Christian.

Working with your tuner is the preferred means to a solution and I commend Jeff for taking this on...after hours, no doubt. I have already written instructions for our calibration team to make this a priority. Now, if I can just get the owner of this mystical car that lolachampcar is speaking about to contact Jeff or I so we can address the issue...life would go on and all will be satisfied.

MM, tuning an ECU is a science, how dare you say that ferry dust was involved!

Nice work BTW. I am glad you were able to come to a conclusion and assist your clients. I do not wish to freak anyone out...but this can be a normal occurrence.

For instance, part way through 2005, Subaru removed a sensor from the Legacy GT AT and when you flashed an previous tuned ROM onto the car it would immediately pull a MIL code because it was looking for something that was not there. We simply had to figure this out on our own and update our AccessPORT firmware from then on to recognize the 2005.5 LGT AT vs. a 2005 LGT AT.

Another example occurred when Subaru changed the fuel injector size in the STi, it went from ~500cc to ~540cc, and they DID NOT change the setting in the ECU that tells the ECU the size of the injector. The newer car effectively thought it had smaller injectors and made adjustments accordingly, but left a few STi owners scratching their heads and contacting us asking why their car was running so rich. The answer was simple. To figure it out took me a bit, but we were able to come to a conclusion and provided our customers with a solution.

To further back up MM's findings, I had this leaner issue with one of our clients who purchased the AP directly from us last week. A local shop simply ran the dyno stock and with our Stage1 tune, then reported their findings to us. I sat down and e-mailed them several things to check for and modified a calibration file appropriately. I literally made one new calibration that included all Stage1 changes, but left the fueling stock, and e-mailed it to them for testing. Low and behold, the fuel curve came out as perfectly tuned with the stock settings, yet the car still made more power due to our ignition advance, the lowed calculated load due to this oddity, and other settings of the Stage1 map. I really could not make up this story, and the associated dyno graphs with dates are linked below. I have pasted over the client's name because I have not asked for his permission to post his personal information.

Revised Cobb Stage1 Map vs Stock Power

Revised Cobb Stage1, initial Stage1 vs Stock AFR

Since this is bound to happen, we simply create Service Bulletins that are at the TOP of our Map database pages where the clients go do download maps.
Here is a sample of the Service Bulletin we had to publish to communicate certain EVO issues.
Here is a sample of the Service Bulletin we had to publish to communicate certain Subaru issues.

The moral of the story is this; we have discovered an issue that needs to be addressed. Great timing too, I had nothing else planned for work next week. Now I can focus on this and implement a solutions for our end users and generate educational documents (Service Bulletin) to inform the enthusiasts of the procedures they need to follow.

Tuning an ECU is a science, and it is playing with fire. You can get burned if you do not understand the science of an exothermic chemical reaction (lighting a match, burning a hydro carbon, etc.), physics, chemistry, mathematics, etc. The great thing is that with some patience, some appropriate data, and some feedback, most issues will be able to be resolved baring the car not having mechanical problems that need to be fixed. Working with your tuner is a relationship that you must have the patience and time to do. Otherwise...LEAVE YOUR VEHICLE STOCK, and enjoy it as is.

Who you choose for a tuner, and what products you choose is your choice as a consumer. Shameless plug to follow. You can work with experienced companies such as Cobb Tuning, Mazdamaniac, P&L Motorsports, and other professional tuning facilities who are dedicated to providing superior customer service...or you can work with the new kid (or new product) on the block. I for one, believe it is a great thing that you have that choice! In conclusion, complete your research and choose wisely.

Take care,
Christian.



BTW, please ship me back "the dust", I need to tune a built 20B in a FD with a GT42R next weekend and I will need some help

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

I'll have to see what UPS has to say about hazardous chemicals. I might need to use USPS.

morkusyambo

USPS, sending chemical and biological weapons in the mail since the invention of WMDs.

lolachampcar

I'm a dummy.

Stock tune .74ish lambda values in a given operating range.

Make a single pass reasonable fueling to get .84ish lambda values in the same area and pick up some horsepower.

Put in Stage 1 tune and get .95ish lambdas and no meaningful change in horsepower.

It can not possibly be a fuel pump weakness or a clogged fuel filter. We are REMOVING fuel demand not adding it!

Put the stock file back in and go back to .74ish lambda values. It is plainly obvious that the PCM has plenty of fuel at its disposal. I can not believe it missed this point earlier.

Lastly, same car with the same intake and on and on. The only change is the ReFlash. If you get results with a single variable change, the chances are reasonably good that changing that variable drove the change in results don’t you think?

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

You still have not answered the question about which car this is and which flash.
As I noted, I intentionally make these things work on ONLY the car they were written for.
At this point, you are just dodging the obvious concerns.

lolachampcar

And this is where I get into trouble with the authorities so I will try to choose my words carefully.

Tuning an engine is a straight forward process that does involve Verify-Change-Verify cycles. The Verify cycle is why EFIDude came out with ProLogger first. If you do not approach it in a careful well thought out manner, you can do damage. Anyone who has looked at plugs to jet their dirt bike knows you can stick a piston if you are not careful. Stay a little fat to be safe or be very careful going to the edge if you need the power for racing. I agree with Christian on this point.

Where I part company with Christian and Jeff is the idea that a reasonably intelligent person can not and should not attempt this. They may not be saying that outright, but what they are saying has a very chilling affect on anyone interested in playing with this stuff. I think that is a shame and I say so; sometimes with too much emotion.

People, you can play with this stuff yourself and it is fun. You can do it safely without any damage to your car if you use good old common sense and talk through your thoughts on a free and open forum. You can do it with an AP or you can do it with EFIDude stuff. The tool that implements your changes is not as important as the energy you put into making those changes yourself or with your tuner of choice. You can pay over twice as much for an AP and be tied to your tuner or you can insist that your tuner works with you to develop your tune using tools that cost less than half as much and that give you access to the changes that are being made to your car.

Trust a new kid on the block to tune your car, no way. Trust your own judgment and be engaged in the process, you bet. Whatever you do, do you not think it is a good idea to know exactly what is being done to your car? Please, log data, ask questions and, yes, if you want to try some edits yourself, do so. That is really all I did when I put some of these tunes on the dyno to see what was going on.

I hope no one found the above overly offensive.

morkusyambo

This thing was only shipped a few weeks ago. I find it strange that someone would even take their car to a dyno if they're worried about a lean tune. I find it strange that this someone would work with another tuner when they've allready paid for the services of someone else when they bought the device. Finally, I find it strange that this someone would not respond to the attempts of the devices' manufacturer and original tuner to help them with their supposed problems.

What I don't find strange is how this mystery man's car is being used as the focal point of the lunchroom food fight going on in here. In the same way mystery man and his car is not relevant to describing which "reflasher" works better than another, neither are any of these devices relevant untill end users have been using them for a while and start posting their own results, of their own volition whether good or bad.

Based on the content in this thread so far, the name should be changed to "Professional tuner mystery meat eating contest". Whoever can eat the most, or successfully poison the others mystery meat wins.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

I lol'ed.

lolachampcar

Everything was used exactly as it was intended and for the car it was intended to be used on. The order of testing was stock, your Stage 1, your Stage 2 (stopped early by the owner for way to lean running) and then stock. Asking about the owner is changing the subject. If they do not want to get on the forum and announce themselves then that is their choice. I can fully understand them making that decision.

Jeff, you did not change 50 maps to do this tune. I said at the very start of my postings that I thought Jim M was right. Fuel edits will provide some power and timing should be left alone. Jeff, you must agree.

The idle was a tad higher. The throttle pedal a bit more aggressive on pick up. There may even have been a bit more OMP together with some lowered fan turn on temps. No magic in any of this. It is just good old common sense that can be implemented by anyone.

morkusyambo

Yeah. Come on Jeff. Its just good old common sense. Anyone can do it. Just the other day I made a new belt for my S/C out of mystery meat and gained an additional 2lb of boost.

lolachampcar

I am going to take a small break. Please PM with any questions or if I can help in any way.

Thanks,
Bill

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Well, then outing Naarleven isn't a big deal then, is it? (Since he has already posted that he is working with both systems.)
You can't create mystery where there is none.

No, I must disagree. But you go ahead and do it that way with your free, open-source tune.

Yeah. Anyone can do it. Go ahead and do it then.
Obviously, you are a real sharp guy, quoting my own posts about the basic stuff like raising the idle and increasing the MOP output.
Why are you trolling for "open source" tuning then if anyone can do it?

Really.

Probably the best decision you have taken so far.

You are a charlatan, a thief, a liar and just a general waste of flesh and oxygen. Good riddance.

sosonic

In this shootout there are 2 points that put the advantage heavily on the side of EFIDude and Hymee.

1. International.

EFIDude and Hymee will address RX-8s in the Asian and Europe market.

A tool for the "world market" pushes for a tool that "everybody" can use, regardless of where they are at.

People will use that tool as a common interface to discuss their maps.

Even more, Hymee has advanced this forward with a freeware note making tool for maps and EFIDude will have a freeware/inexpensive version of their software out.


2. Tool designed for "everybody".

A tool that has an elitist design mentality, is a tool that should only be sold to Pro-Tuners.

You can't have it "both ways". Sell a product to the consumer, but tell them they are too stupid or its too dangerous for them to use its capabilities.

A tool that is for everybody is inclusive. Everybody wants to look at it.

What should not be underestimated either is tuning knowledge outside of the U.S and about tuning the RX-8 (like in the Japan market for example).... You are talking a multiplying type effect.

Where somebody in Australia figures out "A", a guy in Singapore figures out "B", and some guy in England figures out "C".

So what will be the common tool they collaborate with?

Both 1 and 2 above just begs for people to collaborate with each other and exchange knowledge. You simply can not suppress information for too long. Sooner or later, it gets out.

The egos and maneuvering will not stop the usual commonly known market forces from applying to RX-8 re-flashers.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

There is a pretty good chance that the AccessPORT will be working on Asian and European models.
Of course, since the ROM headers are different, it needs to be tested.
As is the case with EFID and Hymee. There is no free lunch - someone has to test the PCMs.
As far as an "elitist" design mentality, I suggest you get one of the available tools and try it yourself.
Just do it.

There is a reason that Bill has spent so much time trolling on this forum.
It isn't because he is looking to dispel an "elitist" design mentality.
Its because there is a huge chasm between knowing how to make the tools and knowing how to use them.

If you go out there on the Internet, maybe Wikipedia or something, I'm sure you will find some really detailed plans on how to make a violin.
Maybe even a parts list, a list of useful luthier tools and perhaps a supplier list for the exotic woods and other materials.
You might even succeed in making something that looks exactly like a Stradivarius.

Now, learn to play it.

With RX-8 PCM flash tools, there have been no Wikipedia articles. No "DIY". No progressive growth of the common knowledge base. Nothing.

For 5 years, I have been waiting and preparing for this tool chest.
What have all of you been doing for the last 5 years?

I'm not known for being particularly tactful, so I'll just say - get over yourselves.
How many of you out there have mastered the E-Manage?
The Int-X?
Well, the OE PCM is several orders of magnitude more complicated than either of those and operates on completely different principles.
I am certainly not suggesting that there aren't many of you that are capable of mastering this.
However, it is not a minor commitment - especially to do it well.
You aren't just going to buy a dongle, download an interface and run 11-second 1/4 miles.
Some of you may get one of these packages and never even get out of the driveway.
Others will have no improvement or create serious (or minor and annoying) drivability concerns.
Some will get the tools and do it right. Those people know who they are right now.

Over the next few months, the growth will be exponential.
There will also be new (and old) names entering the arena and a whole new level of pissing match will, inevitably, be created.

We'll see who (as Hymee has put it) is willing to put their left nut on the chopping block.

sosonic

MM understood. But, the market will dictate which is the most popular tool and there will be some very specific reasons why a tool becomes more popular than another.

I don't have crystal ball, I'm just an excited RX-8 owner. But as far as this shoot out and the old saying goes, "Time will tell".

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Popular is marketing.
Effective is engineering.

You pick which is more important to you.

Lipozene is popular.
Exercise is effective.

Lots 'o fatties on Lipozene, not so many on the treadmill.
Popular is often marketed as easy.

YMMV.

Easy_E1

iTrader: (2)

The easier it is the more poular it will be. No one want's to spend anytime learning anything. They just want instant HP gains without doing a damn thing.

Flip the 200 extra HP switch, that would be popular.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Well, I'm trying!

Red Devil

We all have read Cobb/MM's presence and .02 and it's been direct. As has Hymee done the same. Where are the actual EFI Dude reps?

I asked Lola directly in one thread as to his orientation with EFI Dude, and he openly stated he had no vested interest...

mysql

I don't know the true story behind the scenes, but what I've read on this forum has resulted with this understanding:

1. Lola appears on rx8club, and in his first post, badmouths Dan Harrison. The rant goes into some vague details about Dan stealing stuff. I email Dan and ask him to check out the thread. Dan does, and the situation quickly dies down.

2. Lola starts offering $1,000 for anyone who wants to write some software package.

3. When apparently no one takes him up on the offer, he writes that he is doing this as a hobby and doesn't work for EFI, then starts opening up threads where the apparent goal is to work with others for open source projects.

4. Nothing of substance magically appears within the new threads, and Lola gets impatient. Lashes out at Jeff and Cobb and in general makes himself look like he has deadlines to meet and needed information quickly.

I could be wrong on some of this stuff, but this is how it appears to me.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Best bet is to read his first dozen posts.

He's been going on about how he doesn't have a stake in EFID, but in his very first posts, he says he "created" the technology that he "gave" to Dan and then later "gave" to EFID.

MySQL pretty much nailed it.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Remind you of someone else?

alnielsen

iTrader: (4)

And every since that time you, seemingly, have been taunting & harassing him with with posts unrelated to the subject at hand. This over something he said weeks ago.

HiTMaNN

Lets Not

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Completely related.

He has stated that he wanted an "open source" tuning product.
Yet, the only calibration information he is interested in having "open" is the work of others who are not part of the project.
As soon as he realized he wasn't going to have his homework done for him, he got belligerent.

I'm sorry if his MO is not obvious to you, but it is to those of us from which he wishes to steal.

Furthermore, there is a whole subtext to this that is not plain to those just reading how it plays out here.