9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

If you ask him a direct question he will typically answer it if he believes you are genuine in wanting an answer. Sure he doesn't make it easy but I get where he is coming from most of the time. There are a couple of people I trust for honest, no BS, feed back and he is one of them. I may not like his answers at times but they are thought out and honest.

1.3_LittersOfFurry

iTrader: (4)

Oh defiantly, I even had a few good conversations with him. And if you search a lot oh here you can find post with tons of info from him. I don't tend to take things personal, especially on a car forum of all things, but some do. Even me and you have had our differences, but I never took it personal. I know you know your stuff, but it doesn't mean you can never be wrong (or whoever). I just think the name calling (or belittling) is kind of childish. We are all here to learn and share ideas.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

What's childish is that you take it that way. If it makes you feel any better it is no different than I treat myself. I have made all these same retarded types of mistakes in my past, this is how I know how stupid they actually are.

1.3_LittersOfFurry

iTrader: (4)

Well I do not take it personal team, I always figured its you being you. And I would be surprised if you acted any different in person. I mean come on I even replied with "Waiting for an awesome reply Team " and honestly you kinda disappointed me when you came back with a decent reply lol.

But, and I mentioned this before, it's more about the way you reply (in my opinion). Sarcasm is not always the easiest thing to read, it is really hard sometimes for me to determine if your being serious or a smart one.

In your post #56, you did make a lot of good points and I admitted to not knowing all the answers. **** at one point you almost convinced me to stop all that and buy the damn AP. But first I want proof that I am harming "my" engine. And I did think about the negative effects (or at least the ones I'm aware of), like plug life, which I didn't give much thought to, since I might get 10k miles out of a set before I change them. Cat life? ****, my personal opinion is that's the first thing to rip out, seems like a pretty easy choice for my situation, no emission testing here. Carbon build up, defiantly on my mind, but I seafoam my engine every other oil change (4k miles)(I've done this with all my rotaries and never saw any bad effects). I also premix for extra protection. So I do feel like I have put some thought into this.

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

Before you guys go taking one off your car and dissecting it...I will pull out the one I used as a test bed for modifying and pull the pistons out of it so you can have a look.

1.3_LittersOfFurry

iTrader: (4)

That would be great! Could you also post pics of the inlet side (the side connected to the engine)? I can't find a pic anywhere of it.

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

I'm done work in about 4 hrs.....try to get something up later tonight

1.3_LittersOfFurry

iTrader: (4)

I was actually talking about the oil lines themselves having a check valve.
And I thought the check valves in the oil injectors were to stop oil from coming up the "AIR SUPPLY LINE" and into the intake... I'm going look for those threads again..


-Edit
Here is one

https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tech-garage-22/possible-new-renesis-engine-failure-theory-210194/page2/

The Underdog

iTrader: (2)

Well, yeah. I just wanted to post up a useful tidbit. Didn't want to argue about it. But I guess part of posting stuff on forums is the inevitable requirement to prove beyond doubt that what you're saying is correct.

I don't think I'm wrong about it being solely a metering device and not a pump. I suppose I could be, though. If you're going to take it apart and post pics I suppose we can all have a look and figure it out once and for all.

You have to forgive me. I'm upset. This is my first rotary and I'm still in shock (!) over the amount of time, money, and effort I've spent on this car in the last month. The engine the car came to me with only lasted 30k. I got it at 60, which means the first one only lasted that long too and it all seems to all be down to two faulty oil injectors (which were probably swapped from the first engine right on to the second one by some careless mechanic without being tested). To a non-rotary person, an engine lasting only 30k is appalling.

I look forward to the OMP autopsy.

ASH8

I CAN understand your frustration and being upset.

ANY Rotary can be a money pit if one goes in with eyes only half open, it pays to research thoroughly BEFORE making any investment.

Please ignore those who appear to be short with you, on-line persona's for some are a game, however, in most cases their advice is 100% correct...well 99.9%, you know no one knows all.

Many vintage Rotaries did not get anymore than 30,000 miles between rebuilds.

YES, Mazda has improved reliability immensely, sadly though the S1 Renny was a rush job and a few critical area's were 'overlooked', like Oil Pressure and a Oil Nozzles for the middle of Apex Seals.

But there are some great low cost procedures to help alleviate these shortcomings.

BTW: Officially (Mazda Motor Corporation, Japan), is referred OMP as a MOP, that is Metering Oil Pump....always has been.

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

Here's the first 4....phone pictures resized so not great...but you can see the plungers and the drive gear that is driven from the Eccentric Shaft in the front cover

In the first one you can see the check valves from the outlet

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

Here's the cutaway from the service manual...you can reference the parts in the pictures to the diagram

ASH8

Great info/pics Dan..

The Underdog

iTrader: (2)

Awesome pics Dan. I still don't think it's a pump but never mind that for the moment because I have a question now. In the first picture there are two spring loaded ball check valves. Where did those come out of? I failed to find them in my own autopsy and am now worried that, having not cleaned them or the place where they live, my OMP (MOP?) may not be working properly.

1.3_LittersOfFurry

iTrader: (4)

Okay, If this is the shaft driven by the engine, I can 100% understand it IS a pump. But it must not be "perfect" and some oil can get past it by applying a restriction the the air supple line for the oil injectors creating a vacuum on the output side of the pump. Or maybe the vacuum I'm creating is actually pulling those needles out allowing more oil to pass? I'm not sure about that but YES it IS a PUMP. Thank you for sharing this dannobre!

1.3_LittersOfFurry

iTrader: (4)

Still wondering about that last line... Was this done encase they decided to turbo the car?

The Underdog

iTrader: (2)

See, that's precisely the thing that makes me think it's NOT a pump. A pump (a positive displacement one anyway) has to create a physical empty space of some sort, which sucks in a substance from a supply, close off that empty space now full of some stuff, then move that stuff by closing that space back up while opening a path to the destination.

In this device, some intermediate shaft driven by the eccentric shaft drives that shaft that you have circled, which in turn drives those two cylindrical things at a ratio of what looks to be about 20:1. So, they spin at some proportion to engine speed (slower than). The stepper motor and that rack gear thingey turn that shaft connected to the rack gear which has cam-shaped sections on it. Those cam sections cause a back and forth motion of the cylindrical things, which change their position relative to the needles. The needles are stationary because they are held against the cover plate by those springs.

I judge the back and forth motion of the cylindrical things to be for the purpose of varying the amount of oil that is passed, the way a needle valve works, i.e. a variable sized orifice. This serves to vary the oil supplied according to the ECU's interpretation of engine load. I think the purpose of spinning the cylinders is to open and close a path for oil pressure to pass in direct proportion to RPM. So something like every x number of eccentric shaft revolutions, the holes in the cylinder shaped things line up with the supply and discharge holes in the pump (not?) housing, allowing oil to pass, and injecting a pulse of oil, the size of which depends on what the rack gear and stepper motor have done in relation to the needle valves.

I still don't think this thing actually creates any oil pressure. I think it just passes it along in a very specific way.

Upon reading Dan's manual excerpt about the oil injector nozzles, I think that your hose-restriction deal works as follows: The nozzles have a check valve which closes them off when they are subjected to vacuum (vacuum as seen by the actual injection tip that lives inside the rotor housing). That keeps engine vacuum from pulling oil through the nozzles when it isn't needed. The purpose of the hose arrangement that goes to the intake pipe seems to me like it's just to keep the check valve deal from getting dirt in it (after all, if it's just to supply barometric pressure, they would work fine just being vented to atmosphere. Until they clogged or bugs built nests in them or something.) Since it's hooked to the intake ahead of the throttle body, the only vacuum that hose will ever see is the pressure drop created by the engine sucking against the air-filter element, which is almost nothing compared to it sucking against a mostly closed throttle. So it seems to me that by restricting the air supply to the nozzles, you are slowing their ability to close down when the tip sees combustion chamber vacuum, therefore, they will pass a small bit of oil while air is struggling to get through the restriction in the line that you have created. So, you have increased oil delivery by increasing the amount of time it takes vacuum to close the injector nozzles.

Now I'm puzzled about my "bad" nozzles. I judged that they were bad because they wouldn't hold vacuum and the manual said they were supposed to. Assuming the above is correct and I'm not 180 degrees wrong about the purpose of the check valve, wouldn't my injectors that didn't hold vacuum just allow oil in under vacuum, thus increasing delivery and making my engine last longer? I don't know because I had to return the old engine to get my $1000 core charge back and didn't get to examine the apex seals. I did see the inside of the exhaust ports and manifold, though, and they were tan, just like properly running spark plugs. No sludge or excessive deposits.

Actually it's possible that none of this has anything to do with how my engine failed. I just rememberd the moment it went. I heard a sudden, slight, yet distinct change in the exhaust note. Slightly louder, slightly coarser, like someone flipped a switch and it was never the same again. After that it didn't like to idle, didn't want to start, and sounded like a v-6. I mean yeah, it was way down on compression but maybe there was a separate issue at work like a single failed apex seal. I will never know.

Long enough post? Anyone still awake?

HiFlite999

iTrader: (2)

I remain neutral at this point in the pump vs "valve" debate wrt MOP function. However, if the MOP is indeed the latter, would not a method to increase oil injection at higher rpms be the use of the Mazmart/RB/Rx7 oil bypass mod? Depending on temps and the oil being used, the stock ~70 psi oil pressure limit is reached at around 4000 rpm. In the valve model or even, to a lessor extent, in the leaky-displacement pump view, the increased engine o.p. above ~4k rpm with the mod, should also increase oil injector thruput.

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

Those check valves are in the outlet holes..below a brass screwed cap...with a brass pin holding them in. Don't try and take them out cause the retainer will break in half There are 4 of them ...one in each outlet and I just took out those 2 for the pictures

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

If there is need for pressure then the Sohn adapter wouldn't work at all. The small amount of head pressure that the 6-8" above MOP the tank sits wouldn't be enough to provide oil anything like OEM. Even with the small inlet hole the oil pressure at 9K rpm would be about 90psi...

This is very similar to the 2 stroke injection pumps in an outboard..and they are made by Mikuni as well....

If the plunger is moving back and forth...with the needle stationary.......and the pluger rotating to open and close passages that line up with the outlet....why wouldn't you think that was pumping.....retracting with needle open to inlet.....oil in...closes...plunger extends and opening goes to outlet...oil flows into oulet..through the check valves and into the lines

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

I have increased oil pressure and mine pull Idemitsu from my SOHN reservoir at a very fast rate. I also have increased rates VIA the Cobb as well. I probably burn 1/2 quart or more in 800 miles of normal driving. My reservoir holds about two quarts and I usually add a quart every two oil changes.

HiFlite999

iTrader: (2)

What "high" setting did you use in your table (stock = 60)? Ref https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...&postcount=262

pistonhater

wow, that's significant.

I wonder, would premixing along with OE pump doing a half *** job do the trick for those of us who are not thinking about inspecting/cleaning the lines?

HiFlite999

iTrader: (2)

Good point.

1.3_LittersOfFurry

iTrader: (4)

If there is one thing this forum is good at it's making me spend money... Guess I better start reading how to tune with the AP.. Ya buncha bastards.