Cumulative Synthetic Oil Discussion
03-13-2005, 06:25 AM
#176
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The Dino Oil myth
Mazda 5w30 Dexelia is a full synthetic Oil and Mazda run all test with this oil and not with dino oil!
You should forgot very fast the non test myth.
And for a KKM57P (REW) you should always use a low ash content motoroil!
Sulfurash is what stick your seals.
Oil should no and never burn inside of your engine.
Oil whose burn don't lubricate and stick your seals and damaged your engine.
That is the thrute about the dino oil myth.
Synthetic is not only a pao it can be a much better non mineral oil based ester!
Dino oil need diophosphate and zinc, this destroy your Catalysator.
Pressure resitens, higher is better.
Mineral Oil ~9000 N/qcm
Synthetic 50000~240000 N/qcm
VI higher is better!
Mineral Oil VI=95
HC-Oil VI=130
XHVI-Oil VI=150
Poly-alpa-Olelfine VI=140
Ester Oil VI=140-210
Synthtic need no or less VI-improver, the sheer resitens is better!
Some Ester Oil's, like the Fuchs Petrolub GT1 0w20 need no VI-Improver!
HC-, MC-, XHVI-oil are all hydrocrack synthese oil's and not synthtic oil!
Dino oil based oil's are:
Group 3 Isoparafine (HC-Oil's)
Pao are made out ethylene.
Non Dino oil based :
Synthetic ester oil's (vegatabele fat or animal fat based) !
Sorry, this file is only available in german! All about oil.
http://www.transalp.de/technik/pd-te...mierstoffe.pdf
PS
http://www.mazdamotorsports.com/weba...1&subject=misc
You should forgot very fast the non test myth.
And for a KKM57P (REW) you should always use a low ash content motoroil!
Sulfurash is what stick your seals.
Oil should no and never burn inside of your engine.
Oil whose burn don't lubricate and stick your seals and damaged your engine.
That is the thrute about the dino oil myth.
Synthetic is not only a pao it can be a much better non mineral oil based ester!
Dino oil need diophosphate and zinc, this destroy your Catalysator.
Pressure resitens, higher is better.
Mineral Oil ~9000 N/qcm
Synthetic 50000~240000 N/qcm
VI higher is better!
Mineral Oil VI=95
HC-Oil VI=130
XHVI-Oil VI=150
Poly-alpa-Olelfine VI=140
Ester Oil VI=140-210
Synthtic need no or less VI-improver, the sheer resitens is better!
Some Ester Oil's, like the Fuchs Petrolub GT1 0w20 need no VI-Improver!
HC-, MC-, XHVI-oil are all hydrocrack synthese oil's and not synthtic oil!
Dino oil based oil's are:
Group 3 Isoparafine (HC-Oil's)
Pao are made out ethylene.
Non Dino oil based :
Synthetic ester oil's (vegatabele fat or animal fat based) !
Sorry, this file is only available in german! All about oil.
http://www.transalp.de/technik/pd-te...mierstoffe.pdf
PS
http://www.mazdamotorsports.com/weba...1&subject=misc
Last edited by HD-Paschke; 03-13-2005 at 08:55 AM.
03-15-2005, 12:08 AM
#177
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Originally Posted by SpacerX
Most seem to think the Castrol GTX 5W20 is good. Some other 5W20 choices that I've researched and would recommend:
- Castrol
- Halvoline
- Chevron -- same as Havoline
- Conoco
- Motorcraft Synth-Blend (not really synth -- it's a blend of group II, II+, III stock) -- same as the Conoco
- Pennzoil
Bottom line I tell people to look for:
1. Use the recommended 5W20 rating
2. Look for the proper API service and ILSAC ratings
3. Use an oil that passes BOTH the Honda and the Ford Motor Company specifications for 5W20 oils -- the FOMoCo spec is the most rigorous, and it is specifically made for the new 5W20 oils
I personally use the Motorcraft -- $1.40 per quart and it's yielded outstanding performance, based on the used oil analysis data I've gotten from Blackstone
- Castrol
- Halvoline
- Chevron -- same as Havoline
- Conoco
- Motorcraft Synth-Blend (not really synth -- it's a blend of group II, II+, III stock) -- same as the Conoco
- Pennzoil
Bottom line I tell people to look for:
1. Use the recommended 5W20 rating
2. Look for the proper API service and ILSAC ratings
3. Use an oil that passes BOTH the Honda and the Ford Motor Company specifications for 5W20 oils -- the FOMoCo spec is the most rigorous, and it is specifically made for the new 5W20 oils
I personally use the Motorcraft -- $1.40 per quart and it's yielded outstanding performance, based on the used oil analysis data I've gotten from Blackstone
It took alot of posts but you pretty much nailed it in my opinion. Although I feel like 5W20 is mainly for MPG, I would run 10W30 JMO. All new SM oils changed at say 3K OCI's is gonna offer better protection than most people give their cars. I do have a couple of interesting links for you all to check out.
Do a google on- "Mazdaspeed Rotary 1 rotary engine oil"
A synthetic oil made for Mazda racing?
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php
Do a search here on RX8, then just study from there...
03-15-2005, 01:13 AM
#178
Metatron
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Mr. PIB.....
If you DO search on the oil forum, just ignore the geek who is looking for the best lubricity additive for running as pre-mix......he is a harmless dolt with too much money and free time!
Lubricity thread....
The thread immediately devolved into a 'don't use synth in a rotary' squabble, but some interesting suggestions do finally emerge, including a suggestion that a polyisobutylene additive (Lucas UCL) would do the job.
Pure hypothetical inquiry anyway, obviously nobody would put PIB in their Renesis, even as a test!
Honest!
Lubricity thread....
The thread immediately devolved into a 'don't use synth in a rotary' squabble, but some interesting suggestions do finally emerge, including a suggestion that a polyisobutylene additive (Lucas UCL) would do the job.
Pure hypothetical inquiry anyway, obviously nobody would put PIB in their Renesis, even as a test!
Honest!
03-15-2005, 01:27 AM
#179
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I did a lot of research into this debate and found that both sides had no real answer, I started using Redline 5w20 fully synthetic about 3 oil changes ago. Expensive but at least I know i'm putting in the best stuff on the market. I also think my engine sounds smoother idling and at high rpm's.
03-15-2005, 06:31 AM
#180
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Word form Mobile
"Mazda does not recommend synthetic oils but does Mobil see any
disadvantage of the use of synthetic oils."
Then Mobil says:
"Mobil has seen excellent results with the modern rotary engine however since it is not recommended by Mazda it is not recommended and guranteed for use by ExxonMobil."
So ... There it is... Mobile 1 for Me.
disadvantage of the use of synthetic oils."
Then Mobil says:
"Mobil has seen excellent results with the modern rotary engine however since it is not recommended by Mazda it is not recommended and guranteed for use by ExxonMobil."
So ... There it is... Mobile 1 for Me.
03-15-2005, 08:19 PM
#181
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PIB in Renesis
Pure hypothetical inquiry anyway, obviously nobody would put PIB in their Renesis, even as a test!
Honest!
[/QUOTE]
Why nobody would use PIB in a Renesis? That is the viscosity modifier for all 2T oils (motorcycles, boats, etc.) and it clearly works. So all people using premix do use PIB in the Renesis, and none reported any ill effects so far.
In pure form, it talkes long time to dissolve in gasoline, hence the use of premix oils.
Question about Red Line and Amsoil: do they display the API or ILSAC logos? Just curious.... And as a side-note: using racing oils on normal cars does come at a cost. As those cars do not have to use catalysts, the amount of moly is huge (so it protects the engine). Unfortunately, with moly comes the phosphorus - and that will kill your catalyst sooner than expected....
Honest!
[/QUOTE]Why nobody would use PIB in a Renesis? That is the viscosity modifier for all 2T oils (motorcycles, boats, etc.) and it clearly works. So all people using premix do use PIB in the Renesis, and none reported any ill effects so far.
In pure form, it talkes long time to dissolve in gasoline, hence the use of premix oils.
Question about Red Line and Amsoil: do they display the API or ILSAC logos? Just curious.... And as a side-note: using racing oils on normal cars does come at a cost. As those cars do not have to use catalysts, the amount of moly is huge (so it protects the engine). Unfortunately, with moly comes the phosphorus - and that will kill your catalyst sooner than expected....
03-15-2005, 11:11 PM
#182
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Anybody from europe reading this thread? Britain maybe?
Ask your dealer next time what type of oil they're using. Better yet, see if you can't get a photocopy of their manual. Or give me an email contact and I will see if I can buy the whole damn shop manual. If they are using synthetics, I want to see it in writing. And my office has a bigass scanner that can run through a big stack of papers and turn them into a .PDF by the way. Not that I would ever consider uploading a copyrighted text to interested forum members via bittorrent, cough cough.
The last two times I've gotten my oil changed, two or three people at the dealer have to give me "the speech". It's getting old. I'd like to have something in writing to squelch their yapping. One guy today told me not only that it would leave deposits, but that it would make my engine lose compression. Ugh.
Ask your dealer next time what type of oil they're using. Better yet, see if you can't get a photocopy of their manual. Or give me an email contact and I will see if I can buy the whole damn shop manual. If they are using synthetics, I want to see it in writing. And my office has a bigass scanner that can run through a big stack of papers and turn them into a .PDF by the way. Not that I would ever consider uploading a copyrighted text to interested forum members via bittorrent, cough cough.
The last two times I've gotten my oil changed, two or three people at the dealer have to give me "the speech". It's getting old. I'd like to have something in writing to squelch their yapping. One guy today told me not only that it would leave deposits, but that it would make my engine lose compression. Ugh.
03-27-2005, 07:59 AM
#184
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This is a repost from another thread here, since this is a sticky and probably more people are reading it.
My recommendations for motor oils:
All year except winter: Kendal GT-1, and the 2-3 month of winter: Mobil 1 Trisynthetic or Supersynthetic, if going 5W30.
Or, Kendal GT-1 Blend, Sunoco Ultra Premium or Havoline year round except winter, and Coastal Premium for winter, if staying with 5W20.
These are based on performance criteria: stability at high temperature under high shear (HTHS) - can you say Renesis?
, low deposits (TEOST) (we inject it in the combustion chamber!) and viscosity at low temperatures (CCS, MRV-TP1) ( -35C, maybe irrelevant for most of the US).
PS as far as Red Line & Amsoil, see my question above: are they ILSAC or API approved? People using those, please check for the logos on the bottles. Synthetic or not, no logo, no warranty, I'm affraid (from Mazda, anyway) Hence I will not recommend them and each has some harmful effect on the engine anyway (the catalyst, usually, as those oils are for race cars that do not have one!)
My recommendations for motor oils:
All year except winter: Kendal GT-1, and the 2-3 month of winter: Mobil 1 Trisynthetic or Supersynthetic, if going 5W30.
Or, Kendal GT-1 Blend, Sunoco Ultra Premium or Havoline year round except winter, and Coastal Premium for winter, if staying with 5W20.
These are based on performance criteria: stability at high temperature under high shear (HTHS) - can you say Renesis?
, low deposits (TEOST) (we inject it in the combustion chamber!) and viscosity at low temperatures (CCS, MRV-TP1) ( -35C, maybe irrelevant for most of the US). PS as far as Red Line & Amsoil, see my question above: are they ILSAC or API approved? People using those, please check for the logos on the bottles. Synthetic or not, no logo, no warranty, I'm affraid (from Mazda, anyway)
Hence I will not recommend them and each has some harmful effect on the engine anyway (the catalyst, usually, as those oils are for race cars that do not have one!)
04-06-2005, 08:07 AM
#185
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It seems that Mazda will eventually have to approve the use of synthetic oils. Motor oil manufacturers use various "add packs" to improve the viscosity range, reduce friction or improve wear resistance against metal to metal contact. I don't think that there is any current prohibition from adding a little "POE" (polyol ester) to conventional motor oil to improve the viscosity range. POE is the gold standard of synthetic oil. Redline motor oil is mostly POE.
The latest SM class oils have new ingredients. I think that "PAO" (polyalpha olephin) and POE are or will be sneeking into these oils.
As for combustability - conventional oil "add packs" contain zinc, moly, calcium, antimony - in some kind of organic molocule structure. In combustion, these molecules decompose and form oxides or water. The metals in the add packs to not form neat little gaseous oxides, but rather form what is considered to be ash type compounds. This ash can be viewed as sludge type stuff when engines are taken apart. So conventional motor oil does not burn completely. Synthetic oil has similar problems. POE does not burn well at all, but does decompose into gaseous products under the high heat of combustion. I think that PAO molecules do burn nicely. By the way, two-cycle oil of grade TCW3 does not contain any ash-forming compounds. Many RX-7 owners have changed their OMP to use this two-cycle oil. Other premix two-cycle oil into the gasoline.
The original problem that Mazda had with synthetic oils was deterioration of the oil control seals. These seals have been upgraded with the Renesis engine.
My fundamental point is that for Mazda to be consistent with their statement about not using synthetic oil, they would have to probhibit the use of any oil formulated for use after the year 2005.
The latest SM class oils have new ingredients. I think that "PAO" (polyalpha olephin) and POE are or will be sneeking into these oils.
As for combustability - conventional oil "add packs" contain zinc, moly, calcium, antimony - in some kind of organic molocule structure. In combustion, these molecules decompose and form oxides or water. The metals in the add packs to not form neat little gaseous oxides, but rather form what is considered to be ash type compounds. This ash can be viewed as sludge type stuff when engines are taken apart. So conventional motor oil does not burn completely. Synthetic oil has similar problems. POE does not burn well at all, but does decompose into gaseous products under the high heat of combustion. I think that PAO molecules do burn nicely. By the way, two-cycle oil of grade TCW3 does not contain any ash-forming compounds. Many RX-7 owners have changed their OMP to use this two-cycle oil. Other premix two-cycle oil into the gasoline.
The original problem that Mazda had with synthetic oils was deterioration of the oil control seals. These seals have been upgraded with the Renesis engine.
My fundamental point is that for Mazda to be consistent with their statement about not using synthetic oil, they would have to probhibit the use of any oil formulated for use after the year 2005.
04-09-2005, 01:14 PM
#186
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First, I will say I don't have the time to read this entire thread.
Now, I manufacture plastic shipping containers for Mazda North America and Mazda Japan reman programs. ALL, I repeat ALL of the rotary engine department people at Mazda have told me emphatically NEVER RUN SYNTHETIC OIL in the rotary. PERIOD.
It is possible some of them may burn adequately but Mazda has not tested them to find out which ones do. I have seen dismantled rotaries that have had synthetics in them, it's not pretty. First, the synthetic oil that did not burn properly forms little gummy ***** in the combustion chamber that get caught between the edges of the rotor and the side plates. The longer they stay there, the harder they get, until they wedge between the plate with sufficient force to start destroying the seals. At that point, kiss your sweet running engine good bye.
BTW, I am working with a guy selling a fantastic oil additive. Mazda will not test it in the Renisis, because if they do, they would have to test every additive that comes down the road. Dyno tests on my Formula Ford engine showed a marked HP increase, road testing in piston engined street cars showed an average of 12% increased fuel mileage. I am also not just going to pour it in my 8, so we are buying an older RX7 to test it in. If it destroys the engine, I'm out 1500 bucks, far cheaper than a new engine for my 8.
If it doesn't hurt the stock engine in the 7 in,say, 2000 miles, we are getting a remanned 13b from MNAO and dyno it, put it in the car, run it 10 k miles and then pull it out, re dyno to check for HP increase and pull it apart in front of a Mazda engineer from reman. If everything is okay, I'll see how it does in my 8 and in either case, I'll report our test, in it's entirety, here.
If anyone is interested in keeping tabs on the test, PM me, as I don't have time to come to this forum too often, but I will do a folder in my email addy book and keep everyone up to date. We plan on starting the test in early May.
I don't know about you guys, but I commute over 50 miles a day in my 8 and at $2.50 a gallon, I'm REAL interested in improving the fuel economy!
Now, I manufacture plastic shipping containers for Mazda North America and Mazda Japan reman programs. ALL, I repeat ALL of the rotary engine department people at Mazda have told me emphatically NEVER RUN SYNTHETIC OIL in the rotary. PERIOD.
It is possible some of them may burn adequately but Mazda has not tested them to find out which ones do. I have seen dismantled rotaries that have had synthetics in them, it's not pretty. First, the synthetic oil that did not burn properly forms little gummy ***** in the combustion chamber that get caught between the edges of the rotor and the side plates. The longer they stay there, the harder they get, until they wedge between the plate with sufficient force to start destroying the seals. At that point, kiss your sweet running engine good bye.
BTW, I am working with a guy selling a fantastic oil additive. Mazda will not test it in the Renisis, because if they do, they would have to test every additive that comes down the road. Dyno tests on my Formula Ford engine showed a marked HP increase, road testing in piston engined street cars showed an average of 12% increased fuel mileage. I am also not just going to pour it in my 8, so we are buying an older RX7 to test it in. If it destroys the engine, I'm out 1500 bucks, far cheaper than a new engine for my 8.
If it doesn't hurt the stock engine in the 7 in,say, 2000 miles, we are getting a remanned 13b from MNAO and dyno it, put it in the car, run it 10 k miles and then pull it out, re dyno to check for HP increase and pull it apart in front of a Mazda engineer from reman. If everything is okay, I'll see how it does in my 8 and in either case, I'll report our test, in it's entirety, here.
If anyone is interested in keeping tabs on the test, PM me, as I don't have time to come to this forum too often, but I will do a folder in my email addy book and keep everyone up to date. We plan on starting the test in early May.
I don't know about you guys, but I commute over 50 miles a day in my 8 and at $2.50 a gallon, I'm REAL interested in improving the fuel economy!
04-14-2005, 08:57 AM
#187
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tto slick?
Originally Posted by bryrx804
I simply wouldnt recommend goin to synthetic. I was told its so slick and the rotor seals wont set.. ?
08-14-2005, 11:30 PM
#192
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Nobody has mentioned the Castrol 0w30 Syntec in this thread and I am wondering if there is any opinion/concern about this specific oil in the rotary. It is kind of strange, being that it is green in color, but apparently it is a great oil in non-rotary engines...
08-25-2005, 11:55 PM
#194
Hmmmmmm.........
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why do you suspect high deposits?
http://www.castrol.com/castrol/produ...tentId=6030793
"SYNTEC can be used with confidence in every gasoline engine passenger car, new or old, regardless of oil previously used. "
Andrew
http://www.castrol.com/castrol/produ...tentId=6030793
"SYNTEC can be used with confidence in every gasoline engine passenger car, new or old, regardless of oil previously used. "
Andrew
08-28-2005, 10:03 PM
#195
Your thinking of 0w-30 German Castrol. Aka the "green elixir". It was made popular both by its UOA results, and its difficulty in aquiring quarts of it. Its now extremely difficult to find, as its been basically discontinued.
You can read more about GC over at BITOG, as they have an entire forum dedicated to it, and its finantical users.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com
In terms of actual weight, 0w-30 GC is thicker then most 40 wt oils.
You can read more about GC over at BITOG, as they have an entire forum dedicated to it, and its finantical users.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com
In terms of actual weight, 0w-30 GC is thicker then most 40 wt oils.
08-29-2005, 05:45 PM
#196
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Ok I am new to posting but I have been reading this forum since Feburary 2005 when my turbo mx-3 blew up. Let it be understood that I am not trying to side with one or the other, I just think there should be a list of what to use which ever side you choose. I would like to assemble such a list so people can just choose what they want and be done with it. After doing a little research on this site (mostly based on opinion and experiance) I have made 2 INCOMPLETE lists. One of synthetic oils and one of mineral(dino) oils that seem to be ok for use in the engine. I have found alot on what synthetics to use but what other about dino oils? What other synthetics are good?
The lists so far. All are 5W-20 unless otherwise mentioned.
SYNTHETIC
Red Line
Royal Purple
Amisol
Mobil 1
MINERAL(DINO)
Castrol GTX
Mazda Rotary Oil
Pennzoil
The lists so far. All are 5W-20 unless otherwise mentioned.
SYNTHETIC
Red Line
Royal Purple
Amisol
Mobil 1
MINERAL(DINO)
Castrol GTX
Mazda Rotary Oil
Pennzoil
08-31-2005, 07:39 AM
#197
Castrol GTX is more of a semi-synthetic then a dino oil. It also has a hella lot of moly in it...something you don't usually fine in el cheapo oils.
Motorcraft 5w-20 Semi-syn is also a good semi-syn and appears to be the factory fill for all new mazda's. Its quite possible its also the factory fill for the 8 as well...though without a bunch of early UOA's, its hard to pinpoint it.
Motorcraft 5w-20 Semi-syn is also a good semi-syn and appears to be the factory fill for all new mazda's. Its quite possible its also the factory fill for the 8 as well...though without a bunch of early UOA's, its hard to pinpoint it.
08-31-2005, 08:13 PM
#198
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So instead of saying MINERAL it should say MINERAL/MINERAL BASED. As far as the list I have goes, how does Mobil 1 synthetic stack up against the other synthetics? I have plenty of good things about RP,Amisol and Redline. What other oils can be added to the list that is to say what other oils have people used and had good reliable results?
09-08-2005, 01:33 PM
#200
Thanks, Sue.....