Phil's 8

iTrader: (3)

My guess is that this will be long settled before SevenStock.

tdiddy

I think this sounds good in theory but I don't like the concept of testing on customers cars. I am a computer programmer and before I would even consider flasing my car with one of these applications I would have to know a lot of background on the product(s). How long has the solution been developed? What are the processes and procedures for flashing the car? What kind of testing was done on the code? How many cars have already been flashed? How many cars are currently and successfully running a flash? Can the baseline OEM flash be reloaded? What defects/problems have already been identified and fixed? ect. ect. ect.

It seems like some places are doing the proper requirements gathering, analysis, development, and testing of the product before releasing it. Others I

lolachampcar

The stuff EFIDude is offering has been used on development mules for almost a year. It is the only one of the group that I have a lot of first hand knowledge of apart from the H R&D. It has been on customer cars for about six months. The number of cars is Pettit's business but I think it worth noting that people that know nothing about flashing cars and the like have been out driving blown cars running only the factory PCM for some time now using the EFIDude solution. Cobb may be doing the same, I just do not know about it.

As for reloading the original cal, it can be reloaded at any time.

We can avoid any tuning related issues by simply changing something simple like the RPM limit on the test car and leaving all else alone. It would be very difficult and beyond the scope of a quick evaluation to start messing with blown tuning not to mention that doing that type of development is risky (which is why picking a good reputable professional tuner is so important).

I would just like to know who can actually do it, how quickly and efficiently they can do it, if I can buy it and how much it costs.

tdiddy

And the ones who actually drive their cars hard have been seeing AFRs in the 13s under boost and popping motors.

Thats a good start.

Leaving the tuning out of this, if you want someone to evaluate products to see if they are ready to release and which ones are better, then you need to allow the testers to use all of the features. If you don't know how everything works and how changes will affect the car then the products don't even need to be evaluated. Its not ready to market!

Lots of people can do it. Thats not the point. The point is that when it comes to software development, it can take months and even years to just do the development and testing of the CODE. Let alone the time it takes to test the entire system and finally perform comparison testing to competitors products. I just don't know how many of the reflashers are even ready for this kind of comparison, yet.

morkusyambo

Uh-oh. The cat is out of the bag now.

lolachampcar

So, we do not even put them side by side to see what is real, what you can buy, how long they take to program a car and how much they cost because the software and the systems are so complicated?

I was not suggesting a full blown technical evaluation because the tuning part of the equation takes too long and makes the process impractical. I was more focusing on what could be done by an average guy in a few hours.

I just want someone who does not have a vested interest in any of these products to "hold" them and tell us what they think. Everyone can still go on about how technically superior there particular horse is, I just want to see how real these horses are.

It was just an idea........

tdiddy

So all you want someone to do is verify that each product works? I.E. reflashes the ECU? Seems like a waste of time to me. The tunable systems are what people should compare and they going to be complicated (if they work properly). Why would a vendor make something that doesn't work at all?

Right now none of these "horses" are real! I cannot go to a website or a vendor and purchase a tool that will allow ME to reflash my car. I'm sure when products are tested and released to the public people will begin testing them. Until that day, there are no reflash systems available for the RX8 to compare.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

which is why this is appropriate:



comes in here accusing/implying everyone else to have stolen his genius work, really getting sick of this sh-t

lolachampcar

If it were to happen today, I think it would go something like this-

EFIDude
Availability: They sent a production unit for evaluation and it has started shipping.
Speed: Flashes in under a minute.
Editing and Tuned Files: Yes for both.
Testing: It has been shipping on customer cars for over four months.
Cost: $150-$300 depending upon features

Cobb
Availability: Not shipping yet but they sent us an alpha unit for evaluation.
Speed: Their video would indicate it is fast.
Editing and Tuned Files: Yes for editing, probably yes for a tuned file.
Testing: A lot if it is like other products they have sold in the past.
Cost: Probably well over $500 for a base model without editing and over $1400 for one you can edit with.

H R&D
Availability: They sent a production unit for evaluation and it has started shipping.
Speed: Flashes in over seven minutes. I am really not sure as I got bored and left it running on my bench.
Editing and Tuned Files: Nope.
Testing: ??
Cost: $220 to $390 if I read their web site correctly.

Some of the above is just a guess as I have not seen the Cobb product (although I’m probably close on Cobb given their other products). I’ve used the EFIDude product to edit and flash FI cars. I’ve had the H R&D for over four weeks so I know what it can do.

Regretfully, I am both biased and new to the forum so my opinion really should not count for much. This is why I was looking for an independent party to take a first look at these things and start the dialog based on first hand knowledge.

lolachampcar

There are products to compare and, if you have any interest in tuning, I would think an evaluation at any level would help. This forum is a very vocal part of the "public" and as such can test. Right now, anyone can say whatever they want because no one person has held these products in their hands. This could be a first step to rectifying this situation.

I do not want to include tuning as EVERYONE has an opinion on tuners. Each of those opinions is right for the person who has it. I do not think there is a snowball's chance of rating them. There is a very good chance of doing a QUICK cursory look at, and rating of, re-flashing tools.

shaunv74

One critical part to include is what features are tunable in each package and the user friendliness.

Are you updating a Slick UI that makes it easier for an average person to safely make changes or are you in a microscopic table with lots of greek symbols that you'd better be on a first name basis with to safely make changes.

lolachampcar

I could not agree more. I think the reviewer should provide some feedback (with screen shots and the like) on the user interface and exactly what each package allows you to access. Cobb and EFIDude should differentiate themselves nicely. On one side you will have a highly polished user interface (I am assuming Cobb will use their current one) and access to a very large maze of values to modify. On the other end, you will have a simple interface to the small set of values that need editing (along with a very slick tool to log data for actually tuning - In my opinion, you can not tune a car without using the exact same data the PCM is seeing so EFIDude gives you easy access to the exact same Load, RPM, Wheel Speed, Mass Air Flow, Long Term Trim and more that the PCM is using when it makes its fueling decisions). The price points could not be further apart either.

One thing to keep in mind is that the EFIDude tool set was created as a tool to accomplish a task. It was not created to have a lot of glitz but to simply enable one forced induction tuner to get his package sorted using the factory PCM. Now that it is done, why not share those tools with the rest of the world (as I lobbied EFIDude heavily to do)? The last project they did was a completely stand alone OEM replacement fuel control with data logging for the Yamaha Raptor 700R which worked very well. I know because I grafted one to my methanol burning single rotor ROTARY Zanardi Kart. It runs well with ICC shifters which is no easy task. I have confidence in EFIDude because I have used the RX-8 tuning tools as well as their previous product, the complete fuel control.

We have already discussed the risks of actually using the editing and how that would be beyond the scope of a simple evaluation. I agree. The benefit I have is having used the EFIDude tools to tune forced induction RX-8s; lots of them. I know their stuff works.

Lastly, I am also pretty sure that the Cobb stuff will work well but everyone has to deal with bugs. I have been part of the bug reporting and fixing process with the EFIDude tool set over the last six months so I know the big ones are gone and any little ones that will crop up will be fixed quickly. I also firmly believe that Cobb will have done their homework as well before they ship to the world. If they have a bug, you can bet they will get it addressed quickly.

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

I see the one criteria that actually matters is left out... did the tuner actually correctly change ALL of the tables needed for the application

lolachampcar

See above.

I tend to agree that making changes is in the domain of the tuner and is beyond the scope of a quick glance at the products. I think it is safe to assume that Cobb will change what they say they have changed. As for EFIDude, I have a lot of first hand experience using their tools and thus I have proven time and again that the changes made with their tools "take". If the evaluator is feeling adventurous, he/she can always make a safe plus change in fueling and use EFIDude's ProLogger to do a quick rip down the street to verify it. In fact, ProLogger could be used to verify anyone's map editing tools in the same way. Again, I think most of the discussion has said that this would be outside the scope of a quick evaluation and may best be left for an in depth evaluation at some point in the future.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Then it is not updating all of the tables. The rate at which the EEPROM burns is not controlled by the flashing software.
The Cobb, for instance, downloads the whole code first and then only updates the addresses that contain changed data.
So, its initial actions would take a few minutes and subsequent flashes would only take a couple of seconds.
If the EFIDude software doesn't do this, then I suspect it is pretty incomplete.

Of course, we also know that the EFIDude ignition programming (or lack thereof) is reason enough to stay away from it at this point.

zoom44

its not really the engine im concerned with. ive got plenty of resources for rebuilding the engine. im more concerned with bricking a PCM. those things are expensive


again. if nominated i have not only Pineapple Racing but i also have Corksport just around the corner. and Atkins not that far away.

alnielsen

iTrader: (4)

What is it with the N.W.? They have so many great rotary shops.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Bricking the PCM is a major concern. I'd want to know exactly how many PCMs the vendor had flashed and what years/models.
There is also a finite number of times a PCM can be flashed, but it might be in the thousands, even though they are only rated in the hundreds.

morkusyambo

Pineapple,Corksport,Atkins??? Are these also tuning "solutions" that will be released in the near future?

zoom44

Pineapple,Corksport,Atkins


no they are 3 of the top Rotary Specialty shops in the country. They are all with in a short distance of me and i know people at each shop. If we are going to do this comparison Im suggesting that i have plenty of resources at my disposal for testing.

morkusyambo

Cool.

HiTMaNN

Corksport isn't that far from Vancouver I have been planning to drive down there for years.

lolachampcar

Yep. All of the tables and all the constants (which you call tables to get to your 900 or so number) in under a minute.

You (or your "we") know nothing of the EFIDude stuff as I am certain you have not seen it. Your comments on ignition are comments about a tool you have not touched and thus can not be accurate. You can not know what you have not been exposed to. I have touched the tools and have in fact worked with them for many months. I can do with ignition what I want.

The above being said, this is not a who's Johnson is longer thread. If it is, I concede; your Johnson is longer. Now that we've got that out of the way, let's evaluate some other (re-flashing) type tools.

lolachampcar

All good points. Thanks for mentioning them.

Bricking is bad.

I have personally done over fifty reflashes. The EFIDude guys have done many more than that.

I have not bricked a PCM with the production tool nor has anyone else.

I have fixed two bricked PCMs from another vendor using the EFIDude tools.

You can pull the EFIDude tool mid-program and brick the car. You can then put the EFIDude tool in recovery mode and it will put a file on a bricked PCM (as I did twice for the other vendor when I had to fix PCMs he bricked).

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Well, then send me one and I'll compare them.