN and will not/cannot/do not change to a SOHN in the future. So premix is the way to get cleaner lube in there. Otherwise we'll just be stuck with dirty crankcase oil. On Expo1's thread, I believe Paul suggested that even 4 oz of premix may be on the high side, as he suggested to back down .5 oz to about 3.5oz per fillup. So 4 oz I believe is plenty.
-Chris
-Chris
Here is the link once again so it doesn't sound like I am speaking out of my ***.
http://www.ilacorp.com/images/web_premix.pdf
-Chris
04-13-2010, 06:17 PM
#2748
That is also why some may choose to premix. Many of us don't have a SOHN and will not/cannot/do not change to a SOHN in the future. So premix is the way to get cleaner lube in there. Otherwise we'll just be stuck with dirty crankcase oil. On Expo1's thread, I believe Paul suggested that even 4 oz of premix may be on the high side, as he suggested to back down .5 oz to about 3.5oz per fillup. So 4 oz I believe is plenty.
-Chris
-Chris
Last edited by Vlaze; 04-13-2010 at 06:20 PM.
04-13-2010, 06:42 PM
#2749
Airplanes are running between 6 and 7k rpms at a constant rate also, you can do that if you want. I drive my 8 at 4k most of the time, and my car also uses little oil during my daily driving for some reason so Premix just seems to make sence. Sohn adapters are prime.
04-13-2010, 09:10 PM
#2750
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I realized that and thats why I was saying about having cleaner lube if you premix. You would still have old crankcase oil but + cleaner purposeful lube (premix).