Renesis OIL PRESSURE Discussion with Dealer Tech
10-26-2009, 08:10 AM
#376
You have everything to contribute, but are simply flat out wrong. What have you ever accomplished of value regarding a Renesis engine? WTF are you but some guy who rambles excessively on teh intrawebz?
Saying nothing and knowing nothing aren't the same thing. In some circles nothing has a value. In those same circles it's also nothing to talk publicly about. There's nothing in it for me to save you from yourselves. Nothing is as it seems.
10-26-2009, 09:28 AM
#377
So why did you post if there is nothing in it for you? I dont understand?
If this is "wrong" and "fiction" then can you provide some insight into why this is not correct?
Facts:
1- clearances have not changed over the years (bearings/eshaft)
2- oil pressures and lubrication design for the 09's were changed. (Mazda doesnt do these things without a reason)
3- there is bearing wear on the s1 Renasis. Daily driver cars.
4- the oil pressures on the renasis are in the range of the earier model rotary's except for the twin oil cooled turbo model which had a different lubrication set up and those engine had over 100psi present
5- the s1 renasis has another 1K rpm range to demand lubrication for and a different type of heat issues
Now these are facts easily backed up. Whether are not changing the oil pressure on the s1 renasis will help the engine remains to be seen, BUT it damn sure looks lodgical to me and it will not hurt anything.
So Team, if you know something, share it.
Olddragger
If this is "wrong" and "fiction" then can you provide some insight into why this is not correct?
Facts:
1- clearances have not changed over the years (bearings/eshaft)
2- oil pressures and lubrication design for the 09's were changed. (Mazda doesnt do these things without a reason)
3- there is bearing wear on the s1 Renasis. Daily driver cars.
4- the oil pressures on the renasis are in the range of the earier model rotary's except for the twin oil cooled turbo model which had a different lubrication set up and those engine had over 100psi present
5- the s1 renasis has another 1K rpm range to demand lubrication for and a different type of heat issues
Now these are facts easily backed up. Whether are not changing the oil pressure on the s1 renasis will help the engine remains to be seen, BUT it damn sure looks lodgical to me and it will not hurt anything.
So Team, if you know something, share it.
Olddragger
10-26-2009, 05:06 PM
#378
Super Moderator
Thread Starter
Where are you reading the 90 PSI from?, can't recall if you said it before?
Have you done any "spring" mods...
Mazda Specs say RENESIS 1 is 64-71 PSI at OIL PUMP!!.
10-26-2009, 05:18 PM
#379
Super Moderator
Thread Starter
You have everything to contribute, but are simply flat out wrong. What have you ever accomplished of value regarding a Renesis engine? WTF are you but some guy who rambles excessively on teh intrawebz?
Saying nothing and knowing nothing aren't the same thing. In some circles nothing has a value. In those same circles it's also nothing to talk publicly about. There's nothing in it for me to save you from yourselves. Nothing is as it seems.
Saying nothing and knowing nothing aren't the same thing. In some circles nothing has a value. In those same circles it's also nothing to talk publicly about. There's nothing in it for me to save you from yourselves. Nothing is as it seems.
You say "I am Flat out Wrong" with NO evidence to BACK YOU UP....WEAK..
This proved it to me when you said....'Mazda changed Parts without changing Part Numbers'.. that you know absolutely NOTHING.
I have presented Mazda factory printed/made evidence, YOU HAVE PRESENTED NOTHING!!!..
Except cheap comebacks with NO SUBSTANCE..
So I say to you **** OFF from MY Thread....if you do not like what you read..
10-26-2009, 05:59 PM
#381
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10-26-2009, 06:24 PM
#382
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You have everything to contribute, but are simply flat out wrong. What have you ever accomplished of value regarding a Renesis engine? WTF are you but some guy who rambles excessively on teh intrawebz?
Saying nothing and knowing nothing aren't the same thing. In some circles nothing has a value. In those same circles it's also nothing to talk publicly about. There's nothing in it for me to save you from yourselves. Nothing is as it seems.
Saying nothing and knowing nothing aren't the same thing. In some circles nothing has a value. In those same circles it's also nothing to talk publicly about. There's nothing in it for me to save you from yourselves. Nothing is as it seems.
I am surprised that someone with over 8,500 posts and potentially lot of good info discredits other people's findings with sometimes nothing more than a 1-liner, while providing nothing in the way of evidence to support what he says.
Seriously Team, why even bother then? You have apparently been a member of the community for quite some time, and I doubt you have made it to this point with constantly just writing posts like this. I'm sure many of us on here would like to hear a disagreement, but we certainly need to hear you stating something that backs your position.
10-26-2009, 06:31 PM
#383
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Have you modded the pressure regulators? If so, which ones?
Here's one more thing we can consider: Is it possible that these OP regulators can only flow so much oil at a given pressure? Lets just say that one of them is supposed to bleed off any oil over 70psi. It may be possible that at 70psi it can only flow so much oil, therefore increasing the pressure in the system still to something higher like lets say 80 psi - and so on, and so forth. So, perhaps even though a stock regulator is made to bypass oil at a certain PSI, it doesn't necessarily cut it off - especially if you're using a higher viscosity oil. In these situations, what it would really be doing is tapering off the flow rate... Hmmmm..
10-26-2009, 07:43 PM
#384
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There's always a tapering at the flow rate - there's a loss from flow through the orifice which creates a pressure build up in itself, albeit fairly low in gain.
That's without any modifications, I didn't have time to pull the sump - as it was I ended up sleeping in the car overnight on the way to the event....
That's without any modifications, I didn't have time to pull the sump - as it was I ended up sleeping in the car overnight on the way to the event....
10-26-2009, 09:49 PM
#385
been there done that! Slept in the car I mean
no one in Ga has seen 90psi even with 20/50 oil. So I am curious also.
JUST DISCOVERED SOMETHING-------------
something I used to know for sure but forgot---Rick E (mazmart) does oil pressure regulator mods on the renasis engine as an option when a rebuild is requested. How about that!
Seems like this is not a "new" discovery, but as knowledge of this engine grows the more we will be able to do to help it out.
Mazdatrix sells the 93-85 rear regulator for $31.00 hell they even have the mazdaspeed adjustable one and 2 skims for the front offered at as a package for $99.
Christmas is not far off guys!
OD.
no one in Ga has seen 90psi even with 20/50 oil. So I am curious also.
JUST DISCOVERED SOMETHING-------------
something I used to know for sure but forgot---Rick E (mazmart) does oil pressure regulator mods on the renasis engine as an option when a rebuild is requested. How about that!
Seems like this is not a "new" discovery, but as knowledge of this engine grows the more we will be able to do to help it out.
Mazdatrix sells the 93-85 rear regulator for $31.00 hell they even have the mazdaspeed adjustable one and 2 skims for the front offered at as a package for $99.
Christmas is not far off guys!
OD.
10-26-2009, 09:59 PM
#387
Super Moderator
Thread Starter
What Mazda's Factory Part Manuals Says...
In the Interest of showing all those who think I am TOTALLY WRONG...here is a scenario...
A 2004-2008 MY RX-8 Owner walks into a US or Australian Or UK Or Europe Mazda Dealer Spare Parts Department and Buys the Following for his RX-8...
2 x N326-14-140 Oil Pump Rotors..
1 x N326-14-151 Oil Pump Chain
1 x B6Y1-14-3029A Oil Filter
2 x 0820-10-502B Stationary Gear Bearings 4 Port, (NF01-10-E04 6 Port RENESIS)
2 x N3A2-11-B11 Rotor Bearings
1 x 0839-14-115 Oil Pump Pressure Control PISTON/Plunger
1 x N3H1-14-237 Oil Pump Pressure Control SPRING
1 x 0839-14-274 Oil Pump Pressure Control Nut/Bleeder
1 x 3648-14-250 Rear Oil Pressure By-Pass Assembly.
(Internal Parts 1 x 0221-14-115 Piston and 1 x 0221-14-116 Spring)
************************************************** *************
A 1985-1989 MY FC RX-7 Owner walks into a US or Australian Or UK Or Europe Mazda Dealer Spare Parts Department and Buys the Following for his RX-7...
2 x N326-14-140 Oil Pump Rotors..
2 x N318-14-140 Oil Pump Rotors (Turbo)
1 x N326-14-151 Oil Pump Chain
1 x B6Y1-14-3029A Oil Filter
2 x 0820-10-502B Stationary Gear Bearings
2 x 1011-11-111 Rotor Bearings
1 x 0839-14-115 Oil Pump Pressure Control PISTON/Plunger
1 x 0839-14-273A Oil Pump Pressure Control SPRING
1 x 0839-14-274 Oil Pump Pressure Control Nut/Bleeder
1 x 3648-14-250 Rear Oil Pressure By-Pass Assembly.
(Internal Parts 1 x 0221-14-115 Piston and 1 x 0221-14-116 Spring)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++
A 1992~ MY FD RX-7 Owner walks into a US or Australian Or UK Or Europe Mazda Dealer Spare Parts Department and Buys the Following for his RX-7...
2 x N318-14-140 Oil Pump Rotors
1 x N326-14-151 Oil Pump Chain
1 x B6Y1-14-3029A Oil Filter
2 x NF01-10-E04 Stationary Gear Bearings
2 x N3A2-11-B11 Rotor Bearings
1 x 0839-14-115 Oil Pump Pressure Control PISTON/Plunger
1 x N3A1-14-273A Oil Pump Pressure Control SPRING
1 x 0839-14-274 Oil Pump Pressure Control Nut/Bleeder
1 x N3A1-14-230 Rear Oil Pressure By-Pass Assembly.
(Internal Parts 1 x 0221-14-115 Piston and 1 x Spring Not Listed By Part Number)
================================================== =======
Highlighted in BLACK are the Only Parts that are different by Part Number between the Series 1 RX-8 RENESIS and the FC or FD RX-7.
So for me the issue is OIL PRESSURE that is happening in the Rear of Engine, more specifically the REAR BY PASS VALVE.
The 3648-14-250 Used in the S1 RX-8 and ALL FC RX-7's is rated at about the 60-70 PSI Oil By Pass Relief, which is consistent to the Factory manuals and Pineapple Racing who test the original with their Air Pressure Guage (see Video) before and after they Crush the end to shorten spring travel and increase Oil By Pass Pressure this lifts the valve to around the 80 plus PSI mark. As the Guy says you should also spacer out the Front Oil Pump Pressure Control SPRING.
http://www.rebuildingrotaryengines.c..._Oil_Regulator
The Rear BY PASS Valve in the FD is set to by pass oil at 110 PSI according to on line manuals, although it uses the same 0221-14-115 Piston, the Spring IMO has changed (but for some reason Mazda do not list it's part Number) to achieve the higher By Pass Relief, going on memory the unit may be lightly shorter in length too.
The ONLY other Changes related to OIL PRESSURE are the Oil PUMP Rotors Width, the FC Turbo and FD use the same rotors and are 5 mm wider for each set.
And lastly the Front OIL PUMP Pressure Control Springs in ALL 3 Models.
The FC NA and Turbo use the same front spring even though they have different oil pumps.
The FD has a Different Front Spring to the FC even though they share the same Oil Pumps with the FC Turbo.
The S1 RX-8 has it's own Front Spring, but shares the same OIL Pump Rotors as the NA FC RX-7.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++
What to do....
IMO there is no point in improving OIL PUMP Pressure at the Front Spring as the OIL will still By Pass at Rear or Critical supply to engines internals at same or similar PSI Pressure as before the mod. Need to Mod both ends??
You would need to do the Pineapple Racing Crush method for the Rear Valve and Washer out the front Spring...
As I have said before we need a Series I RX-8 owner who is prepared to do the Mods then report on their Oil Pressure Numbers.
I have NO Fear at all about the Engines ability to withstand increases at all as engine internals are the same as the Series II RX-8, and OIL seals front and rear are also the same.
A 2004-2008 MY RX-8 Owner walks into a US or Australian Or UK Or Europe Mazda Dealer Spare Parts Department and Buys the Following for his RX-8...
2 x N326-14-140 Oil Pump Rotors..
1 x N326-14-151 Oil Pump Chain
1 x B6Y1-14-3029A Oil Filter
2 x 0820-10-502B Stationary Gear Bearings 4 Port, (NF01-10-E04 6 Port RENESIS)
2 x N3A2-11-B11 Rotor Bearings
1 x 0839-14-115 Oil Pump Pressure Control PISTON/Plunger
1 x N3H1-14-237 Oil Pump Pressure Control SPRING
1 x 0839-14-274 Oil Pump Pressure Control Nut/Bleeder
1 x 3648-14-250 Rear Oil Pressure By-Pass Assembly.
(Internal Parts 1 x 0221-14-115 Piston and 1 x 0221-14-116 Spring)
************************************************** *************
A 1985-1989 MY FC RX-7 Owner walks into a US or Australian Or UK Or Europe Mazda Dealer Spare Parts Department and Buys the Following for his RX-7...
2 x N326-14-140 Oil Pump Rotors..
2 x N318-14-140 Oil Pump Rotors (Turbo)
1 x N326-14-151 Oil Pump Chain
1 x B6Y1-14-3029A Oil Filter
2 x 0820-10-502B Stationary Gear Bearings
2 x 1011-11-111 Rotor Bearings
1 x 0839-14-115 Oil Pump Pressure Control PISTON/Plunger
1 x 0839-14-273A Oil Pump Pressure Control SPRING
1 x 0839-14-274 Oil Pump Pressure Control Nut/Bleeder
1 x 3648-14-250 Rear Oil Pressure By-Pass Assembly.
(Internal Parts 1 x 0221-14-115 Piston and 1 x 0221-14-116 Spring)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++
A 1992~ MY FD RX-7 Owner walks into a US or Australian Or UK Or Europe Mazda Dealer Spare Parts Department and Buys the Following for his RX-7...
2 x N318-14-140 Oil Pump Rotors
1 x N326-14-151 Oil Pump Chain
1 x B6Y1-14-3029A Oil Filter
2 x NF01-10-E04 Stationary Gear Bearings
2 x N3A2-11-B11 Rotor Bearings
1 x 0839-14-115 Oil Pump Pressure Control PISTON/Plunger
1 x N3A1-14-273A Oil Pump Pressure Control SPRING
1 x 0839-14-274 Oil Pump Pressure Control Nut/Bleeder
1 x N3A1-14-230 Rear Oil Pressure By-Pass Assembly.
(Internal Parts 1 x 0221-14-115 Piston and 1 x Spring Not Listed By Part Number)
================================================== =======
Highlighted in BLACK are the Only Parts that are different by Part Number between the Series 1 RX-8 RENESIS and the FC or FD RX-7.
So for me the issue is OIL PRESSURE that is happening in the Rear of Engine, more specifically the REAR BY PASS VALVE.
The 3648-14-250 Used in the S1 RX-8 and ALL FC RX-7's is rated at about the 60-70 PSI Oil By Pass Relief, which is consistent to the Factory manuals and Pineapple Racing who test the original with their Air Pressure Guage (see Video) before and after they Crush the end to shorten spring travel and increase Oil By Pass Pressure this lifts the valve to around the 80 plus PSI mark. As the Guy says you should also spacer out the Front Oil Pump Pressure Control SPRING.
http://www.rebuildingrotaryengines.c..._Oil_Regulator
The Rear BY PASS Valve in the FD is set to by pass oil at 110 PSI according to on line manuals, although it uses the same 0221-14-115 Piston, the Spring IMO has changed (but for some reason Mazda do not list it's part Number) to achieve the higher By Pass Relief, going on memory the unit may be lightly shorter in length too.
The ONLY other Changes related to OIL PRESSURE are the Oil PUMP Rotors Width, the FC Turbo and FD use the same rotors and are 5 mm wider for each set.
And lastly the Front OIL PUMP Pressure Control Springs in ALL 3 Models.
The FC NA and Turbo use the same front spring even though they have different oil pumps.
The FD has a Different Front Spring to the FC even though they share the same Oil Pumps with the FC Turbo.
The S1 RX-8 has it's own Front Spring, but shares the same OIL Pump Rotors as the NA FC RX-7.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++
What to do....
IMO there is no point in improving OIL PUMP Pressure at the Front Spring as the OIL will still By Pass at Rear or Critical supply to engines internals at same or similar PSI Pressure as before the mod. Need to Mod both ends??
You would need to do the Pineapple Racing Crush method for the Rear Valve and Washer out the front Spring...
As I have said before we need a Series I RX-8 owner who is prepared to do the Mods then report on their Oil Pressure Numbers.
I have NO Fear at all about the Engines ability to withstand increases at all as engine internals are the same as the Series II RX-8, and OIL seals front and rear are also the same.
Last edited by ASH8; 10-26-2009 at 10:01 PM.
10-27-2009, 02:54 AM
#388
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ASH, thank you for all the great info you have been providing. I'm glad I have become an owner at this recent point in time where there is plenty of great info built up in this forum.
10-27-2009, 03:20 AM
#389
Ayrton Senna Forever
You are not wrong Ash, I'm sure we are on the way to solve the bearing wear problem, but one more thing I don't understand.
So there is two stages in the oil line:
first: pump-coolers (or bypass under 90C)-rear valve (156PSI???),
second: filter-engine (71 PSI)
Actually this two stages means one oiling pipe.
I can't imagine how could be two different pressured stages in one line? I think the max pressure will always be determined by the lower pressure valve (71 PSI).
To put it more simply....for S1 RX-8's...
1. Oil is Sucked up by Oil Pump via Strainer/Pick up in Sump Pan.
2. Goes through Oil Pump, Control Valve sets pressure to 156 PSI, Excess Oil gravitates back to sump pan.
3. Then through Oil Cooler Feed lines at about 156 PSI, out of Oil Coolers "Cooled"
4. Then to Banjo Fitting at bottom of Rear Iron Housing
5. Rear BY Pass Regulator Cut's Pressure Down to 70-80 PSI, Excess Oil gravitates back to sump pan.
6. Then up through Oil Filter (where oil is filtered)
7. Then into Rear of Eccentric Shaft to Front and 2 Rotor Oil Jets, same lower pressure oil feeds supply to MOP
That is the OIL Journey under TWO OIL Pressure Zones.
1. Oil is Sucked up by Oil Pump via Strainer/Pick up in Sump Pan.
2. Goes through Oil Pump, Control Valve sets pressure to 156 PSI, Excess Oil gravitates back to sump pan.
3. Then through Oil Cooler Feed lines at about 156 PSI, out of Oil Coolers "Cooled"
4. Then to Banjo Fitting at bottom of Rear Iron Housing
5. Rear BY Pass Regulator Cut's Pressure Down to 70-80 PSI, Excess Oil gravitates back to sump pan.
6. Then up through Oil Filter (where oil is filtered)
7. Then into Rear of Eccentric Shaft to Front and 2 Rotor Oil Jets, same lower pressure oil feeds supply to MOP
That is the OIL Journey under TWO OIL Pressure Zones.
first: pump-coolers (or bypass under 90C)-rear valve (156PSI???),
second: filter-engine (71 PSI)
Actually this two stages means one oiling pipe.
I can't imagine how could be two different pressured stages in one line? I think the max pressure will always be determined by the lower pressure valve (71 PSI).
10-27-2009, 03:36 AM
#390
Ayrton Senna Forever
Glad to see you are hanging around Team--whats your thoughts on this?
This may be a wack thought--but i do wonder if some of the side weal issues we see can be traced to irregular bearing wear that cause a slight off balance condition? If a "system is in tolerance" and one tolerance changes --it affects it all? I may be way out in left field on that.
Also something that hasnt been mentioned in a little while--dont forget we have 1K more rpm to deal with that the earlier models. It would stand to reason that oil flow parameters would have to be adjusted for that?
Why didnt they use the FD pump on this car? Same reason they insisted on a 5W/20 oil i guess---dumb ***? Would loose a little power and it would affect gas mileage JUST a little?
OD.
OD
This may be a wack thought--but i do wonder if some of the side weal issues we see can be traced to irregular bearing wear that cause a slight off balance condition? If a "system is in tolerance" and one tolerance changes --it affects it all? I may be way out in left field on that.
Also something that hasnt been mentioned in a little while--dont forget we have 1K more rpm to deal with that the earlier models. It would stand to reason that oil flow parameters would have to be adjusted for that?
Why didnt they use the FD pump on this car? Same reason they insisted on a 5W/20 oil i guess---dumb ***? Would loose a little power and it would affect gas mileage JUST a little?
OD.
OD
10-27-2009, 04:55 AM
#391
Super Moderator
Thread Starter
You are not wrong Ash, I'm sure we are on the way to solve the bearing wear problem, but one more thing I don't understand.
So there is two stages in the oil line:
first: pump-coolers (or bypass under 90C)-rear valve (156PSI???),
second: filter-engine (71 PSI)
Actually this two stages means one oiling pipe.
I can't imagine how could be two different pressured stages in one line? I think the max pressure will always be determined by the lower pressure valve (71 PSI).
So there is two stages in the oil line:
first: pump-coolers (or bypass under 90C)-rear valve (156PSI???),
second: filter-engine (71 PSI)
Actually this two stages means one oiling pipe.
I can't imagine how could be two different pressured stages in one line? I think the max pressure will always be determined by the lower pressure valve (71 PSI).
Oil and Pressure Comes from OIL PUMP...Right..
It is said in Manuals for both the FC, FD and Series II RX-8 that Oil Pressure out of the Pump is around/about 156 PSI, Mazda says the S1 RX-8 is 64-71 PSI, I believe this is an error and they are talking REAR BY PASS.
So the "Higher" pressure OIL from Pump goes outside of engine in an Oil Line to Oil Coolers and the returns from oil coolers in another separate external line and ends up just below your Oil Filter where it 'Bolts' onto Rear Housing, it then is BY Passed by this rear valve DOWN to 60-80 PSI (depending on oil temps and the OP Guages used), the Lower pressured oil then goes into OIL FILTER and then Into Engine through the Eccentric Shaft...then out to the front of E-shaft by Heat Pellet, back into sump pan to start journey all over again.
The Engines Oil Pressure from Oil Pump goes from High to Lower, Not the Other way around, Oil is Bled from the Two Valves (front and rear) into sump pan and from two locations on the e-shaft (Front and Middle which goes through Iron housings into sump pan).
There is also a low pressure oil line gallery from rear going through top left of engine (along where the 'Mazda 13B' is stamped on the rotor housings) through ALL housings to front iron housing which feeds the Metering Oil Pump and or Turbo if Fitted..
Go Back and LOOK at the Rotary Oil Flow Diagram I posted, either in this thread or the other one.
Last edited by ASH8; 10-27-2009 at 05:08 AM.
10-27-2009, 04:59 AM
#392
Super Moderator
Thread Starter
BTW, I am trying to think who's RX-8 engine had a low pressure Oil Leak between the Rotor Housing and front iron dowell O ring ( there was a You-Tube Vid on it) , anyway Charles R Hill did the superb rebuild.
10-27-2009, 05:03 AM
#393
Super Moderator
Thread Starter
???, sorry mate, but the RENESIS does not have "wider" rotors than earlier, don't know where you got that one from..but, I agree I believe the Low Oil Pressure and Higher RPM just may be the main issue.
10-27-2009, 05:53 AM
#394
Ayrton Senna Forever
I made a very simple drawing. I think that the rear valve decrease the pressure in the line before the valve itself. Think about the e shaft pellet, it is at the end of the e-shaft and it decreases the pressure in all of the line before it.
Last edited by ayrton012; 10-27-2009 at 06:34 AM. Reason: language
10-27-2009, 06:17 AM
#395
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10-27-2009, 06:28 AM
#396
Ayrton Senna Forever
The working oil temperature differences can't make such a 20 PSI difference (71 vs 90 PSI). It is more than the bypass (regulator) valve's regulating tolerance by thicker-thinner warm oil.
10-27-2009, 06:32 AM
#397
Ayrton Senna Forever
There is only a very little difference for decreasing leaking of the gases.
10-27-2009, 06:59 AM
#398
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10-27-2009, 07:30 AM
#399
Just took my break in filter off (1K miles with 15w/40 diesel oil)--had a filter mag on it. I cut the filter apart and the magnet Works!! Collection of fine grit particles attached to the side of the can just like in their pictures they posted. No doubt-- I am sold.
Sorry for thread jack---but when i do the op mod i am also inserting a magnet in the pan.
OD
Paul.
10-27-2009, 07:46 AM
#400