cliffkemp

there are no fallacies to it. Electrical current is not all that hard to understand. Hp can only be gained in one of two ways. Either you change the air/fuel ratio through a variety of methods such as FI or NOS or, you lighten up parts or make them smaller/larger depending on application. The second is just freeing up hp that is already there but putting it to use in another way such as changing pulleys or wheel sizes or lightening up parts on the car so that its hp/lb ratio is more favorable. Stock coils are just fine. Most of the time, its the connection that has gone bad that starts the cycle of the coil and/or spark plug to go out or not fire at all. This is part of the reason that when, sometimes, people change their coils, the terminal is now new for the plug wire to plug onto and power is restored. The same can be said for the plugs and wires as well.

cliffkemp

sorry got a little carried away my apologies.

cliffkemp

If I could find a car that had the stock coils in it and they were going to try to go above 330 whp, I would show it then. Most people that can afford to FI their car, will upgrade the ignition cause they heard that was best to do. I have a friend that had an srt-4 with the stock coil pack on it running 350 whp and had no issues. That is 135 more than stock and it is turboed even in base form. He used champion platinum plugs with the stock setting for the gap. He never had any issues and there are upgrades for it as well. He said he was not going to waste his money on them as the stock coil was fine.

The point is, if no one is willing to try and make sure that the connections are correct with the plugs, wires, and coils, there is no way to tell. It still comes down to if the coil is firing or not. Replacing the coil may have 'fixed' the problem but, it may have not been the coil rather the connection. No one ever looks at that aspect of it and just replaces it with an 'upgrade' and says, 'that fixed it so it must have been the coil'

pdxhak

iTrader: (2)

So it is your contention that no one here has done the proper analysis?

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

As it happens my car is just below that mark on stock coils with good leads . However , that is about as far as i can go with my current turbo.

I'm not disagreeing with you because I don't know any better . But I do know that the 330 barrier was only broken by upgrading the coils .
I'm sure a lot of effort went into plugs , leads , connections etc before it was decided that the coils were the issue ....

shazy

I'd upgrade my coils for 3 reasons

1: Smoother car and Acceleration

2: Last WAYYYY longer!

3: Good for extra mods

shaunv74

It's not just about electrical current. It's about combustion and how effective the ignition system is at producing it. A moving combustion chamber creates a much more turbulent environment in which to try and achieve complete combustion. Also each coil fires once per every 360 degrees. That's twice as much as a regular piston engine. It puts a higher demand on an ignition coil in terms of cycles per minute and heat.

So far you have only given general data about electronics. If you have some specific data about the ignition coils in our cars and their duty cycle vs. the RX8's cycle I am absolutely interested to hear it. the more information the better.

Flashwing

It's quite a stretch to say that your coils on your other vehicle did nothing for you and then apply that blanket logic to every coil upgrade that's out there.

If you take the time to read the information which we have provided about our coil upgrade then you'll see at no time have we ever claimed that it will increase your hp output and it's never been marketed as a power upgrade. It's designed to replace a part which has a long history of failure in every type of RX8 from FI cars serviced by owners to bone stock cars that see only dealership service. The stronger coil is capable of creating a spark which provides more complete combustion and also can handle the high combustion chamber pressures of FI applications.

If you don't feel you need a coil upgrade or simply are not interested that's fine. However, I'd ask that you don't spread misinformation about it's effectiveness or imply that the companies marketing it are simply screwing people out of their money.

Mazmart

iTrader: (12)

Thanks. Some sense was needed. The specifics of the RX8s ignition needs are not the same as most other cars. It's true that they both require spark provided across a sparkpug gap but an FI RX8 has other unique things occurring.

Paul.

cliffkemp

I am saying that it is very hard to evaluate if you lost the good connection over time and that caused the coil to fail. Even worse, which connection started going bad due to heat, vibration, and electrolysis. Even if you replace just the coils, it could have been the spark plug-wire connection, or could be the coil-wire connection. It is very hard to pin down without spending a good bit of money and knowing if the connection is bad by actually looking at the terminals and the ends of the wires (nobody looks at the wire teminals) You would need a flashlight to see the ends and most people, nearly all, just replace either all 3 (coils, wires, and plugs) or a combo usually the coils and plugs and it may be the wires.

cliffkemp

Maybe or they just upgrade thinking that it had to be done instead of keeping stock and putting on fresh new of all 3 and see how it goes. Turbo engines are not the same as na. It may very well need an upgrade to more powerful coils as when you increase pressure (boost) it does increase the load to fire the plugs but, stock coils are sufficient for na use, that I am sure of. My point still holds as the BHR and Okeda coils are overpriced for an upgrade when none is needed for NA cars.

cliffkemp

You are correct in that the plugs fire more in the 8 than in the piston engine. Also keep in mind that many piston engines now fire more. I have a neon that has 2 coils that fire 2 cylinders at a time. Fortunately, the 8 has 4 seperate coils that fire each plug to take a load off just having 2 coils. My point is that the stock coils will not fail as much as people think. Most coils can and will fail in time depending on several factors I addressed to another and feel free to read it as well. Also, each coil doesnt fire 2 times as the leading plug fires 2 times for every one the trailing plugs fires.

cliffkemp

Say again. According to this post over 250 people think it does make more hp as you quoted and made the above comment. Look.... I am saying that for NA cars with good connections to wires-coils-plugs.... the stock system is fine and that the upgrades will yield NO hp increase over stock. I also said that the price you pay for the upgrades are not worth paying if you keep your car NA, keep it maintained well as far as plugs and wires and coils go. Again, it is more expensive cause everyone is going to replace the plugs and wires but you can get the coils for 125 dollars and get several sets and 125k to 200k miles before your upgrade starts paying off if it lasts that long. It probably will but, it will cost more than what it is worth.

cliffkemp

Funny how people took what I said out of context. I can fully defend my claims. Part of the reason we have 4 coils is to take the load off as many cars use only 2 to 3 for 4 and 6 cyl cars. I am fully aware of the needs of the car in NA form. I am saying that even mechanics that I have talked to about just about any car, dont look at the connections and just replace them and assume they are not working as they should. Most dont look at the plug ends and the coil terminals and almost never look at the plug ends. These points can have an adverse, long-term effect on the longevity and performance of the coils and electrical needs of this car. Broken wire, easy to fix and blame, bad plug build up or fouled, easy fix. Checking the connections and making sure they are very snug and no electrolysis or oxidation, especially the wires themselves due to the boot covering it, not so easy and could be the cause. How many times have you seen/evaluated/fixed the connections without having to replace any of the coils, plugs, and wires on any car. I have yet to meet one although they may exist. I see this happen at work all the time with brushes on high power electric motors.

Jon316G

iTrader: (1)

Funny... I thought it was because all the plugs fire at different times.

I know what you're getting at... "technicians" will blindly replace a motor without properly troubleshooting it when it could have simply been worn brushes (I run into that too at work).
And that honestly has been frustrating to me seeing people post stuff like , "buy this, this, this and that should take care of it" without working with the individual to help narrow it down more.
And I don't disagree with you that there could be connection issues... hell, most of us know that the plug wires are known to come loose.

I do feel that most people here mention checking the connections, but also realize that most people who post for help have little to no electromechanical knowledge and wouldn't know what to look for anyway.

cliffkemp

That is a general statement that only applies to those who know what they have and have not done. For me to say that no one has done the proper analysis is stupid as I dont know any of you personally. There are some out there, I am sure that, who do check most everything as they may have a background in electronic or electrical engineering. I dont have a degree in it but, I work with it every day and make wire and cable for homes and computers. If I have mistated a law of physics or eletrical current, let me know. I have yet to hear that from anyone in here but, I do make mistakes as well. I just use deductive reasoning and logic combined with experience and knowledge to come to my conclusions. If i get the money to prove it, I will but, that I do not have to satisfy many of you in this forum at this time.

cliffkemp

Exactly... If I didnt work around electrical equipment, I would not think about it myself. I am not claiming that Okada or BHR is a bad thing as far as their coils go but, I am saying that for a NA rx8, replacing healthy coils and thinking you are going to get more hp is the false statement. I am saying that it only restores the hp back to what it was if the coils were not functioning properly or there is a bad connection(s) or bad plug(s). I see fake dynos all the time and know how to spot them if they have the rpms at the bottom.

My point is, if you buy the upgrades, you will be spending 4 or more times as much money when you can buy 4 new sets of stock coils that will do just fine. We already replace the plugs and wires on a regular basis as it is so the cost of those are not applicable. I have read many of these posts and see people post they have a hp gain by getting the upgrade and its not true.

cliffkemp

That would be another part as well. in multi plug hemis, the plugs fire at the same time but, in the 8, the leading fires slightly sooner than the trailing if I remember correctly Not going to argue with you there. I did leave that out.

Jon316G

iTrader: (1)

What you need to realize cliffkemp is that there are groups around here like BHR who take the time and resource to make components better.
They do the research and testing so poor people like us don't have spend money we can't afford to do our own analysis.
Are we trusting them when they say that we'll get our moneys worth and this is a good product... sure.
But after you've been here awhile, you know who you can trust and who you should exercise a little caution around.

And these groups are also open to any concerns/questions about their product.
Charles and I have gone back and forth a few times
In the end it never hurts to question something, just watch how you present it.

cliffkemp

I agree. Also, people need to not twist what is said and, they should think before they post something without doing a little research or at least have working knowledge of how it works. I was not trying to start anything. It is like I said earlier, (to paraphrase) If I am going down the road and speeding a little bit and the person next to me is speeding as well and a cop sees us and turns around to persue one of us for speeding, I am not going to hit the brakes and "raise my hand" rather, I am going to just let of the gas a little. I understand what you are saying

GeorgeH

iTrader: (2)

I had my car dyno tuned by Tim at Surgeline Tuning (a subsidiary of Cobb) in Portland, OR today on a Mustang dyno.

Mods:
- K&N drop-in
- AP Pulley
- Corksport cat-back
- Custom mid-pipe, constructed using a Racing Beat racing pipe as the raw material, and then cutting & welding in a “medium” Racing Beat resonator and a Davesport hi-flow cat.
- Cobb AccessPort

Car made 200 Hp using the stock map, and 210 using the custom map made by Tim @ Surgeline.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

wow - excellent result . Good job

GeorgeH

iTrader: (2)

Thanks. And since Tim is new to RX-8 tuning (but very experienced in general) I'm not sure there isn't more to be found.

chancejat

iTrader: (2)

nice on a mustang dyno....thats like over 220 on dynojet most likely.

pdxhak

iTrader: (2)

Great dyno George! It is good to see more AP tuners and great to see one is in Portland