Notices
Series I Tech Garage The place to discuss anything technical about the RX-8 that doesn't fit into any of the categories below.

Renesis OIL PRESSURE Discussion with Dealer Tech

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Rate Thread
 
Old 10-26-2009 | 08:10 AM
  #376  
TeamRX8's Avatar
Registered
iTrader: (25)
 
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 26,866
Likes: 2,083
Originally Posted by ASH8
Proves you have NOTHING to Offer or Participate with..no facts on this matter..

Very easy to throw ****/Crap with no ramblings to back it up..

You have everything to contribute, but are simply flat out wrong. What have you ever accomplished of value regarding a Renesis engine? WTF are you but some guy who rambles excessively on teh intrawebz?

Saying nothing and knowing nothing aren't the same thing. In some circles nothing has a value. In those same circles it's also nothing to talk publicly about. There's nothing in it for me to save you from yourselves. Nothing is as it seems.
Old 10-26-2009 | 09:28 AM
  #377  
olddragger's Avatar
Registered
iTrader: (3)
 
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 10,828
Likes: 38
From: macon, georgia
So why did you post if there is nothing in it for you? I dont understand?

If this is "wrong" and "fiction" then can you provide some insight into why this is not correct?
Facts:
1- clearances have not changed over the years (bearings/eshaft)
2- oil pressures and lubrication design for the 09's were changed. (Mazda doesnt do these things without a reason)
3- there is bearing wear on the s1 Renasis. Daily driver cars.
4- the oil pressures on the renasis are in the range of the earier model rotary's except for the twin oil cooled turbo model which had a different lubrication set up and those engine had over 100psi present
5- the s1 renasis has another 1K rpm range to demand lubrication for and a different type of heat issues
Now these are facts easily backed up. Whether are not changing the oil pressure on the s1 renasis will help the engine remains to be seen, BUT it damn sure looks lodgical to me and it will not hurt anything.
So Team, if you know something, share it.
Olddragger
Old 10-26-2009 | 05:06 PM
  #378  
ASH8's Avatar
Thread Starter
Super Moderator
 
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,869
Likes: 327
From: Australia
Originally Posted by PhillipM
*Gives his 5w-30 Silkolene a big hug for giving him no bearing wear even in competition use*

And 90psi of oil pressure...
Phillip..
Where are you reading the 90 PSI from?, can't recall if you said it before?
Have you done any "spring" mods...
Mazda Specs say RENESIS 1 is 64-71 PSI at OIL PUMP!!.
Old 10-26-2009 | 05:18 PM
  #379  
ASH8's Avatar
Thread Starter
Super Moderator
 
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,869
Likes: 327
From: Australia
Originally Posted by TeamRX8
You have everything to contribute, but are simply flat out wrong. What have you ever accomplished of value regarding a Renesis engine? WTF are you but some guy who rambles excessively on teh intrawebz?

Saying nothing and knowing nothing aren't the same thing. In some circles nothing has a value. In those same circles it's also nothing to talk publicly about. There's nothing in it for me to save you from yourselves. Nothing is as it seems.
Mate...you are a DICK HEAD...HOW WEAK MINDED ARE YOU, that is a comeback...WEAK..

You say "I am Flat out Wrong" with NO evidence to BACK YOU UP....WEAK..

This proved it to me when you said....'Mazda changed Parts without changing Part Numbers'.. that you know absolutely NOTHING.

I have presented Mazda factory printed/made evidence, YOU HAVE PRESENTED NOTHING!!!..

Except cheap comebacks with NO SUBSTANCE..

So I say to you **** OFF from MY Thread....if you do not like what you read..
Old 10-26-2009 | 05:43 PM
  #380  
Charles R. Hill's Avatar
Owner of BHR
iTrader: (7)
 
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 4,101
Likes: 45
Since I have no time to read all 19 pages may I ask a few questions here, ASH?

Last edited by Charles R. Hill; 10-26-2009 at 06:03 PM.
Old 10-26-2009 | 05:59 PM
  #381  
PhillipM's Avatar
Registered
 
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 863
Likes: 0
From: UK
Originally Posted by ASH8
Phillip..
Where are you reading the 90 PSI from?, can't recall if you said it before?
Have you done any "spring" mods...
Mazda Specs say RENESIS 1 is 64-71 PSI at OIL PUMP!!.
That's at the outlet below the oil filter.
Old 10-26-2009 | 06:24 PM
  #382  
madcows's Avatar
Registered User
 
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 239
Likes: 0
From: michigan
Originally Posted by TeamRX8
You have everything to contribute, but are simply flat out wrong. What have you ever accomplished of value regarding a Renesis engine? WTF are you but some guy who rambles excessively on teh intrawebz?

Saying nothing and knowing nothing aren't the same thing. In some circles nothing has a value. In those same circles it's also nothing to talk publicly about. There's nothing in it for me to save you from yourselves. Nothing is as it seems.

I am surprised that someone with over 8,500 posts and potentially lot of good info discredits other people's findings with sometimes nothing more than a 1-liner, while providing nothing in the way of evidence to support what he says.

Seriously Team, why even bother then? You have apparently been a member of the community for quite some time, and I doubt you have made it to this point with constantly just writing posts like this. I'm sure many of us on here would like to hear a disagreement, but we certainly need to hear you stating something that backs your position.
Old 10-26-2009 | 06:31 PM
  #383  
madcows's Avatar
Registered User
 
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 239
Likes: 0
From: michigan
Originally Posted by PhillipM
That's at the outlet below the oil filter.

Have you modded the pressure regulators? If so, which ones?


Here's one more thing we can consider: Is it possible that these OP regulators can only flow so much oil at a given pressure? Lets just say that one of them is supposed to bleed off any oil over 70psi. It may be possible that at 70psi it can only flow so much oil, therefore increasing the pressure in the system still to something higher like lets say 80 psi - and so on, and so forth. So, perhaps even though a stock regulator is made to bypass oil at a certain PSI, it doesn't necessarily cut it off - especially if you're using a higher viscosity oil. In these situations, what it would really be doing is tapering off the flow rate... Hmmmm..
Old 10-26-2009 | 07:43 PM
  #384  
PhillipM's Avatar
Registered
 
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 863
Likes: 0
From: UK
There's always a tapering at the flow rate - there's a loss from flow through the orifice which creates a pressure build up in itself, albeit fairly low in gain.

That's without any modifications, I didn't have time to pull the sump - as it was I ended up sleeping in the car overnight on the way to the event....
Old 10-26-2009 | 09:49 PM
  #385  
olddragger's Avatar
Registered
iTrader: (3)
 
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 10,828
Likes: 38
From: macon, georgia
been there done that! Slept in the car I mean

no one in Ga has seen 90psi even with 20/50 oil. So I am curious also.

JUST DISCOVERED SOMETHING-------------
something I used to know for sure but forgot---Rick E (mazmart) does oil pressure regulator mods on the renasis engine as an option when a rebuild is requested. How about that!
Seems like this is not a "new" discovery, but as knowledge of this engine grows the more we will be able to do to help it out.
Mazdatrix sells the 93-85 rear regulator for $31.00 hell they even have the mazdaspeed adjustable one and 2 skims for the front offered at as a package for $99.
Christmas is not far off guys!
OD.
Old 10-26-2009 | 09:55 PM
  #386  
9krpmrx8's Avatar
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
 
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 33,786
Likes: 455
From: San Antonio, Texas
OD, do a DIY!
Old 10-26-2009 | 09:59 PM
  #387  
ASH8's Avatar
Thread Starter
Super Moderator
 
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,869
Likes: 327
From: Australia
What Mazda's Factory Part Manuals Says...

In the Interest of showing all those who think I am TOTALLY WRONG...here is a scenario...

A 2004-2008 MY RX-8 Owner walks into a US or Australian Or UK Or Europe Mazda Dealer Spare Parts Department and Buys the Following for his RX-8...

2 x N326-14-140 Oil Pump Rotors..
1 x N326-14-151 Oil Pump Chain
1 x B6Y1-14-3029A Oil Filter
2 x 0820-10-502B Stationary Gear Bearings 4 Port, (NF01-10-E04 6 Port RENESIS)
2 x N3A2-11-B11 Rotor Bearings
1 x 0839-14-115 Oil Pump Pressure Control PISTON/Plunger
1 x N3H1-14-237 Oil Pump Pressure Control SPRING
1 x 0839-14-274 Oil Pump Pressure Control Nut/Bleeder
1 x 3648-14-250 Rear Oil Pressure By-Pass Assembly.
(Internal Parts 1 x 0221-14-115 Piston and 1 x 0221-14-116 Spring)

************************************************** *************

A 1985-1989 MY FC RX-7 Owner walks into a US or Australian Or UK Or Europe Mazda Dealer Spare Parts Department and Buys the Following for his RX-7...

2 x N326-14-140 Oil Pump Rotors..
2 x N318-14-140 Oil Pump Rotors (Turbo)
1 x N326-14-151 Oil Pump Chain
1 x B6Y1-14-3029A Oil Filter
2 x 0820-10-502B Stationary Gear Bearings
2 x 1011-11-111 Rotor Bearings
1 x 0839-14-115 Oil Pump Pressure Control PISTON/Plunger
1 x 0839-14-273A Oil Pump Pressure Control SPRING
1 x 0839-14-274 Oil Pump Pressure Control Nut/Bleeder
1 x 3648-14-250 Rear Oil Pressure By-Pass Assembly.
(Internal Parts 1 x 0221-14-115 Piston and 1 x 0221-14-116 Spring)

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++

A 1992~ MY FD RX-7 Owner walks into a US or Australian Or UK Or Europe Mazda Dealer Spare Parts Department and Buys the Following for his RX-7...

2 x N318-14-140 Oil Pump Rotors
1 x N326-14-151 Oil Pump Chain
1 x B6Y1-14-3029A Oil Filter
2 x NF01-10-E04 Stationary Gear Bearings
2 x N3A2-11-B11 Rotor Bearings
1 x 0839-14-115 Oil Pump Pressure Control PISTON/Plunger
1 x N3A1-14-273A Oil Pump Pressure Control SPRING
1 x 0839-14-274 Oil Pump Pressure Control Nut/Bleeder
1 x N3A1-14-230 Rear Oil Pressure By-Pass Assembly.
(Internal Parts 1 x 0221-14-115 Piston and 1 x Spring Not Listed By Part Number)

================================================== =======

Highlighted in BLACK are the Only Parts that are different by Part Number between the Series 1 RX-8 RENESIS and the FC or FD RX-7.

So for me the issue is OIL PRESSURE that is happening in the Rear of Engine, more specifically the REAR BY PASS VALVE.

The 3648-14-250 Used in the S1 RX-8 and ALL FC RX-7's is rated at about the 60-70 PSI Oil By Pass Relief, which is consistent to the Factory manuals and Pineapple Racing who test the original with their Air Pressure Guage (see Video) before and after they Crush the end to shorten spring travel and increase Oil By Pass Pressure this lifts the valve to around the 80 plus PSI mark. As the Guy says you should also spacer out the Front Oil Pump Pressure Control SPRING.

http://www.rebuildingrotaryengines.c..._Oil_Regulator

The Rear BY PASS Valve in the FD is set to by pass oil at 110 PSI according to on line manuals, although it uses the same 0221-14-115 Piston, the Spring IMO has changed (but for some reason Mazda do not list it's part Number) to achieve the higher By Pass Relief, going on memory the unit may be lightly shorter in length too.

The ONLY other Changes related to OIL PRESSURE are the Oil PUMP Rotors Width, the FC Turbo and FD use the same rotors and are 5 mm wider for each set.

And lastly the Front OIL PUMP Pressure Control Springs in ALL 3 Models.

The FC NA and Turbo use the same front spring even though they have different oil pumps.

The FD has a Different Front Spring to the FC even though they share the same Oil Pumps with the FC Turbo.

The S1 RX-8 has it's own Front Spring, but shares the same OIL Pump Rotors as the NA FC RX-7.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++

What to do....

IMO there is no point in improving OIL PUMP Pressure at the Front Spring as the OIL will still By Pass at Rear or Critical supply to engines internals at same or similar PSI Pressure as before the mod. Need to Mod both ends??

You would need to do the Pineapple Racing Crush method for the Rear Valve and Washer out the front Spring...

As I have said before we need a Series I RX-8 owner who is prepared to do the Mods then report on their Oil Pressure Numbers.

I have NO Fear at all about the Engines ability to withstand increases at all as engine internals are the same as the Series II RX-8, and OIL seals front and rear are also the same.

Last edited by ASH8; 10-26-2009 at 10:01 PM.
Old 10-27-2009 | 02:54 AM
  #388  
madcows's Avatar
Registered User
 
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 239
Likes: 0
From: michigan
ASH, thank you for all the great info you have been providing. I'm glad I have become an owner at this recent point in time where there is plenty of great info built up in this forum.
Old 10-27-2009 | 03:20 AM
  #389  
ayrton012's Avatar
Ayrton Senna Forever
 
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 406
Likes: 1
From: Europe
You are not wrong Ash, I'm sure we are on the way to solve the bearing wear problem, but one more thing I don't understand.

Originally Posted by ASH8
To put it more simply....for S1 RX-8's...

1. Oil is Sucked up by Oil Pump via Strainer/Pick up in Sump Pan.
2. Goes through Oil Pump, Control Valve sets pressure to 156 PSI, Excess Oil gravitates back to sump pan.
3. Then through Oil Cooler Feed lines at about 156 PSI, out of Oil Coolers "Cooled"
4. Then to Banjo Fitting at bottom of Rear Iron Housing
5. Rear BY Pass Regulator Cut's Pressure Down to 70-80 PSI, Excess Oil gravitates back to sump pan.
6. Then up through Oil Filter (where oil is filtered)
7. Then into Rear of Eccentric Shaft to Front and 2 Rotor Oil Jets, same lower pressure oil feeds supply to MOP

That is the OIL Journey under TWO OIL Pressure Zones.
So there is two stages in the oil line:
first: pump-coolers (or bypass under 90C)-rear valve (156PSI???),
second: filter-engine (71 PSI)

Actually this two stages means one oiling pipe.

I can't imagine how could be two different pressured stages in one line? I think the max pressure will always be determined by the lower pressure valve (71 PSI).
Old 10-27-2009 | 03:36 AM
  #390  
ayrton012's Avatar
Ayrton Senna Forever
 
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 406
Likes: 1
From: Europe
Originally Posted by olddragger
Glad to see you are hanging around Team--whats your thoughts on this?

This may be a wack thought--but i do wonder if some of the side weal issues we see can be traced to irregular bearing wear that cause a slight off balance condition? If a "system is in tolerance" and one tolerance changes --it affects it all? I may be way out in left field on that.

Also something that hasnt been mentioned in a little while--dont forget we have 1K more rpm to deal with that the earlier models. It would stand to reason that oil flow parameters would have to be adjusted for that?
Why didnt they use the FD pump on this car? Same reason they insisted on a 5W/20 oil i guess---dumb ***? Would loose a little power and it would affect gas mileage JUST a little?
OD.
OD
I think the same. The Renesis has a little wider rotors than earlier, and it has more rpm. Maybe the bearing wear and the low oil pressure (high rpm) causes e-shaft vibration or something balancing problem....i don't know.
Old 10-27-2009 | 04:55 AM
  #391  
ASH8's Avatar
Thread Starter
Super Moderator
 
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,869
Likes: 327
From: Australia
Originally Posted by ayrton012
You are not wrong Ash, I'm sure we are on the way to solve the bearing wear problem, but one more thing I don't understand.



So there is two stages in the oil line:
first: pump-coolers (or bypass under 90C)-rear valve (156PSI???),
second: filter-engine (71 PSI)

Actually this two stages means one oiling pipe.

I can't imagine how could be two different pressured stages in one line? I think the max pressure will always be determined by the lower pressure valve (71 PSI).
AGAIN...

Oil and Pressure Comes from OIL PUMP...Right..

It is said in Manuals for both the FC, FD and Series II RX-8 that Oil Pressure out of the Pump is around/about 156 PSI, Mazda says the S1 RX-8 is 64-71 PSI, I believe this is an error and they are talking REAR BY PASS.

So the "Higher" pressure OIL from Pump goes outside of engine in an Oil Line to Oil Coolers and the returns from oil coolers in another separate external line and ends up just below your Oil Filter where it 'Bolts' onto Rear Housing, it then is BY Passed by this rear valve DOWN to 60-80 PSI (depending on oil temps and the OP Guages used), the Lower pressured oil then goes into OIL FILTER and then Into Engine through the Eccentric Shaft...then out to the front of E-shaft by Heat Pellet, back into sump pan to start journey all over again.

The Engines Oil Pressure from Oil Pump goes from High to Lower, Not the Other way around, Oil is Bled from the Two Valves (front and rear) into sump pan and from two locations on the e-shaft (Front and Middle which goes through Iron housings into sump pan).

There is also a low pressure oil line gallery from rear going through top left of engine (along where the 'Mazda 13B' is stamped on the rotor housings) through ALL housings to front iron housing which feeds the Metering Oil Pump and or Turbo if Fitted..

Go Back and LOOK at the Rotary Oil Flow Diagram I posted, either in this thread or the other one.

Last edited by ASH8; 10-27-2009 at 05:08 AM.
Old 10-27-2009 | 04:59 AM
  #392  
ASH8's Avatar
Thread Starter
Super Moderator
 
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,869
Likes: 327
From: Australia
BTW, I am trying to think who's RX-8 engine had a low pressure Oil Leak between the Rotor Housing and front iron dowell O ring ( there was a You-Tube Vid on it) , anyway Charles R Hill did the superb rebuild.
Old 10-27-2009 | 05:03 AM
  #393  
ASH8's Avatar
Thread Starter
Super Moderator
 
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 10,869
Likes: 327
From: Australia
Originally Posted by ayrton012
I think the same. The Renesis has a little wider rotors than earlier, and it has more rpm. Maybe the bearing wear and the low oil pressure (high rpm) causes e-shaft vibration or something balancing problem....i don't know.
???, sorry mate, but the RENESIS does not have "wider" rotors than earlier, don't know where you got that one from..but, I agree I believe the Low Oil Pressure and Higher RPM just may be the main issue.
Old 10-27-2009 | 05:53 AM
  #394  
ayrton012's Avatar
Ayrton Senna Forever
 
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 406
Likes: 1
From: Europe
Originally Posted by ASH8
AGAIN...

Go Back and LOOK at the Rotary Oil Flow Diagram I posted, either in this thread or the other one.
I made a very simple drawing. I think that the rear valve decrease the pressure in the line before the valve itself. Think about the e shaft pellet, it is at the end of the e-shaft and it decreases the pressure in all of the line before it.
Attached Thumbnails Renesis OIL PRESSURE Discussion with Dealer Tech-oil-system.jpg  

Last edited by ayrton012; 10-27-2009 at 06:34 AM. Reason: language
Old 10-27-2009 | 06:17 AM
  #395  
PhillipM's Avatar
Registered
 
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 863
Likes: 0
From: UK
Originally Posted by olddragger
been there done that! Slept in the car I mean

no one in Ga has seen 90psi even with 20/50 oil. So I am curious also.
How cool are they running their oil though? Huge oil cooler + fans on our car....
Old 10-27-2009 | 06:28 AM
  #396  
ayrton012's Avatar
Ayrton Senna Forever
 
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 406
Likes: 1
From: Europe
Originally Posted by PhillipM
How cool are they running their oil though? Huge oil cooler + fans on our car....
The working oil temperature differences can't make such a 20 PSI difference (71 vs 90 PSI). It is more than the bypass (regulator) valve's regulating tolerance by thicker-thinner warm oil.
Old 10-27-2009 | 06:32 AM
  #397  
ayrton012's Avatar
Ayrton Senna Forever
 
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 406
Likes: 1
From: Europe
Originally Posted by ASH8
???, sorry mate, but the RENESIS does not have "wider" rotors than earlier, don't know where you got that one from..but, I agree I believe the Low Oil Pressure and Higher RPM just may be the main issue.
RG has a long thread (about two years ago) about the differences between the NA FC and the Renesis.
There is only a very little difference for decreasing leaking of the gases.
Old 10-27-2009 | 06:59 AM
  #398  
PhillipM's Avatar
Registered
 
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 863
Likes: 0
From: UK
Originally Posted by ayrton012
The working oil temperature differences can't make such a 20 PSI difference (71 vs 90 PSI). It is more than the bypass (regulator) valve's regulating tolerance by thicker-thinner warm oil.


It a pair of Stack gauges and they were only calibrated 8 months back, so...
Old 10-27-2009 | 07:30 AM
  #399  
Mazmart's Avatar
Registered
iTrader: (12)
 
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,793
Likes: 63
Originally Posted by olddragger


Just took my break in filter off (1K miles with 15w/40 diesel oil)--had a filter mag on it. I cut the filter apart and the magnet Works!! Collection of fine grit particles attached to the side of the can just like in their pictures they posted. No doubt-- I am sold.
Sorry for thread jack---but when i do the op mod i am also inserting a magnet in the pan.
OD
Please do not perform any mods to your engine prior to us speaking on the topic.

Paul.
Old 10-27-2009 | 07:46 AM
  #400  
Mazmart's Avatar
Registered
iTrader: (12)
 
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,793
Likes: 63
Originally Posted by ASH8
The FC's spring is said to be 73 mm long, I wish I knew the RX-8 one and it's length to compare.
If you'd like I can check it for you sir.

Paul.


You have already rated this thread Rating: Thread Rating: 1 votes, 5.00 average.

Quick Reply: Renesis OIL PRESSURE Discussion with Dealer Tech



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:52 PM.