Cumulative Synthetic Oil Discussion
05-06-2006, 03:02 AM
#251
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Originally Posted by 3rdRXlover
I spoke to the service guys at Mazda and they said DO NOT use syntheic oil in my RX-8 (or a blend) as it can cake up the seals. Any good conventional oil is as good at wear prevention as a synthetic if chamged at the proper interval.
don't waste you money, change your oil whenever it starts to get dirty is best.
don't waste you money, change your oil whenever it starts to get dirty is best.
05-06-2006, 08:59 AM
#252
I dont get all these "Synth oil" wont be able to burn as "clean" as dino oil blah blah blah thing.
I mean, the good thing about Synth oil is that it's can withstand much higher heat than dino oil. there was a problem with old , i mean OLD synth oil thats like what 20 years ago with the seals. but for some reason people still afraid of something happened 20+ years ago.
and some might say yes Synth can withstand higher heat thats why its not burning as "clean" but I mean come on, do you guys even know how "hot" it is in the combustion process ? and I dont think theres any oil can withstand that heat. and yes it will burn and its going to be clean.
My engine still running strong, so does RG and alot of other people.
forget about Mazda or whatever dealer. Most of those so called "Tech" dont even know wtf they're talking about.
I mean, the good thing about Synth oil is that it's can withstand much higher heat than dino oil. there was a problem with old , i mean OLD synth oil thats like what 20 years ago with the seals. but for some reason people still afraid of something happened 20+ years ago.
and some might say yes Synth can withstand higher heat thats why its not burning as "clean" but I mean come on, do you guys even know how "hot" it is in the combustion process ? and I dont think theres any oil can withstand that heat. and yes it will burn and its going to be clean.
My engine still running strong, so does RG and alot of other people.
forget about Mazda or whatever dealer. Most of those so called "Tech" dont even know wtf they're talking about.
05-06-2006, 11:08 PM
#253
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well one thing in their defence is against the walls of the combustion chamber (which the rotary has a huge ratio of surface area to volume) might cause some things not to burn. but one nice thing with oil is ash content is almost nill. ash is bad when it burns. another thing is with REAL synthetic oils they generally don't have as many addatives added to the base stock which means less things that need to get burnt away and instead just oil.
I have used synthetic in my rx7 for some time now. I don't use premix either without the OMP. I do add a tad bit of synthetic 2stroke oil to the tank though. maybe 2-3 oz for the whole fillup at least sometimes I try it. not all the time though. so far no problems with compression or oil consumption. at least not anymore then normal. if anything it has almost seem to go down a little except for the damn oil cooler or oil line that's cracked.
same on my honda. oil usage went down with using synthetic. gas mileage also went up by a bit just by switching to 5w-30 in the tranny on my honda. but then again why would that be if it protects just as good as dino juice? wouldn't better gas mileage be because of less friction. and isn't less friction a form of protecting the internal parts?
I have used synthetic in my rx7 for some time now. I don't use premix either without the OMP. I do add a tad bit of synthetic 2stroke oil to the tank though. maybe 2-3 oz for the whole fillup at least sometimes I try it. not all the time though. so far no problems with compression or oil consumption. at least not anymore then normal. if anything it has almost seem to go down a little except for the damn oil cooler or oil line that's cracked.
same on my honda. oil usage went down with using synthetic. gas mileage also went up by a bit just by switching to 5w-30 in the tranny on my honda. but then again why would that be if it protects just as good as dino juice? wouldn't better gas mileage be because of less friction. and isn't less friction a form of protecting the internal parts?
05-11-2006, 12:30 PM
#254
All these people who whine about Synthentic Oil , said that Mazda said no to Synth Oil blah blah blah. Has no evidence that Mazda said no the Synthentic. and ...
Im DARE to say that NONE of them follow this in the Mazda Manual :
"Go to a Mazda Dealer to fix whatever problem you have"
Yeah ok, Thank you.
Im DARE to say that NONE of them follow this in the Mazda Manual :
"Go to a Mazda Dealer to fix whatever problem you have"
Yeah ok, Thank you.
05-11-2006, 12:50 PM
#255
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That's the point I keep making. People constantly complain about what Mazda says with various topics and constantly doubts them and doesn't use their service departments, etc and then they go on Mazda's unofficial recommendation about oil type. I don't get it. Mazda themselves use synthetic oils in their race cars. There is no magic oil formulation that makes it suitable for a rotary and not other engines either. Idemitsu is nothing special.
It wasn't too long ago that no auto manufacturer recommended synthetic oils and now more and more of them are changing their position on the issue and are using it. Mazda is just a little slower to make this endorsement. It doesn't mean that it's bad though. Remember when everyone recommended thicker oils instead of what we have now? Today's thinner oils are obviously working and suddenly thicker is worse. Strange isn't it?
Did you know that Ferrari recommends only "Shell motor oil specially formulated for Ferrari" be used in their cars but they have an alternate transmission oil/fluid for harsher weather conditions? It's Royal Purple!!! Go figure! The Pagini Zonda also comes with Royal Purple lubricants. Royal Purple actually makes lubricants for a few different companies out there but most of them are industrial use in Europe. The worlds largest supercharger manufacturer also uses lubricants made by Royal Purple. The most exotic and expensive cars in the world use synthetics. Shell is Royal Purple's biggest client. Figure that one out!
This may sound like a plug for RP, and it is good stuff, bt the main point is that a better oil is never worse for your car. That's like needing a blood transfusion and the doctor asks you if you want their most pure deisease free blood or if you want to take your chances with a less highly processed blood type. I think we all know the answer when it comes to our lives.
It wasn't too long ago that no auto manufacturer recommended synthetic oils and now more and more of them are changing their position on the issue and are using it. Mazda is just a little slower to make this endorsement. It doesn't mean that it's bad though. Remember when everyone recommended thicker oils instead of what we have now? Today's thinner oils are obviously working and suddenly thicker is worse. Strange isn't it?
Did you know that Ferrari recommends only "Shell motor oil specially formulated for Ferrari" be used in their cars but they have an alternate transmission oil/fluid for harsher weather conditions? It's Royal Purple!!! Go figure! The Pagini Zonda also comes with Royal Purple lubricants. Royal Purple actually makes lubricants for a few different companies out there but most of them are industrial use in Europe. The worlds largest supercharger manufacturer also uses lubricants made by Royal Purple. The most exotic and expensive cars in the world use synthetics. Shell is Royal Purple's biggest client. Figure that one out!
This may sound like a plug for RP, and it is good stuff, bt the main point is that a better oil is never worse for your car. That's like needing a blood transfusion and the doctor asks you if you want their most pure deisease free blood or if you want to take your chances with a less highly processed blood type. I think we all know the answer when it comes to our lives.
05-11-2006, 06:46 PM
#256
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im switching to synthetic oil! - ive been a Kendall Motor Oil user ever since i bought my first car: the glorious 1st gen RX-7. but since they changed to only synthetic i had to give them up for the reason that mazda doesnt recomend synthetic oil in my RX-8. so if my engine melts down im comming after the whole RX-8 club roster single-handedly.
05-15-2006, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by nycgps
So far I've tried Quakers State and Royal Purple. Now Castrol, all Full Synthentic, for 11,000 miles and its running strong (I feel great after I switch to Castrol today. for some reason)
Ahh, Maybe I should just stick it to 1 brand, and I think Royal Purple is on the top of my list.
Ahh, Maybe I should just stick it to 1 brand, and I think Royal Purple is on the top of my list.
as far as castrol goes it isn't full synthetic. it isn't even really a synthetic so to speak. it's still dino juice. just been refined to the piont that it acts somewhat like a synthetic but still acts in a way like dino oil.
for the price might as well get a Real full synthetic oil like amsoil, mobile 1, redline, or royal purple.
05-18-2006, 10:27 PM
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2 Stroke Oil
Over the last 6 years of racing shifter karts we've tried about every 2 stroke oil made. One thing that makes 2 stroke oil different is there are no traces of minerals that leave a heavy ash deposit. Petro based oil has sulpher and mangenese.
Synthetics are a methyl-ester based compound thats crosslinked - and decompose back into methyl esters above about 400°. They burn pretty clean, and even better they usually don't have any mineral content.
We prefer castor oil (degummed for motors). Castor decomposes at about 600° and leaves a varnish type of dry lube behind - yet burns pretty clean with no ash. While it works great on a 2 stroke, I'm not going to be the guinea pig to test it in a rotory.
But I am considering trying some synthetic 2 stroke oil.
Synthetics are a methyl-ester based compound thats crosslinked - and decompose back into methyl esters above about 400°. They burn pretty clean, and even better they usually don't have any mineral content.
We prefer castor oil (degummed for motors). Castor decomposes at about 600° and leaves a varnish type of dry lube behind - yet burns pretty clean with no ash. While it works great on a 2 stroke, I'm not going to be the guinea pig to test it in a rotory.
But I am considering trying some synthetic 2 stroke oil.
05-25-2006, 08:20 PM
#261
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Interesting thread, I like how it goes on and on and on... Energizer bunny stuff :o)
Anyway, on a serious note, there are some important misconceptions in this thread. Ash is from additives, esp. detergents, and have nothing to do with synthetic or not. Both could get the same amount of the same stuff, or even the synthetic can have worst ash than a dino. However, as far as both pass the tests, why bother which is what? Rev the engine to 6000 and be happy.
Second misconception: neither oil burns ! If any oil would burn, how would anybody ever see blue smoke or smell oil in the exhaust or see and oily exhaust tail pipe? Burning gives water and carbon dioxide, both odorless. So yes, oil work and lubricate internal piston chambers or rotors BECAUSE they do not burn. Why they do not burn? Sure temperature is very high, but the ignition cycle is too fast for the oil to vaporize, and ONLY vapors can burn. So a crappy dino oil will vaporize 30% more than a great synthetic. You will see it in oil consumption for piston cars, not in the Renesis that injects oil anyway. Synthetics are better because being more pure, they withstand oxidative degradation better - so it does not make gummy residues. Why Mazda is kind-of-against them beats me... they should like them ! Once seals get varnished and cannot move to seal, compresion goes down and is time to rebuild the engine. So yes, if you want to claim your engine works great with X brand oil - post compresion tests in time (every time you change oil). Anything goes wrong, that is the place to see it. Car running strong is meaningless when all motor oils nowdays pass enough tests to insure that anyway - at least for the warranty period. Also, when using synthetics, why change at 3000 miles? A good one could do 6000 to 10000 miles. At 3000 miles, any dino oil will still be OK and not degrade to cause problems. Some European diesel oils do 15000 km between changes - but cost $20 per liter :o)
About Kendall - I used GT-1 Semiblend 5W20. Used to be cheap and of enough quality to overseed Mazda requirements. Not sure which I'll try next - but I've seen reports that Castrol leaves high deposits... big no-no for me. Maybe the high rev Q oil...
About Royal Purple - only because they make dedicated oils for Ferrari, it does NOT mean you will purchase such oil from another source. Make sure you check it is API SM approved - if not, Mazda will void your warranty work if it seems even remotely oil-related... Do not use racing oils - those have so much additives, it will fry your catalyst. So forget about Mazda racing oils - means nothing for your car and it will destroy your emissions system.
Synthetics are NOT methyl esters. Are PAO (poly alpha olefins) made from fairly pure decene (C10) fractions. To make PAO more polar, few percent of esters are added. Those used to break old seal materials - NOT AN ISSUE WITH NEW ENGINES, so don't bring this up over and over again - it expired long ago :o)
Anyway, on a serious note, there are some important misconceptions in this thread. Ash is from additives, esp. detergents, and have nothing to do with synthetic or not. Both could get the same amount of the same stuff, or even the synthetic can have worst ash than a dino. However, as far as both pass the tests, why bother which is what? Rev the engine to 6000 and be happy.
Second misconception: neither oil burns ! If any oil would burn, how would anybody ever see blue smoke or smell oil in the exhaust or see and oily exhaust tail pipe? Burning gives water and carbon dioxide, both odorless. So yes, oil work and lubricate internal piston chambers or rotors BECAUSE they do not burn. Why they do not burn? Sure temperature is very high, but the ignition cycle is too fast for the oil to vaporize, and ONLY vapors can burn. So a crappy dino oil will vaporize 30% more than a great synthetic. You will see it in oil consumption for piston cars, not in the Renesis that injects oil anyway. Synthetics are better because being more pure, they withstand oxidative degradation better - so it does not make gummy residues. Why Mazda is kind-of-against them beats me... they should like them ! Once seals get varnished and cannot move to seal, compresion goes down and is time to rebuild the engine. So yes, if you want to claim your engine works great with X brand oil - post compresion tests in time (every time you change oil). Anything goes wrong, that is the place to see it. Car running strong is meaningless when all motor oils nowdays pass enough tests to insure that anyway - at least for the warranty period. Also, when using synthetics, why change at 3000 miles? A good one could do 6000 to 10000 miles. At 3000 miles, any dino oil will still be OK and not degrade to cause problems. Some European diesel oils do 15000 km between changes - but cost $20 per liter :o)
About Kendall - I used GT-1 Semiblend 5W20. Used to be cheap and of enough quality to overseed Mazda requirements. Not sure which I'll try next - but I've seen reports that Castrol leaves high deposits... big no-no for me. Maybe the high rev Q oil...
About Royal Purple - only because they make dedicated oils for Ferrari, it does NOT mean you will purchase such oil from another source. Make sure you check it is API SM approved - if not, Mazda will void your warranty work if it seems even remotely oil-related... Do not use racing oils - those have so much additives, it will fry your catalyst. So forget about Mazda racing oils - means nothing for your car and it will destroy your emissions system.
Synthetics are NOT methyl esters. Are PAO (poly alpha olefins) made from fairly pure decene (C10) fractions. To make PAO more polar, few percent of esters are added. Those used to break old seal materials - NOT AN ISSUE WITH NEW ENGINES, so don't bring this up over and over again - it expired long ago :o)
05-27-2006, 03:41 PM
#262
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I contacted Castrol and asked about their synthetic in the RX-8, they said don't use it - stick with the standard 5-20, which was tested and best matches burning and viscousity requirements and does not mess up the Cat as fast, they also said that no organic oil (olive, grape seed, etc.) that they are aware of has the right qualities. The Service Manager, over at Valley Mazda is San Louis Obispo, swears by it and he has been running rotors for years - and besides its still cheaper than most and available at Wal-Mart
05-28-2006, 12:19 PM
#263
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Second thought - residue can cause pitting in the rotar which causing bumping and rough running.
Also seems to be a lot of people getting new Engines - wonder what kind of oil they were running? How do we start a survey? Need to just get oil specs on replaced engines....May save other's the grief.
Also seems to be a lot of people getting new Engines - wonder what kind of oil they were running? How do we start a survey? Need to just get oil specs on replaced engines....May save other's the grief.
05-29-2006, 12:16 AM
#265
Originally Posted by Winfree
I contacted Castrol and asked about their synthetic in the RX-8, they said don't use it - stick with the standard 5-20, which was tested and best matches burning and viscousity requirements and does not mess up the Cat as fast, they also said that no organic oil (olive, grape seed, etc.) that they are aware of has the right qualities. The Service Manager, over at Valley Mazda is San Louis Obispo, swears by it and he has been running rotors for years - and besides its still cheaper than most and available at Wal-Mart
you contated castrol how... and who did you get a respose from.... and could you print it here..
funny that the rx8 is in the back of one of castrols info sidebars that plays on speed all the time...
do you think that happened by accident???
beers
05-29-2006, 12:25 AM
#266
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This is the Email address - it lets you sign up for a contest and also gets you into their question and answer section. Since the Tokyo Drift contest was being advertised with their new synthetic, I thought I'd find out if it was good for the RX-8. Sorry I didn't keep their email reply but it was basically no - they worked with Mazda and the old cheap stuff was the good stuff... So here's the address and a chance to go to Japan - figured that would be fun for Mom!http://www.castrol.com/tokyodrift
05-29-2006, 12:36 AM
#267
Originally Posted by Winfree
This is the Email address - it lets you sign up for a contest and also gets you into their question and answer section. Since the Tokyo Drift contest was being advertised with their new synthetic, I thought I'd find out if it was good for the RX-8. Sorry I didn't keep their email reply but it was basically no - they worked with Mazda and the old cheap stuff was the good stuff... So here's the address and a chance to go to Japan - figured that would be fun for Mom!http://www.castrol.com/tokyodrift
well thats enough for me... i have about 2 gal of rp going up for sale soon...
back to dino...
beers
05-29-2006, 02:44 AM
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You asked about data source:
Did some computer magic and recaptured the Castrol reply out of dead eMail:"A number of years ago Mazda evaluated the performance of synthetic oils and
determined that their characteristics may result in lower compression
pressure or excess oil consumption due to insufficient lubrication of the
seals and the rotor surface. In fact, the recommendation against the use of
synthetics continues to stand for their RX7 and RX8 rotary engines today.
Therefore, we cannot recommend the use of Castrol SYNTEC and SYNTEC Blend in
Mazda rotary engines, because we respect the decision made by Mazda.
Castrol does not offer a castor based oil, olive oil, or any other
biological motor oil for sale in North America.
Subject: Castrol USA - Contact Us Form Data"
05-29-2006, 03:09 AM
#271
Originally Posted by Winfree
Did some computer magic and recaptured the Castrol reply out of dead eMail:"A number of years ago Mazda evaluated the performance of synthetic oils and
determined that their characteristics may result in lower compression
pressure or excess oil consumption due to insufficient lubrication of the
seals and the rotor surface. In fact, the recommendation against the use of
synthetics continues to stand for their RX7 and RX8 rotary engines today.
Therefore, we cannot recommend the use of Castrol SYNTEC and SYNTEC Blend in
Mazda rotary engines, because we respect the decision made by Mazda.
Castrol does not offer a castor based oil, olive oil, or any other
biological motor oil for sale in North America.
Subject: Castrol USA - Contact Us Form Data"
that is a very old qoute from mazda, and if castrol is putting that out it is a shame...
you might search. a thread called sevenstock... and read it... or just put swoope in the search threads... and find my posts about syn...
this has just been covered....
i guess i am rg bitch now....
the info is out. read it...
ok i retract my rp sale..
beers
05-29-2006, 03:12 AM
#272
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So basically what they are saying is that they have no information either way and are basing their statement on one Mazda made years if not decades ago when engine technology and oil technology were very different from today.
05-29-2006, 08:21 AM
#273
Originally Posted by Winfree
Did some computer magic and recaptured the Castrol reply out of dead eMail:"A number of years ago Mazda evaluated the performance of synthetic oils and
determined that their characteristics may result in lower compression
pressure or excess oil consumption due to insufficient lubrication of the
seals and the rotor surface. In fact, the recommendation against the use of
synthetics continues to stand for their RX7 and RX8 rotary engines today.
Therefore, we cannot recommend the use of Castrol SYNTEC and SYNTEC Blend in
Mazda rotary engines, because we respect the decision made by Mazda.
Castrol does not offer a castor based oil, olive oil, or any other
biological motor oil for sale in North America.
Subject: Castrol USA - Contact Us Form Data"
A number of years ago Mazda evaluated the performance of synthetic oils and
determined that their characteristics may result in lower compression
pressure or excess oil consumption due to insufficient lubrication of the
seals and the rotor surface.
determined that their characteristics may result in lower compression
pressure or excess oil consumption due to insufficient lubrication of the
seals and the rotor surface.
In fact, the recommendation against the use of
synthetics continues to stand for their RX7 and RX8 rotary engines today.
synthetics continues to stand for their RX7 and RX8 rotary engines today.
You mention about the blow up engine, thats out of how many? you guys who mention about "engine blew up" should really get your *** out of here, and start visiting other car forums. Dead engine happens to every car. Not just the 8.
No one can prove that the Full Synthentic Oil we use today can HURT a rotary besides Mazda "does not" recommend it. and I guess you guys should that this word is different from the word "against"
Im using Full Synthentic, RG, and how many other people ? with Excellent results.
Oh speaking of the dead engines. Those were MOSTLY 4-ported AT with only 1 Oil Cooler. In case you havent notice.
05-29-2006, 10:30 AM
#274
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I've even using it for a many years now. Even Racing Beat recommends Royal Purple although before they did, they used Amsoil.
Everyone should understand that I don't say that you should not use conventional oils. I'm just against people saying that you shouldn't use synthetics. That's a rumor that needs to go away. One reason why I use RP is because they obviously know a thing or 2 about rotaries. It's obvious by looking at their FAQ page. They obviously understand what goes on in a rotary and have actually gone to the trouble to test in them.
I do have to laugh at the people who claim that Idemitsu is somehow specialy formulated for the rotary when other synthetics aren't. I have to ask, what makes it so special? We all know that what makes a motor oil a motor oil is the additive package. The base stock couldn't cut it on it's own. All oils use basically the same types of additives just in different proportions. It definitely can't be them that is special. What about the base stock? Could that be it? What makes a synthetic a synthetic is the base stock oil. Idemitsu is a group IV PAO. So is RP and several others. That can't be it. So what is it that makes it so special and safe for rotaries? I'll let you in on the big secret. Shhhhh...... Mazda endorses it because one of their guys had a hand in formulating it with Idemitsu. That's the secret. There's nothing special about it other than that. Last I checked it's what it's made out of that counts, not who did the mixing.
There is one thing that stands out about Idemitsu. I've seen an oil analysis of it which is why I crack up at the claims hat it is good and others aren't. It contains unusually high levels of molybdenum. Many other oils contain this as well. Just not in as high a quantity. Does this make it rotary compatible? Nope. As I said other oils have it as well so that can't be it. Why the large amount? They developed this oil for racing and not street use. For racing they wanted extra lubricating ability. Makes sense, it's for a race car. Molybdenum however will settle out over time. What will happen if you use this in a street car that doesn't get oil changes as often? Where do you think this molybdenum will go? Does that sound like something you want in your street engine just because it is "rotary formulated"? That's an oil I'd save for the track.
The whole point is that nothing makes a synthetic bad for a rotaries and conventionals good. This is the 21st century. 30 years ago there may have been issues. Use whatever oil you want. That's fine. Let's just stop continuing to spread false rumors that synthetics are bad. They aren't and evidence strongly suggests they are better.
Everyone should understand that I don't say that you should not use conventional oils. I'm just against people saying that you shouldn't use synthetics. That's a rumor that needs to go away. One reason why I use RP is because they obviously know a thing or 2 about rotaries. It's obvious by looking at their FAQ page. They obviously understand what goes on in a rotary and have actually gone to the trouble to test in them.
I do have to laugh at the people who claim that Idemitsu is somehow specialy formulated for the rotary when other synthetics aren't. I have to ask, what makes it so special? We all know that what makes a motor oil a motor oil is the additive package. The base stock couldn't cut it on it's own. All oils use basically the same types of additives just in different proportions. It definitely can't be them that is special. What about the base stock? Could that be it? What makes a synthetic a synthetic is the base stock oil. Idemitsu is a group IV PAO. So is RP and several others. That can't be it. So what is it that makes it so special and safe for rotaries? I'll let you in on the big secret. Shhhhh...... Mazda endorses it because one of their guys had a hand in formulating it with Idemitsu. That's the secret. There's nothing special about it other than that. Last I checked it's what it's made out of that counts, not who did the mixing.
There is one thing that stands out about Idemitsu. I've seen an oil analysis of it which is why I crack up at the claims hat it is good and others aren't. It contains unusually high levels of molybdenum. Many other oils contain this as well. Just not in as high a quantity. Does this make it rotary compatible? Nope. As I said other oils have it as well so that can't be it. Why the large amount? They developed this oil for racing and not street use. For racing they wanted extra lubricating ability. Makes sense, it's for a race car. Molybdenum however will settle out over time. What will happen if you use this in a street car that doesn't get oil changes as often? Where do you think this molybdenum will go? Does that sound like something you want in your street engine just because it is "rotary formulated"? That's an oil I'd save for the track.
The whole point is that nothing makes a synthetic bad for a rotaries and conventionals good. This is the 21st century. 30 years ago there may have been issues. Use whatever oil you want. That's fine. Let's just stop continuing to spread false rumors that synthetics are bad. They aren't and evidence strongly suggests they are better.
05-29-2006, 01:24 PM
#275
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So are there any additives that cause an oil to breakdown more completely and not leave residue? As I understand it, the big three are proper viscosity, lack of residue, and complete burn. I use Mobil 1 in the 1993 because of viscosity and lack of residue, but as I understand it, it doesn't burn very well, because it's compounded of the parts of recycled oil that didn't burn...But I am teachable - so you say RP works the best - what do you see when you pull an older rotary apart? My 93 has only been pulled once and the insides looked new - I had simply worn out the gaskets - what are you seeing in pulled Rotaries???