Renesis OIL PRESSURE Discussion with Dealer Tech
10-27-2009, 10:11 AM
#403
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The only thing I'm not keen on with Filtermags is that a lot of the better quality oils are using slightly magnetic dry-lubricant films, to get them to 'stick' to the engine internals and provide more protection on startup - depending on the particle size, there is a slight possibility of the FilterMag pulling it out of suspension.
10-27-2009, 02:23 PM
#404
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Was there ever a consensus? There are 17 pages of speculating and winnowing the good info out just doesn't seem to be working for me today.
I remember my 90 RX7s (NA and T2) called for different oils between certain temp ranges, but 10w40 and 20w50 were almost universal.
Personally, I use 15W40 diesel oil in my '88 T2 engine, but it's got less than 5k miles on it so I have no idea of the wear. It's pretty heavily modded so I can't say how the thicker oil increases pressure or reduces MPG. It has a bypass pellet in the eshaft.
Here's a thought - Racing beat offers a racing oil pres. regulator for rotaries. It consists of a new rear regulator and a couple of shim washers for the front regulator. On a S4/S5 NA motor, 90 PSI. The thing was cheap and easy too - drop oil pan and install it.
I wonder why Mazda didn't use the FD e-shaft bearings. I've used those in building uprated FC engines. It's not like they're any more expensive than the earlier ones.
Last data point - I use an oil filter for a 72 RX2 on pretty much everything rotary. They're huge, Fram # 2849. I use a Purolator version of same, can't remember the # off the top of my head.
I remember my 90 RX7s (NA and T2) called for different oils between certain temp ranges, but 10w40 and 20w50 were almost universal.
Personally, I use 15W40 diesel oil in my '88 T2 engine, but it's got less than 5k miles on it so I have no idea of the wear. It's pretty heavily modded so I can't say how the thicker oil increases pressure or reduces MPG. It has a bypass pellet in the eshaft.
Here's a thought - Racing beat offers a racing oil pres. regulator for rotaries. It consists of a new rear regulator and a couple of shim washers for the front regulator. On a S4/S5 NA motor, 90 PSI. The thing was cheap and easy too - drop oil pan and install it.
I wonder why Mazda didn't use the FD e-shaft bearings. I've used those in building uprated FC engines. It's not like they're any more expensive than the earlier ones.
Last data point - I use an oil filter for a 72 RX2 on pretty much everything rotary. They're huge, Fram # 2849. I use a Purolator version of same, can't remember the # off the top of my head.
10-27-2009, 03:17 PM
#405
As Renkat stated, the front is for the purpose of protecting coolers and hoses, whereas the rear regulates system pressure. That spring being altered on Mazdas part is not a culprit here with bearing wear.
When we increase the pressure by changing the rear regulator we modify that front spring as well.
Paul.
When we increase the pressure by changing the rear regulator we modify that front spring as well.
Paul.
10-27-2009, 10:45 PM
#409
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It was the 4 port (used in early RX-8 Automatics and some UK sticks), that had the FC Bearings, 0820-10-502B, also used in the R100, RX-2,3,4,5 12A 7, NA FC)
And yes the FD or 'High Power' Bearings are being used in the US Re-man 4 port Auto's.
10-27-2009, 10:50 PM
#410
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Thread Starter
As Renkat stated, the front is for the purpose of protecting coolers and hoses, whereas the rear regulates system pressure. That spring being altered on Mazdas part is not a culprit here with bearing wear.
When we increase the pressure by changing the rear regulator we modify that front spring as well.
Paul.
When we increase the pressure by changing the rear regulator we modify that front spring as well.
Paul.
It appears the Mod increases oil pressure by about 20-25 PSI, has to be a good move.
The 09's don't have the rear valve any longer.
10-27-2009, 10:53 PM
#411
Since a consensus still seems to be a fair time off, I'm waiting for more information. Ideally, I'm hoping this is something that can be fixed without having to pull the front cover from the engine; but if not, then I'll put it on my to-do list for the eventual rebuild.
Either way, sincere thanks for those who have posted already and are still working at getting to the bottom of this issue.
Either way, sincere thanks for those who have posted already and are still working at getting to the bottom of this issue.
10-27-2009, 11:03 PM
#412
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Thread Starter
Since a consensus still seems to be a fair time off, I'm waiting for more information. Ideally, I'm hoping this is something that can be fixed without having to pull the front cover from the engine; but if not, then I'll put it on my to-do list for the eventual rebuild.
Either way, sincere thanks for those who have posted already and are still working at getting to the bottom of this issue.
Either way, sincere thanks for those who have posted already and are still working at getting to the bottom of this issue.
I would like to think any concerned RX-8 owner or enthusiast could get this Mod done, why wait until an engine rebuild?
But yes, this Mod is nothing new, what is "new" is this bearing wear for any rotary at low mileage, one thing I don't understand is why Mazda US are not modding their re-man engines to improve OP.
10-28-2009, 08:49 AM
#413
I wonder if the internal part of the 09 sump (oil pan in the states mate!) design has changed?
Any more baffles, oil screen change or deeper pickup area to handle the increased flow?
Just asking all the questions I can before actually doing this mod.
OD
Any more baffles, oil screen change or deeper pickup area to handle the increased flow?
Just asking all the questions I can before actually doing this mod.
OD
10-28-2009, 03:54 PM
#414
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Thread Starter
Not sure on the Oil pick up as is it different Part Number and Slightly different looking for new oil pump design.?
Last edited by ASH8; 10-28-2009 at 03:56 PM.
10-28-2009, 06:37 PM
#418
Isn't it too much though? as stated in the other thread we may want to find a compromise between your 5w20 (which is like ****, we use 5w30 at least) and extreme grades. I use a 10w40 and Rome never goes below -2\-3°C. My box usually sees temps around 15°C.
I'm just making it a bit more practical than theoretical. What do you think?
I'm just making it a bit more practical than theoretical. What do you think?
10-28-2009, 06:56 PM
#419
Isn't it too much though? as stated in the other thread we may want to find a compromise between your 5w20 (which is like ****, we use 5w30 at least) and extreme grades. I use a 10w40 and Rome never goes below -2\-3°C. My box usually sees temps around 15°C.
I'm just making it a bit more practical than theoretical. What do you think?
I'm just making it a bit more practical than theoretical. What do you think?
it did hit like 16 or 15f last year. Thats the coldest outside temp In NYC. so that means 20w50 will be good for me "all year long"
and there is no doubt that w50 will protect parts better at operating temperature than, say, w20 oil.
I dont really see the point of arguing which oil is better, just use it for certain amount of miles, open the engine up. see who is the winner.
so far we have been seeing "bad" results from 5w20 and 5w30, and it came from person who probably build more engines in a month than our whole life will ever be.
Some has pointed that 13b-msp has highest rpm in the whole 13B/12A family. I mean, Oh yes I know that. I have a FC remember?
but seriously speaking, most people will not keep their engines running at 8K+ for extended period of time for no reason. so that means most engine spend "most of its life" running below 8K mark. which is the same as my FC. FC engines never got the same wear as FE(at least not 50K miles!)no one did 20w50 all the way on this engine yet. Im doing that right now, but results wont be in for "quite a while", and I have a Reman engine so god knows what part has been re-use which one is brand new. Barrrrhhh I dont care, I just gonna do it.
Last edited by nycgps; 10-28-2009 at 07:05 PM.
10-28-2009, 07:04 PM
#421
That's a good point nycgps but i still think that the higher viscosity might cause some reduced flow issues, at least when too cold. That's why i'm sticking with the 10w40. In the end it is not too thin compared to a 20w50 when hot.
Wonder how the OMP takes these heavy oils though... that's not a problem for me since i do premix
EDIT:
Anyway our manuals contains a diagram for temperatures\oil weights... at least here in Europe!
Re-edit:
I checked my manual and it states the different oil grades to use in certain temperatures ranges. You manual (usa\canada) has got a similar chart for different temperatures but only says 5w20 (section 8, page 9). Since ours says that we can use different viscosities i don't think that oil pressure should be affected too much.
If you want i can snap a pic and post it both here and in the other oil thread.
Wonder how the OMP takes these heavy oils though... that's not a problem for me since i do premix
EDIT:
Anyway our manuals contains a diagram for temperatures\oil weights... at least here in Europe!
Re-edit:
I checked my manual and it states the different oil grades to use in certain temperatures ranges. You manual (usa\canada) has got a similar chart for different temperatures but only says 5w20 (section 8, page 9). Since ours says that we can use different viscosities i don't think that oil pressure should be affected too much.
If you want i can snap a pic and post it both here and in the other oil thread.
Last edited by bse50; 10-28-2009 at 07:38 PM.
10-28-2009, 07:43 PM
#422
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It doesn't need to freeze, it'll flow like molasses at that temperature anyway, what it can flow at, and what it's useful at, are two seperate things.
10-28-2009, 08:07 PM
#423
That's a good point nycgps but i still think that the higher viscosity might cause some reduced flow issues, at least when too cold. That's why i'm sticking with the 10w40. In the end it is not too thin compared to a 20w50 when hot.
Wonder how the OMP takes these heavy oils though... that's not a problem for me since i do premix
EDIT:
Anyway our manuals contains a diagram for temperatures\oil weights... at least here in Europe!
Re-edit:
I checked my manual and it states the different oil grades to use in certain temperatures ranges. You manual (usa\canada) has got a similar chart for different temperatures but only says 5w20 (section 8, page 9). Since ours says that we can use different viscosities i don't think that oil pressure should be affected too much.
If you want i can snap a pic and post it both here and in the other oil thread.
Wonder how the OMP takes these heavy oils though... that's not a problem for me since i do premix
EDIT:
Anyway our manuals contains a diagram for temperatures\oil weights... at least here in Europe!
Re-edit:
I checked my manual and it states the different oil grades to use in certain temperatures ranges. You manual (usa\canada) has got a similar chart for different temperatures but only says 5w20 (section 8, page 9). Since ours says that we can use different viscosities i don't think that oil pressure should be affected too much.
If you want i can snap a pic and post it both here and in the other oil thread.
What I meant was that, a good synthetic oil will still flow ok even at bloody cold temperature like 15f. so its ok to use them.
I actually put a bottle of new 20w50 RP into my freezer the other day, my mom thought I was crazy, then I pour it, it still pours fine, just a bit slower than usual.
10-28-2009, 08:27 PM
#424
lets dont turn this into a oil thread .....God forbid.
Ash appreciate the international cooperation mate Asking about the "oil pan" because I am wondering about possible oil pump cavitation issues-- if that is a possibility. If the pan is interchangeable that would be cool. I will ask my parts man to do some research also and a good Mazda buddy mechanic to look at it.
Paul I am thinking since I have upped my power output a good bit --I may want a little more pressure, especially at cruise, and on the track. Not much i can do about the idle pressure except upping the viscosity as I have done.
Now what oil filter would we use--the 09 one--right?
OD
Ash appreciate the international cooperation mate
Asking about the "oil pan" because I am wondering about possible oil pump cavitation issues-- if that is a possibility. If the pan is interchangeable that would be cool. I will ask my parts man to do some research also and a good Mazda buddy mechanic to look at it.Paul I am thinking since I have upped my power output a good bit --I may want a little more pressure, especially at cruise, and on the track. Not much i can do about the idle pressure except upping the viscosity as I have done.
Now what oil filter would we use--the 09 one--right?
OD
10-28-2009, 09:32 PM
#425
From looking at my 09 (different Sump pan) I am sure you can remove your Sump pan freely and Mod these Valves, you just need you car up high enough to work on.
I would like to think any concerned RX-8 owner or enthusiast could get this Mod done, why wait until an engine rebuild?
But yes, this Mod is nothing new, what is "new" is this bearing wear for any rotary at low mileage, one thing I don't understand is why Mazda US are not modding their re-man engines to improve OP.
I would like to think any concerned RX-8 owner or enthusiast could get this Mod done, why wait until an engine rebuild?
But yes, this Mod is nothing new, what is "new" is this bearing wear for any rotary at low mileage, one thing I don't understand is why Mazda US are not modding their re-man engines to improve OP.
- the OEM regulator can be crushed as Pineapple Racing does (I don't have a hydraulic press or anything similar so that's pretty much a non-starter for me)
- A Street High Performance regulator such as Racing Beat offers can be used (http://www.racingbeat.com/resultset.asp?PartNumber=11810)
- or a "racing" regulator can be used (http://www.racingbeat.com/resultset.asp?PartNumber=11812)
If I understand correctly, the "racing" regulator would give a high RPM pressure level similar to the S2 RX-8, providing that the front regulator was shimmed accordingly and the Street High Performance regulator would still be a little low. Is that right, or did I manage to confuse myself?
I don't have the benefit of a garage so I'm forced to do the work exposed to whatever the weather happens to be when I'm working on it, so I'm hoping to get this sorted out, parts ordered and time set aside before Winter sets in, in earnest (working on a car while lying in snow is not my idea of fun).
Last edited by longpath; 10-28-2009 at 09:35 PM.