lolachampcar

Me thinks you might be a bit biased for an unbiased evaluation (kinda like me). That being said, I here the EFIDude shopping cart is going live soon so it will be real easy to take a look for yourself.

alnielsen

iTrader: (4)

The Harrison unit just went live.
https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...57#post2307857

http://www.obdscan.net/RX8_PGM.htm

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Biased? I couldn't care less which won. I only care about which one works.
I'm not gonna push/sell a piece of crap.

Were I a developer, I might be biased, but I already have a solution that works gangbusters, so I'm just in search for the next step.

If you are worried about bias, I'd go running from this forum as fast as you can.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

the first lesson in Marketing 101 is not to bad mouth the competition out one side of your mouth while ballyhooing your own product out the other side

your digging aone hell of a deep hole considering that the competition's product isn't available yet to establish any basis for all this doodoo talk

Moon Assad

I have to disagree with the whos jonson is bigger, lets compare jonsons to a work area, shop, or garage. To enter you show a indoor picture of the facilty you each have at your disposal to include what belongs to you and projects and cars.

lolachampcar

Very unfair, especially for bag boy.

sosonic

So lolachampcar, will the EFIDude work internationally? Meaning other RX-8 models like JDM, Europe, Canada, etc...

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

You just made beer come out of my nose.

lolachampcar

The reflashing will.

I am working on the maps for an EFIDude customer/friend of mine who has customers in Europe. The map edits have been transferred to the EU firmware in the exact same way they were migrated to the different version of firmware in the US and thus I believe it will work perfectly. I will let you know when I prove that it works.

Hymee, are the maps the same in Au?

sosonic

Situation 1:

So, if I understand you correctly. An EU car should be able to use the EFIDude to copy the flash, edit that flash, and download that edited flash back to the car? This would be the same for US, JDM, etc...?


Situation 2:

Now a different scenario would be taking a JDM flash, editing it, and downloading it to a US car.

When you are talking "map edits" are those saved separately so that it can be transferred to a different flash?

For example- you upload a JDM flash ( with EFIDude or download to PC directly from the Internet) and edit it. Those "map edits" are saved to a separate file. You then upload a U.S. flash ( with EFIDude or download to PC directly from the Internet ). Take the saved "map edits" and edit the U.S. flash. Then load the modified U.S. flash to the U.S. car with EFIDude.

Even though the PCMs were different for the JDM and U.S. cars. The fact that the EFIDude tool through the OBD-2 port could read both flashes, and the Pro-Tune software from EFIDude was able to make changes to both and transfer "map edits", you then have a "transferable" flash.

Is this correct? Feel free to correct this.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

The checksums are different.

sosonic

The difference in the checksums would not necessarily effect the software program's ability to edit the flash nor transfer map edits.

We are not sure how the flahses are different. Once you know how and why the checksums are different than there are numerous things you can do. We also don't know what parts of the flash are different.

However, we do know that there are going to be numerous compatibilities between the flashes, regardless of region. The "values" for the changed map edit points may be the same, even if the entire flash's checksum were different. Perhaps only the code at the beginning of the flash is different. Obviously, changes can be made to a flash of the same region and apparently in the same way.

The software itself could account for regional differences, allow the selecting of different regions, or be adjusted for differences in numerous ways.

The software on the PC could be adjusted for differences between the JDM flash and US flash (or other regions).

A simple handheld device may not necessarily have the same kind of flexibility as software on a PC.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

The header is also different.
If one had a sophisticated enough decompiler, you could hand-assemble the flash, but most of the devices that are coming to market just pull the existing flash, re-write a few small (but important) segments of it and push it back into the PCM.
The header/hand-shake/checksum need to be the same and the secure hash needs to line up.

Hymee

iTrader: (1)

I know what you mean by checksum (and I obviously know how to calculate it ) but what do you mean by your terms "header", "handshake" and "secure hash"??

Cheers,
Hymee.

sosonic

However, your comments does not discount the transferability of "map edit values" between flashes of different regions nor there being a "workaround" method.

The ODB-2 devices, such as EFIdude or sCANalyser will be able to record and load the flash into software on the PC.

Regardless of region, the software on the PC will be able to edit the flash. This means the PC software will be displaying specific data with values that can be edited.

The header/hand-shake/checksum are parts of the flash that would not be necessary to edit. Only those values/segments that relate to performance variables. Those "values/segments" are the changes that you can make on the flash. Those changes can also be saved.

It is unnecessary to decompile the code, as if you were decompiling assembly or C. The tuner software on the PC is already displaying the data in human readable form. That segment of the code would be "reversible" to human readable form. Otherwise, a person would not be able to understand what they were editing.

The "values" of the "map edits" could be transferable or the software can be designed to adjust for distinct differences between flashes of different regions.

If the EFIdude Protune software or Hymee software can edit the flash of any region recorded by their OBD-2 device than it's logical to assume that the values that can be edited are similar. If they are so similar than the likelihood of its transferability is high.

It also makes sense for Mazda to create their flash in this way. It does not make sense for them to create radically different flashes in structure or content for different markets. Mazda itself, also had to use software to create the flash.

Even if it was the case that saved "values" of 1 flash, could not be transferred to another, it would still be useful to compare them. Meaning being able to view the saved "map edit" or "map edit values", can still be enough information to allow the user to make similar changes on the flash of a different region.

Hymee, MazdaManiac may also be referring to security features of a flash or map built into the tuner software, written into the flash, or recognized by the OBD-2 device. However, that should not affect free maps or flashes, or those shared with the entire RX-8 community. The tuner software will allow you to make your own map and you should be able to share it or flash other RX-8s (based on the license of your software).

Also, "map edit values" as oppose to the "entire map" from one type of tuner software would not necessarily work on another type of tuner software. I'm referring to the editing of flashes by the same product from the same company.

lolachampcar

Someone has been mucking around with Ida (Pro that is for this proc).

lolachampcar

Sosonic – Good comments. I’ll give you my perspective.

There are thousands of hours wrapped up in the PCM’s real time operating system so I would agree when you mention – “transferability of "map edit values"”. There is a table listing in the Speed3 file and thus I would suspect the same for the non-US spec. PCMs. I’ll look at the UK files and confirm but, if the same structure is used cross platforms then you can bet it will be the same cross continents same platform.

With respect to reading something other than stock files, the Dude hardware does not currently support that and I am lobbying the guys to leave it out. I think we will get more value from tuners if we honor their work by not lifting it.

On the subject of how solutions are dealing with different regions and checksums, and and and, this would seem to be a good place to talk about philosophies. Near as I can tell, and I am an outsider here, there are vastly different approaches from the different solutions. H R&D leaves you to WinOLS, Dude does the freeware editor, Hymee does the nice GUI editing package and Cobb does the super nice all around package. The solutions are almost priced in that order as well. I think the pricing goes something like Dude, R&D, Hymee and Cobb.

My comments here are directed towards the Dude approach as I think it most applicable to the largest number of people. Their freeware editor allows an average guy with tuning knowledge to work with the PCM. There is also a channel back to them to have “stuff of interest” added. The idea behind this is based on the simple fact that a broad range of people with varying interests can get a lot of work done to the betterment of everyone. It is my hope that the Dude tools will get a whole bunch of people loose with OLS trying different things (yes, there is a pure bin import to the Dude tools so you can blow your files on a car). In summary, you get a good starting point with which to work that will be good enough for most people while actively supporting those who what to look deeper and play (like me). For example, I’ll be working on the EU checksum if it is different and giving that back to the Dudes for free inclusion in their software.

There are a lot of reasons to decompile. One of the biggest is to identify what the designers were doing with each map. The biggies are all known in the freeware package. It is my hope that the curious out there will add to the knowledge base. The average guy can tune all he wants and need know nothing of decompiling if he does not want to. As you correctly point out, map editing is the goal. If you do want to play, the support is there.

The last few paragraphs of your response deal with sharing. The Dude stuff will come with “starting places” for naturally aspirated and forced induction as their contribution. It is my hope that the RX-8 community will share and, by doing so, we will all learn. What we have been missing is the physical interface and a simple freeware editor and that is why I’ve been pushing the Dude guys to actually sell their stuff.

sosonic

I agree with this. It only makes sense for Mazda to have done this.

I think the EFIDude should read whatever flash is on the car, otherwise it seems you would limit its usefulness. You would prevent "the average guy with tuning knowledge to be able to work with the PCM" in a number of cases.

What if one RX-8 owner modified a map and uploaded to his friend? Would you punish them, by not allowing the EFIdude to upload the flash? What if the EFIdude is used in Canada or JDM? How would tell that it was or was not a stock flash? What if the user wants to "backup" their present modified flash before making changes or make new changes to a modified map?

I think Pro-tuners can protect their flashes by agreement with EFIdude and some code, not sharing their maps with the community, agreements with their customers to not publicly share their maps, etc...

You seem to be indicating that EFIdude's Protune will be a freeware package. So my understanding is that you just pay for the pro-logger and VIN correct?

I agree that the RX-8 community has been missing needed tools for the ECU and maps that other cars have. Finally, that can change.

lolachampcar

The Dude stuff can read the stock file and use it as a starting point. I've just encouraged them to be careful with this feature in that unprotected work could be freely copied and it is my feeling that this would be bad for the community long term. Some stuff has shipped from tuners prior to all of this and thus there is unprotected work out there. I have suggested to the EFIDude guys that they honor a NO READ in the same way that WinOLS does.

With respect to the editing tool, the very nature of an open development environment means they should be receptive to changes in the software that allow people to use it in the most productive fashion. I think you will see the tool evolve as people come up with better ideas to make it more useful.

On the subject of sharing files, if you have a file on disk and give it to someone they can install it on a car (provided it was the correct year car, of course). There is no restriction on moving disk versions of files. Backups are handled automatically in that you can not overwrite a file. If you open and edit a file, you must save it under a new name.

On the hardware front, my understanding of the time line is that you get ProLogger to start followed by availability of a reflasher personality upgrade (same hardware you have been using to log with) and then the shareware editor. I am certain they have a means to deal with adding more cars or VINs to a programmer. The stuff I have been using is completely open but I think there is the whole VIN counter for professional tuners and buy a VIN from the web site for the average guy that just wants to add his buddy’s car. This has not been my concern and thus I’ve not asked too many questions on the subject.

stuartm

^ and the worrying part is you weren't even having a drink

lolachampcar

There really only appears to be two solutions available at this point.

Finally, I have some results. They are a bit surprising. I will get the plots done and posted this weekend.

alnielsen

iTrader: (4)

We'll be patiently waiting.

lolachampcar

I started this thread because I was looking for a very simple comparison of the available tools to do RX-8 reflashing. I really just wanted to concentrate on the mechanics of doing the reflashing and not get into the whole tuning part of it. I was not able to separate the two so I had to wait a bit for results. I now have some (not all) results. This is not meant to be “The definitive last word” on anything. It is just some data and my thoughts on the data.

I use the EFIDude tools, like them and thus must be considered biased. That being said, I’ve not doctored the attached graphs in any way nor have I fudged the math below.

I have attached three dyno graphs. They are my “Stage 1” versus a Cobb AP Stage 1, my “Stage 1” against a stock pull and Cobb AP Stage 1 versus Cobb AP Stage 2. I put my “Stage 1” in quotes only because I would never do something like this. I only did this tune to match the A/F ratios of the Cobb AP Stage 1 tune so it would be more of an apples to apples comparison.

The bottom line is you get about a 15 hp max bump in the middle of the pull no matter how lean you make the car run. I’ll use that number in the comparison below-

Cost per Horsepower
Cobb $700 (used for round numbers) divided by 15 is $46.66 per horsepower
EFIDude $300 divided by 15 hp or $20 per horsepower

Time to Reflash
Cobb Just under three minutes
EFIDude Just under a minute

Neat Factor
The AP is a neat little hand held device that I would guess is running Linux connected through a USB cable to a dongle that plugs into the RX-8’s OBDii port. It is nicely packaged and presented.
The EFIDude is nothing more than a dongle with an LED. There are absolutely no frills here.

Lastly, neither has file editing right now so there is nothing to compare. The Cobb is supposed to ship a file editing capability for an extra charge. EFIDude is supposed to offer a freeware editor downloadable from their web site. I suspect the Cobb software will be much nicer but have nothing to base that on.

Please feel free to comment, or correct me, on any of the above. I will not take offense.

Hymee

iTrader: (1)

Lola,

Does that mean when you get the AP and stick it on your car with the provided maps, that it is targetting ~14:1 AFR ??

I'll leave out smilies for now, and correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that dangerously lean?

Is that what one ought to expect from pre-packaged "one size fits all" tunes? If anything, I thought pre-packaged tunes would be on the conservative side of the envelope.

Cheers,
Hymee.

PS - Why does the red Stage 2 pull come up short on revs? (stops early?)

PPS - Well done, it looks like you did a pretty good job of replicating the pre-packed maps. The graphs appear to "drive over each other".

lolachampcar

I asked the same question about the A/F ratios myself in https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-engine-tuning-forum-63/good-air-fuel-targets-safe-na-horsepower-139278/page3/.

Why would you do something that could damage someone's car (cat, detonation???) for no horsepower? It just does not make sense to me but then I do not know all the answers in life.

As for stopping short on the Cobb AP Stage 2 run, the owner of the car and I agreed that I would pull the plug on a run if he saw something he did not like. He did not like the A/F hitting 14.5:1 under full load and shut me down. I think that was a good call on his part. Even though I cut it short, you can see that removing more fuel was not making more horsepower.