Hymee

iTrader: (1)

Lola,

Thanks - I just saw that thread. It was very wise for the owner to call the pull. I wanted to do a quick sanity check, and now I think all I can say is that I am astounded!

Cheers,
Hymee.

lolachampcar

I forgot to mention in my Cobb AP versus EFIDude comparison that the Dude product comes with one very nice DataLogger. I’ve included a plot from it below.

I believe you must have access to good data if you are going to tune and, in my opinion, there is no better data to use then the date the PCM is using. That is why I like ProLogger so much. I also really like the “flying data” thing…..

devildog1679

Does the EFIDude, maintain the stock settings incase you ever want to go back? Fou people that have no idea about tunning (me) does it come with base maps like the cobb unit? I'm interested in which ever unit would be most economical but at the same time provide me with the ability to go back to stock and use maps generated by the experts.

lolachampcar

I just put a stock map back on the car we used on the dyno yesterday using the EFIDude tool (in about 47 seconds) so, yes, you can put the stock file back at any time with the EFIDude tool as well as the Cobb AP.

With respect to tune files, the safe route might be to use one of the 12.5:1 A/F gasoline files we generated a few weeks back. Once the file is on your car, you can check your long term trims quickly to make sure the intake system on your car is where you want it to be then do one very quick pull in a low gear to check the A/F ratios for yourself. The ProLogger portion of the EFIDude tool set lets you check everything for yourself and not take someone else's word for things.

Christian.

I am simply trying to add to the review. I think an analysis of feature set to cost would also be appropriate. I will post a few different features of the AccessPORT since you may not be as familiar with that device's feature set.
- The AccessPORT makes a back-up of your stock data.
- Ability to check and review MIL codes.
- Ability to reset ECU/MIL codes.
- Accelerometer performance testing, 0-60, 1/4 mile, etc.
- Comes loaded with dyno tested, proven upgraded calibrations, that are available for free downloading and are frequently updated.
- Ability to accurately calculate fuel economy.
- Live Date screen that can be used as a digital gauge.
- Auto-recovery mode if the reflashing process is interrupted.
- Field updateable dongle firmware.
- Field updateable device firmware.
- Extensively documented calibration notes that allow the end users to compare programmed data vs. achieved data in order to assist in finding mechanical issues.
- Literally, decades of professional engine and data acquisition calibration experience behind the calibration teams.
- Customer Service facilities with years of experience.
- The use of load based chassis dynamometers. Using an inertia dyno is fruitless when it comes to duplicating real world load conditions for an engine.
- Multiple language support.
- Device can be uninstalled from car and re-sold.

lolachampcar, I have a few questions for the EFIDude (EFID) device...since you seem to be representing that product.

Does the EFID product make a back-up of the stock data or is that overwritten and lost forever?
Can the end user check and review MIL codes with the EFID product?
Can the end user reset the MIL/ECU with the EFID product?
Can the end user use the EFID product do calculate performance differences between calibrations?
Who is generating the calibrations for EFID products? 1 person, 2, etc.
Can the EFID product accurately calculate fuel economy?
Can the EFID product allow the end user to view live data?
Does the EFID product have a auto-recovery mode if the reflashing process is interrupted?
Is the EFID product field updateable?
Can future updates be engineered then field updated to the EFID product?
Does EFID offer any documentation that the customer can use to verify that their vehicle is performing properly?
Who is providing the customer Service for the EFID products?
Was a load based chassis dynamometers used for the calibration development of the EFID calibrations?
Does the EFID product come pre-loaded with professionally tuned calibrations?
Does the EFID product support multiple languages?
Can the EFID device be uninstalled from car and re-sold?
Does the EFID product come pre-loaded with multiple calibrations for the end user to choose from?

I also believe the car you are using for testing or the testing procedures are compromised. I am not saying this to be negative, although, if you review our Map Notes for our Stage1 calibration, you can clearly see what the fuel curve is supposed to be like on a mechanically sound vehicle. The fuel curve is not supposed to lean out with continued load and RPM. I believe that your "tuned" calibration also demonstrates this feature which leads me to believe the testing procedures are compromised or the vehicle's engine has been. By analyzing our Map Notes, you can clearly see that this particular car is not performing as it has been programmed to and I suggest that the car be reviewed by professionals before further tests are performed. Otherwise, these test results will be invalid IMO. Your thoughts?

I will post some of the information from our Map Notes of our Stage1 calibration so the readers of this forum understand why I am concerned with how this car is performing. Below is a picture of what the graph of the fuel curve should look like on this vehicle. I will also include the test that is below that picture that explains some additional and important details.

As I mentioned above, I am very concerned about how our calibrations are performing on this vehicle. Please ask the customer who owns this vehicle to contact me christian@cobbtuning.com or (801) 713-0035. It is obvious that something is wrong and I would be happy to assist them with their technical support needs. Again, as the dyno graph of your "tuned" calibration shows, you also ran the car dangerously lean? You had also mentioned in a previous thread that the upper RPM ranges of your test vehicle were having issues. Again, I believe something is being compromised with the testing or the engine has been compromised somehow. Is it possible to reflash the vehicle back to the stock ROM so it can be tested on a load-based chassis dyno? Comparing the stock vs. tuned calibrations on load-based chassis dyno would be a good place to start in order to find the problem(s). We should be able to figure this out through further inspections and I am happy to help with this process.

Last, but not least, are the future upgrades that we are busy working on.
- Virtual Dyno Graph Feature
- AccessPORT used for datalogging of vehicle.
- Multiple market support, JDM, EUDM, AUDM, etc.
Its very exciting to see what a group of enthusiast and engineers can do for and with an intelligent product.

Take care,
Christian.

lolachampcar

Christian,

Thanks for joining in and thanks again for adding a bit of sanity to Trey and my conversations!

I am not representing anyone. No, really, I do not own EFIDude. I do not own a part of EFIDude. I do not work for them. I just think they are good guys and I think they have a neat product.

With respect to your questions, here is what I know-
Stock files are available for reloading at any time.
MIL codes, expanded diagnostics, real time data monitoring and the like is coming with Hymee's ScanAlyzer. He has taken me up on the challenge to port a good quality scanning tool to the high speed USB2 to CAN interface that is the EFIDude dongle. Those that are familiar with Hymee's work can speak more to its quality than I can.
As for calibrations, my input to this whole process is attempting to generate Open Source tune files that people can use as is or for a basis to work from when EFIDude ships their freeware file editor. I would think professional tuners might pick up the product as well and will provide files of their own, especially when the Dude guys get to supporting blown applications beyond the Pettit SuperCharger. There is sure a cost incentive for them to do so as they can ship a quality data logger and reflasher with each of their kits for a fraction of the cost of an AP.
There is a recovery mode. I have used it to fix another flash tool manufacture's PCMs when they bricked them.
I am glad you brought up the whole idea of field upgradeability as it is built into the core product architecture. Every time you start ProLogger it checks the internet (if you have a connection) for updates and then loads them automatically. The dongle is a simple USB2 to CAN link in addition to a stand alone Data Logger and a stand alone ReFlasher. It takes on each of these personalities under your direction. In essence, you update the dongle's firmware every time you tell the device what you want it to be. The firmware comes from the ProLogger application which is constantly kept current without you having to lift a finger. So, in short, yes there is field upgrading going on - BIG TIME.
Data Logging is the best way to make sure a car is running correctly so, yes, the EFIDude product supports this. In fact, Data Logging is the very center of what the system is about. You need to see the very same data the PCM is using to make decisions if you are going to tune (just my opinion).
EFIDude supports the product. That being said, the concept is really like an IPhone in that it only does certain things, it does them well and, once you've seen it in action, you really do not need someone to tell you how to use it. Just download ProLogger (for free) at www.EFIDude.com and grab one of my data files I've posted. You'll get the idea quickly without any guidance from me or anyone else.
As for tunes, again, I am trying to bring this whole process out into the light of day. I was blown away that anyone would ship tunes pre-loaded that produce the types of A/F ratios I saw. Yes, there could be something wrong with the car and it may need a "professional's" attention. However, if the car were lame in any way, why would it produce exactly the horsepower you would expect of a stock RX-8 with the stock map and produce exactly the A/F curve you would expect from a stock flash if it were lame?

Christian, there is no way a little company like EFIDude is going to go head to head with Cobb. They could not match your marketing budget or firepower if they wanted to. They most certainly can not match your feature set with all the G-Force analyzer features. I really do not think they are trying to.

What they are trying to do is provide a tool that will flash a car and then let you check the results once the flashing is done. You can get that flash from your favorite tuner if you ask. The tuner does not have to spend a lot of money to generate the file and thus you should get charged for his time and expertise without the burden of his/her paying for the Cobb pro tuning environment so he can get you your file. Or,,,, you can just do it yourself with the help of others on the forum and learn along the way.

Hymee

iTrader: (1)

Here is what I have to say,

How can intake system or a exhaust system skew a MAF sensor (unless the MAF itself is physically altered)? The MAF sensore is a bespoke piece of equipment that measures the mass of air flowing through an opening. Nothing downstream affects it's calibration, and nothing upstream ought to either. The only caveat on this is if the "modifications" directly affect the physical nature of the sensor itself.

If this pre-packaged tune is dangerous for this vehicle, then perhaps that I why I have never been fond of pre-packaged tunes.

Lola didn't tune the car to "his" targets. From reading all this, he mearly wrote a map to "emulate" the AP tune to compare. It run the same numbers, so it seems like they compare well. I'm 100% positive Lola's own "perfect tune" would not target the same AFR's as the tune under test.

Cheers,
Hymee.

lolachampcar

Christian,
I've said this in private but want to do so in public now. I think the AP is a neat product as well. I'd like to buy one as soon as you will sell me one with the software necessary to edit blown files. I told Trey the very same thing. I just happen to be dumb lucky enough to buy one of every tool just for grins.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Because it does not know the diameter or shape of the pipe in which it resides.
When Mazda set up the MAF, they flow-benched the actual airflow and set up the calibration of the MAF table to that.
If you change ANY dimension of the tube in which the MAF resides, the quantity of air that passes through the tube may be different than what the MAF was expecting and it may be different in unpredictable ways.

lolachampcar

In addition, it seems other changes to the inlet system MAY muck with MAF calibration as well. I've been hoping to find someone making the move from stock to aftermarket intake to check LTFTs before and after.

lolachampcar

Hey Jeff
Someone told me these were your tunes on the AP. Are those 14.5:1 AFRs the reason you call yourself Maniac?

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

They aren't 14.5:1 tunes on uncompromised engines/setups. Obviously, out of 44 cars running my calibrations on the AP at the moment, only 1/2 dozen are producing atypical results and they will be dealt with accordingly.

No, they call me Maniac because I subject myself to the ruthless inanity of comments like the one above.

lolachampcar

Poor put upon Jeff. You finally shipped something and, by your own words, more than one are seeing 14.5:1 AFRs. Oh, I know, it is not your doing; its the car, it is the guy on the dyno, it is the moon and the stars not being aligned correctly. You could not possibly be incompetent, could you?

Come on big guy, come out and play.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Wow. So the inner ******* in you finally came back out to play? What's wrong? Dan Harrison not doing it for you anymore?

You can call me what you want. Doesn't matter to me. All that matters is that the people that trust me to deliver get satisfaction.
Of course its my doing. They are running my calibrations, aren't they? (Well, some are, anyway.)

How about you come out to play? So far you are just all talk (oh, and one lean dyno).

Hymee

iTrader: (1)

I'm not sure if you are agreeing with me, or aguing with me. The MAF includes the sensor and the tube it resides in.

If the MAF is changed in any way, all bets are off. But that was not the case. The argument was made on other parts of the intake, and the exhaust system would affect the MAF, and that us just not true. It was mainly the exhaust system affecting the MAF that I questioned, as it does not make sense. As far as the MAF is concerened, anything before or after it shouldn't make any difference. It is a calibrated unit in it's own right.

The MAF sensor, by good design, must not be affected by "other" things. It measured the amount of air flowing at a location. That is all. Any other outside influences mean it is a useless piece of crap. I don't believe the auto industry invested millions of dollars in state of the art technology to be a peice of crap.

Cheers,
Hymee.

lolachampcar

You shipped it and it does not work. It does not get any simpler than that.

Blame it on me, the dyno, the car, the whatever. Redirect the conversation to something other and AFRs if you like. Do whatever you need to do to justify it all.

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

I thought that I was antagonistic Let's all play nice and see what we can learn for each other......not try and see who has the larger package

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

It would also be nice to see what causes the large variability that this car seems to have. Doesn't make sense to me..but i have seen it on the two engines that I have had in my car....drastic differences in tune....

Christian.

This is not calling you out, just stating facts of what we have datalogged and proven through research and development. You obviously have not tuned a 350Z, FI Subaru, G35, Mazdaspeed3, EVO X, etc. Those vehicles WILL alter the AFR when post MAF sensor changes are made. The above blanket statement you just made is absolutely untrue. Once the pumping process is changed, the effective Lambda will also be altered. If that were not the case, then can you explain to me how the 350Z leans out when you install high-flow catalytic converters? Why does a Subaru lean out with a drop-in air filter? Why does the G35 lean out when you install headers? Why does an EVO X lean out when you install a filter using the stock MAF housing? I could go on and on, I hope you get my point. I am open to your opinion on these matters, and I will be happy to show you our test results if time allows.

An OEM uses a "prepackaged" tune just fine. This is why we issue Map Notes for users to research, then then can use the AccessPORT to verify the tune in a proper, safe environment. The great thing is, if this is a calibration from one of our professional AccessTUNERs, then we will allocate our resources to assist them with diagnosing the problem(s) that exist with this car. It is very obvious that this car is not running properly or something about this car is very different from the norm.

To further diagnose why this car is running particularly lean, I think it would be best to analyze the fuel curve as measured from the stock ROM on this vehicle? Is is possible for you to post this information? That would really only make sense, apples to apples. With that said, I am a bit baffled as to how this totally stock car is doing this. Some options as to why this is happening could be a failing fuel pump, clogged fuel injectors, clogged fuel filter, different than stock fuel injector sizes, etc. I cannot explain why this car has such a leaner fuel curve other than something mechanical is wrong or impaired with the fuel delivery system. Regardless, I believe a resolution can be found for this situation and I volunteer myself to assist. I am open to any additional feedback or thoughts?

WOW, I may have mistaken you as a professional. This sort of behavior is unmistakably childish. I hope I am mistaken and we can all continue these conversations as professionals. Otherwise, this will turn into another pissing contest that will do nothing but entertain a few.

Take care,
Christian.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Then I am agreeing with you.

However, ANYTHING in the intake flow path can and will change the way the MAF does what it does - not just the tube in which it resides.
If the air column is altered before or after the MAF, it will react accordingly.
This is why the various tubes with diameter/radius/smoothing changes are screwing with the MAF.

I've played around with introducing diameter changes a foot or so in either direction and there is a massive shift in what the MAF reports as airflow changes through the load range.

I'm entertained.

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

For the record, I have one of the cars thats running lean. Jeff has been more then willing to help with he tune and he currently has a whole pile of data from my car to work with.

My car was also lean on cobbs maps - but i am outside of their map notes sice i have a highflow cat... so that was expected

Hymee

iTrader: (1)

Christian.,

What I said was the MAF measures and reports mass air flow to the ECU, of the air being drawn in to the engine. That is it's job. It is not untrue, and I am not spreading rubbish. I'm somewhat annoyed that I have been called for telling untruths. The truth is that a correctly calibrated MAF measures the air entering the engine. That is all that I said, and that is the truth. I DID NOT say any other mod doesn't affect the engines fuel requirements or resultant AFR's. I said those mods dont affect the MAF readings (calibration), unless the physical characteritics of the MAF is changed.

If a highflow cat is installed and the engine runs lean, that is nothing to do with the MAF. It is because the engine now has different requirements for fuelling.

So, for discussion purposes...

If this car was so far "out of tune" what about the fact/chance/theory that the LTFT's would have compensated for the gross "error" in the MAF, as the job of the ECU in closed loop is to build the trims to take into acount these errors. These trims are then applied in open loop mode. If the closed loop fuelling required 5% (or whatever number) richer / leaner to maintain stoich, then the PCM applies the same trim to the base fuelling in open loop. Hence the AFR's measured should be close to what the ECU is demanding. Care to comment?

I'm really starting to care less about trying to help people understand and demystify EFI. Would people rather I don't join the discussion? I'm sorry, but when I see something that I disagree with, I will say so.

Happy Easter.
Hymee.

lolachampcar

Christian,
Jeff is a professional that represents your product. He routinely uses gorilla marketing tactics to sell your product and you stay silent. I call him on the carpet once and all the sudden Cobb has something to say about childish behavior. That is a mighty high horse you are on pilgrim.

I said this privately to Trey and now I will say it publicly. Anything Jeff says he knows about how a RX-8 PCM works came from Cobb. I doubt he did any of the Mazda reverse engineering himself. Jeff then tells the world how it is and how others are ignorant. Cobb stands by while he does this. You'll forgive me if I take offense.

The car tested was just fine. Give me permission to pull Jeff's tune from his Stage 1 work and I will post the exact fuel map changes so everyone can see just how much fuel he pulled. Short of that, please feel free to defend your professional tuner and put all the blame on me. I've made my point and am moving on.

By the way, that point is not that I am any better than Cobb or Jeff.

My point is-

Anyone can do this provided they have good tools (like HymeeSoft, the AP or EFIDude) and an open and free forum to ask questions without being intimidated by people like Jeff. It really is that simple.

lolachampcar

I think Hymee may have something in that different cars and configurations may require personal attention.

Hymee

iTrader: (1)

I guess that is why I have been a long proponent of "editing" software. I started out when the RX-8 was released wanting to do something in this regard - this is well documented in this places history. I needed to learn a lot. I started with the CAN bus, which the RX-8 was one of the first cars to adopt. No tool was available, so I sourced some hardware and learned a bunch of stuff and wrote my own prototype. It was very basic, but showed amazing things and prooved the concept. I posted info. People like Canzoomer argued with me that the sensors were all wrong, and this sort of thing was dumb. Even until very recently MM argued with me about the accuracy of the wideband we are all blessed with on our cars.

That was the beginning of a dream, and it all started in late 2003. In fact, my Christmas present from my wonderful wife was the CAN interface. How things have come a long way. The dream turned into a journey, and I have dedicated a fair whack of my life chasing this goal of releasing an editable PCM tuning package to RX-8 enthusiasts.

The journey is fast approaching it's goal, and I'm thankful to all those who have supported me to date. A number of weeks ago I made a bold announcement that I would release my product first week of this month. In the interim period, another product came out of the woodwork. I guess I woke a sleeping giant that perhaps was ignoring the RX-8 community as too small - until there was a flurry or interest following my announcement.

I want to say that I am happy in myself in that I have always stuck to my beliefs, and editiable PCM tuning is the way to go. In a short period of time, the beta testers will be doing there own tunes and tests, and there will be a world class product hitting the shelves, that encompasses everything you would need in a tuning tool bar a dyno. And all without even opening the hood of your car.

There will be behind the scenes people to thank, and all that will come out in the wash. For now, I'll keep tight and concentrate on doing what I know - developing quality software. I am blessed that I am able to mix my profession and technical abilities with my love of cars, and a passion to learn.

Hopefully it won't be too long before my product is part of this shootout!

The best advice I can offer now is "Stay tuned"

Cheers,
Hymee.