Possible MOP oil line cleaning method?
06-02-2012, 11:06 AM
#53
NW Florida TURBO
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Navarre FL, In my boosted 8...
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So dose it actually work? I've had my 05' rx8 for five year running turbo for the last four I don't pre-mix and never had issues, but I would like more oil to be injected for extra insurance and I rather not pre-mix....
06-02-2012, 11:31 AM
#54
Well if you don't want to believe what I post (no offense taken) you could always try it your self and see your own results, and reverse the process if you do not like it. I mean, what's the worse thing that could happen? You burn more oil?
06-02-2012, 11:40 AM
#55
NW Florida TURBO
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Navarre FL, In my boosted 8...
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I understand once I get back home to the good old US Of A I will try it out on my 8, I've been wondering how much if any oil actually is flowing trough the line good way to check/clean it all up, by the way I'll be in new Orleans in two weeks can't wait....wooooowoooo
06-02-2012, 11:58 AM
#56
Earth to space cadets - if the hose is located before the throttle body it is only an air vent or supply connection. It has to be located after the throttle body to be vacuum. That is not a vacuum hose. It is an anti-vacuum air supply hose. 
the problems with doing it the way described in this thread are;
1. You have no idea or control over how much is going in and when
2. Vacuum is high at idle, low engine speed, and deceleration, Vacuum is low at high engine speeds. This is just the opposite of what you want for OMP flow.
this is hillbilly garage engineering at it's finest :facepalm:
.
Operation
• The oil discharging mechanism consists of the plunger and differential plunger driven by the driving worm. The
driving worm is driven by the eccentric shaft through the driven gear.
• The amount of oil discharged is controlled by change in the stroke of the plunger and the rotation of the control
pin attached to the stepping motor according to the signal from the PCM.
• The operation of the stepping motor is monitored by the positioning switch and it ensures the optimum amount
of oil discharge according to the driving condition.
• The oil nozzle receives the barometric pressure from the air hose to prevent the negative pressure from the
engine being applied to the oil inlet. Also, a one-way check valve has been adopted to prevent oil from flowing
out of the air hose side when the engine is under positive pressure.
• The oil discharging mechanism consists of the plunger and differential plunger driven by the driving worm. The
driving worm is driven by the eccentric shaft through the driven gear.
• The amount of oil discharged is controlled by change in the stroke of the plunger and the rotation of the control
pin attached to the stepping motor according to the signal from the PCM.
• The operation of the stepping motor is monitored by the positioning switch and it ensures the optimum amount
of oil discharge according to the driving condition.
• The oil nozzle receives the barometric pressure from the air hose to prevent the negative pressure from the
engine being applied to the oil inlet. Also, a one-way check valve has been adopted to prevent oil from flowing
out of the air hose side when the engine is under positive pressure.
1. You have no idea or control over how much is going in and when
2. Vacuum is high at idle, low engine speed, and deceleration, Vacuum is low at high engine speeds. This is just the opposite of what you want for OMP flow.
this is hillbilly garage engineering at it's finest :facepalm:
.
06-02-2012, 03:28 PM
#57
Ok, in my own defense...
Waiting for a awesome reply Team
Earth to space cadets - if the hose is located before the throttle body it is only an air vent or supply connection. It has to be located after the throttle body to be vacuum. That is not a vacuum hose. It is an anti-vacuum air supply hose.
One end of the hose maybe "before" the throttle body, BUT where is the other end of said hose go? To the oil injectors and then the combustion chamber. Put you finger over the hose while the car is running, what do you have? Vacuum!
the problems with doing it the way described in this thread are;
1. You have no idea or control over how much is going in and when
You can control "how much" to a certain point. By logging your oil consumption you can somewhat adjust it too, by restricting or unrestricting the line to help meet your goal. I haven't figured out yet the "when" part.
2. Vacuum is high at idle, low engine speed, and deceleration, Vacuum is low at high engine speeds. This is just the opposite of what you want for OMP flow.
I agree, to a extent.. I'm not going to sit here and say that I do not want higher oil flow at higher RPMs but, for the DD Rx-8's out there that do majority of their life below 6krpms how would this hurt? As long as you still "get on it" here and there to keep the internals clean I can not see how this would hurt. Not to mention you have a nice coat of oil in the engine already for when you do "get on it". And having the omp line restricted, should have no affect on high rpm (low vacuum) situations, which sucks in a way but also means it's not hurting (decreasing oil flow) it either.
I know you can buy a AP + Tune to do all this, but at $600 and having to deal with MM, I'm good and will continue to mess with the omp system myself.
this is hillbilly garage engineering Coon-*** Ingenuity at it's finest :facepalm:
Fixed that last part for ya.
.
Operation
• The oil discharging mechanism consists of the plunger and differential plunger driven by the driving worm. The
driving worm is driven by the eccentric shaft through the driven gear.
• The amount of oil discharged is controlled by change in the stroke of the plunger and the rotation of the control
pin attached to the stepping motor according to the signal from the PCM.
• The operation of the stepping motor is monitored by the positioning switch and it ensures the optimum amount
of oil discharge according to the driving condition.
• The oil nozzle receives the barometric pressure from the air hose to prevent the negative pressure from the
engine being applied to the oil inlet. Also, a one-way check valve has been adopted to prevent oil from flowing
out of the air hose side when the engine is under positive pressure.
• The oil discharging mechanism consists of the plunger and differential plunger driven by the driving worm. The
driving worm is driven by the eccentric shaft through the driven gear.
• The amount of oil discharged is controlled by change in the stroke of the plunger and the rotation of the control
pin attached to the stepping motor according to the signal from the PCM.
• The operation of the stepping motor is monitored by the positioning switch and it ensures the optimum amount
of oil discharge according to the driving condition.
• The oil nozzle receives the barometric pressure from the air hose to prevent the negative pressure from the
engine being applied to the oil inlet. Also, a one-way check valve has been adopted to prevent oil from flowing
out of the air hose side when the engine is under positive pressure.
One end of the hose maybe "before" the throttle body, BUT where is the other end of said hose go? To the oil injectors and then the combustion chamber. Put you finger over the hose while the car is running, what do you have? Vacuum!
the problems with doing it the way described in this thread are;
1. You have no idea or control over how much is going in and when
You can control "how much" to a certain point. By logging your oil consumption you can somewhat adjust it too, by restricting or unrestricting the line to help meet your goal. I haven't figured out yet the "when" part.
2. Vacuum is high at idle, low engine speed, and deceleration, Vacuum is low at high engine speeds. This is just the opposite of what you want for OMP flow.
I agree, to a extent.. I'm not going to sit here and say that I do not want higher oil flow at higher RPMs but, for the DD Rx-8's out there that do majority of their life below 6krpms how would this hurt? As long as you still "get on it" here and there to keep the internals clean I can not see how this would hurt. Not to mention you have a nice coat of oil in the engine already for when you do "get on it". And having the omp line restricted, should have no affect on high rpm (low vacuum) situations, which sucks in a way but also means it's not hurting (decreasing oil flow) it either.
I know you can buy a AP + Tune to do all this, but at $600 and having to deal with MM, I'm good and will continue to mess with the omp system myself.
this is hillbilly garage engineering Coon-*** Ingenuity at it's finest :facepalm:
Fixed that last part for ya.
.
Waiting for a awesome reply Team
Last edited by 1.3_LittersOfFurry; 06-02-2012 at 03:41 PM.
06-02-2012, 06:14 PM
#58
Pull the hose loose while the engine is running and it sucks air down towards the OMP at a pretty good rate. In the first pic, I disconnected the hose and attached it to my manifold vacuum gauge, also of course, capping the accordian tube inlet. Running the car, the vacuum behaves very much like it does attached to the UIM. The only exception I could find was a slight positive pressure, ~1 psi, WOT, 7-9k rpm in 1st gear. It did not do this in the same range in 2nd and 3rd where the highest pressure seen was about -2 psi.
To verify nothing funny was going on with the connection on the intake, I hooked up the MP gauge as shown in the second pic. Very little difference between the pressure with engine off and on, even at high rpm.
Restricting the diameter of the vacuum hose between the OMP area and the air inlet serves to increase the vacuum seen by whatever part of the OMP system the hose is connected to. I'll leave it to the smart people to explain why this serves to increase the oil injection rate. However, given this experience, plus that of ~50 Germans as data points, I'll take it as a given that it does so, until proven otherwise.
06-03-2012, 04:24 PM
#65
Registered
(Solution of Woorrmser/Germany)
2) My personal solution................ thin copper bar witch thin copper disc with 2 mm hole soldered together, can be hidden in vac. tube, position is secured due to the length of the bar, can be easily removed afterwards..........increasing standard OMP supply with approx. 65%...........
http://s7.directupload.net/images/110419/p226w9dx.jpg
http://s1.directupload.net/images/110419/z4h55g4g.jpg
Last edited by Rudolph; 06-03-2012 at 04:41 PM.
06-03-2012, 07:40 PM
#66
^ Thanks! I did the seafoam thing, then put in a restrictor. Trying a 3 mm hole to see if there's some difference. Lots of ways to do this, but I took a brass hose barb, sanded the hex away to match the ID of the hose, the clamped it in place. Pics below.
06-03-2012, 10:28 PM
#67
apparently you didn't read this, it is an air supply to prevent vacuum from the intake side of the combustion process from pulling excessive amounts of oil through the OMP nozzles. There is no "vacuum" unless you plug or restrict it excessively.
it is a controlled leak with an intended purpose, just like swirl nozzles on the primary intake ports. Why it increases the amount of oil into the engine is obvious if you have any basic understanding of physical principles. It is exactly the opposite way that Mazda designed and intended. What you are doing is not only at the wrong timing of engine events, you also have no way of knowing how much is going in and when as with using the stepper motor function of the Cobb AP. You are only adding oil when vacuum is high, which is when engine load is low. How much and specifically when is anybody's guess. Oil consumption is just some overall average. If you think dumping a bunch of oil in during idle and deceleration when vacuum is highest makes sense then have at it. It will likely foul spark plugs and certainly decrease cat converter life for those who care enough to still have one.
• The oil nozzle receives the barometric pressure from the air hose to prevent the negative pressure from the engine being applied to the oil inlet.
Last edited by TeamRX8; 06-03-2012 at 10:30 PM.
06-03-2012, 10:42 PM
#68
you don't have to deal with MM for anything. If you aren't tuned now then it is no different than running the Stock tune map with an AP, which you can get a used one for around $300. The fact that you can't tune it yourself is just symptomatic of the hillbilly garage science mentality. You are fooling with stuff without any real idea what you are doing. You won't try to tune your own ECU but you will do stuff like this because you have somehow convinced yourself that you can't screw it up ...
06-04-2012, 05:24 AM
#69
apparently you didn't read this, it is an air supply to prevent vacuum from the intake side of the combustion process from pulling excessive amounts of oil through the OMP nozzles. There is no "vacuum" unless you plug or restrict it excessively.
it is a controlled leak with an intended purpose, just like swirl nozzles on the primary intake ports. Why it increases the amount of oil into the engine is obvious if you have any basic understanding of physical principles. It is exactly the opposite way that Mazda designed and intended. What you are doing is not only at the wrong timing of engine events, you also have no way of knowing how much is going in and when as with using the stepper motor function of the Cobb AP. You are only adding oil when vacuum is high, which is when engine load is low. How much and specifically when is anybody's guess. Oil consumption is just some overall average. If you think dumping a bunch of oil in during idle and deceleration when vacuum is highest makes sense then have at it. It will likely foul spark plugs and certainly decrease cat converter life for those who care enough to still have one.
it is a controlled leak with an intended purpose, just like swirl nozzles on the primary intake ports. Why it increases the amount of oil into the engine is obvious if you have any basic understanding of physical principles. It is exactly the opposite way that Mazda designed and intended. What you are doing is not only at the wrong timing of engine events, you also have no way of knowing how much is going in and when as with using the stepper motor function of the Cobb AP. You are only adding oil when vacuum is high, which is when engine load is low. How much and specifically when is anybody's guess. Oil consumption is just some overall average. If you think dumping a bunch of oil in during idle and deceleration when vacuum is highest makes sense then have at it. It will likely foul spark plugs and certainly decrease cat converter life for those who care enough to still have one.
I know the oil consumption is just an "average" but I still rather burn more in "the wrong timing of engine events" than not enough period.
Not concerned at all about plug or cat life since I don't even have a cat and I change my spark plugs yearly.
Your probably unaware of why I been messing with this so much. My compression is low, not low enough to give hot start issues yet, but it's not heathy. This engine will die soon no matter what I do. I feel the engines do not get enough oil, or at least mine does not. I've owned rx7's (3 FC's) all of them burned 1qt per 1kmiles. I've logged many miles in these cars over the course of 6 years never had engine failure, and my last one made it to 230k before I sold it (it sadly died the day I sold it to a friend, he just wouldn't listen to me about taking it easy when the engine is cold, I'm sure you can guess what happened)
When I got this car I was burning 0.5qts per 2kmiles. This is what started everything for me. Then I began reading, and came to my own conclusion that with out premix and increasing oil from the omp (reguardless of how I do it) this engine is pretty much doomed when it leaves the plant.
I'll add more to this later.
___________________
This is at 91k miles on 03/16/11 https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-discussion-3/am-i-getting-ripped-off-dealership-quote-213336/
https://www.rx8club.com/newreply.php...eply&p=4083273 09/21/11
Hey everyone, my warranty expires Saturday. So I decided to do a home compression test. I don't suffer from any of the classic signs, but I just wanted an idea of what shape my engine is in.
My results:
R1: 100, 100, 100 (105 with valve installed) rpms 330
R2: 100, 100, 100 (110) rpms 332
According to the chart I'm below minimum compression for my rpms. Should I call in and try for a new engine? I don't think I will qualify since I have no starting/running issues. I average high 15mpg(mostly stop n go) and can get 22mpg if I'm driving all highway.
Your thoughts?
-Shawn
My results:
R1: 100, 100, 100 (105 with valve installed) rpms 330
R2: 100, 100, 100 (110) rpms 332
According to the chart I'm below minimum compression for my rpms. Should I call in and try for a new engine? I don't think I will qualify since I have no starting/running issues. I average high 15mpg(mostly stop n go) and can get 22mpg if I'm driving all highway.
Your thoughts?
-Shawn
Last edited by 1.3_LittersOfFurry; 06-04-2012 at 01:34 PM.
06-04-2012, 06:16 AM
#70
weeeeeeeeee
iTrader: (12)
Don't know why everyone is questioning this. (May have already been mentioned) Mazda even released a TSB at one point for the exact same line causing an increase in oil consumption.
06-04-2012, 09:52 AM
#72
it is a controlled leak with an intended purpose, just like swirl nozzles on the primary intake ports. Why it increases the amount of oil into the engine is obvious if you have any basic understanding of physical principles. It is exactly the opposite way that Mazda designed and intended.
What you are doing is not only at the wrong timing of engine events, you also have no way of knowing how much is going in and when as with using the stepper motor function of the Cobb AP. You are only adding oil when vacuum is high, which is when engine load is low. How much and specifically when is anybody's guess. Oil consumption is just some overall average. If you think dumping a bunch of oil in during idle and deceleration when vacuum is highest makes sense then have at it. It will likely foul spark plugs and certainly decrease cat converter life for those who care enough to still have one.
Why didn't Mazda do that? My guess is emissions. In gear throttle closed, there's no fuel, cat temp drops, and the extra oil would go through as a HC spike.
My plan is to use a "modest" 3mm dia restrictor, but not use the CW, but about equally unscientific, technique to raise flow rates with the Cobb across the board. I'll leave the low power rates the same and increase them only on the higher end. And yes, I run a cat. $100 and zero problems after 9000 miles including rather heavy duty driving.
YMMV
Last edited by HiFlite999; 06-04-2012 at 09:54 AM.
06-04-2012, 12:09 PM
#73
hm my understanding of how OMP works is that it would inject most oil during the decelerations due to the strong engine vacuum sucking oil out of the oil injectors. on the other hand during the WOT OMP pump is the only thing that pushes oil out of the nozzles and it does so against 1-2 psi of pressure HiFlite999 measured, right?
06-04-2012, 02:47 PM
#74
you don't have to deal with MM for anything. If you aren't tuned now then it is no different than running the Stock tune map with an AP, which you can get a used one for around $300. The fact that you can't tune it yourself is just symptomatic of the hillbilly garage science mentality. You are fooling with stuff without any real idea what you are doing. You won't try to tune your own ECU but you will do stuff like this because you have somehow convinced yourself that you can't screw it up ...
06-04-2012, 03:28 PM
#75
hm my understanding of how OMP works is that it would inject most oil during the decelerations due to the strong engine vacuum sucking oil out of the oil injectors. on the other hand during the WOT OMP pump is the only thing that pushes oil out of the nozzles and it does so against 1-2 psi of pressure HiFlite999 measured, right?
The OMP injects oil....with a positive displacement pump...so the oil will go in because it is basically non-compressible...
The rate of oil flow is determined by how the pump is commanded by the ECU to pump.....and decel is not a time that the ECU says it needs lots of oil
If you are using vac to pull oil out of the lines...it will just cause them to empty...and when the pump is trying to inject more oil when it needs it it will have to fill the lines first before any comes out....this is a BAD idea...DON't do this MOD...it is really stupid You are really sucking oil out when you don't need it...and not getting it properly when you do
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