compaddict

Thanks again Canzoomer for all your work. The whole RotoryNews story smelled like pure bullshit from the start.

Now about that secondary injector...

I've been poking around and it looks like the intake system has to be removed to even get to it. Any observations?

Vince

ChrisW

The compensation was for the reduction from 247 to 238 hp, but the real power is much less than that. Re-flashing it to actually give the 238 hp promissed should be free.

I don't think it would be difficult for them to do this sureptitiously. I'm sure the ECU code has many minor bugs in it (all code does). They could fix some of these at the same time as fixing the fuel maps and then upgrade all the cars at next service - they just portray it as a general bug fix and don't let on that it affects power or fuel economy. And of course all new cars would be shipped with this new code already programmed in at the factory.

The problem is whether Mazda are motivated to put in the effort to develop and test this new code. If the complaints aren't loud enough and the cars continue to sell well then I guess they would not regard this as a profitable use of engineering resources (if it ain't broke don't fix it).

shebam

"The compensation was for the reduction from 247 to 238 hp, but the real power is much less than that. Re-flashing it to actually give the 238 hp promissed should be free."

Maybe the Mazda guy mis-spoke, just as in my "made whole" comment it did not register in my brain that he'd said "238" and not "247" -- since I can't believe he wouldda said that, on or off the record!

Peter Sawko

Mr. Jim O’ Sullivan, President
Mazda North American Operations


Dear Mr. O’ Sullivan,

I’m a new owner of an RX8. I purchased the car based upon information presented to me in Mazda advertising and by a local Mazda dealer. Both sources represented the car as providing 247 horsepower and EPA mileage estimates of 18-24 miles per gallon. After my purchase information was disclosed suggesting that due to emissions modifications horsepower estimates were officially reduced to 238. Performance and mileage estimates, however, remained the same, according to Mazda. Compensation or return of the vehicle were the options offered.

With reluctance and based upon the expected voracity of Mazda’s statement I accepted the compensation offer. There is currently a rapidly increasing amount of technical exploration of the cars horsepower and mileage performance by tuners and others that casts strong doubt on the currently proposed figures of 238 hp and 18-24 mpg. My own documentation supports their contentions. As this information gains wider notoriety I expect that it will damage Mazda’s reputation as well as the resale value of my car well beyond any compensation I will receive from Mazda.

I’m confident you are aware of most of this information. I do not know where it will lead but am fairly sure the issues will not be allowed to die down because many current owners are quite vocal about their dissatisfaction. I believe we are justified in our concern.

In fairness to all of us who purchased your product and to further protect Mazda’s reputation I sincerely hope Mazda will make a strong effort to issue a recall that will fully correct the problems being experienced and return the cars originally stated horsepower and mileage levels. Failing this I for one would be extremely hesitant to purchase or recommend a Mazda product.

Gord96BRG

Well, since I started this whole thread by linking to that article, let me just say that I'm now embarrassed to have bought the explanation. It seemed reasonable, and explained the low power readings on the dyno, and it was even suggested that it could be confirmed with a code reader etc. Now one person has done a whole lot of work to completely disprove that explanation.

I gave Mazda credit for having an engineering explanation that proved they weren't lying about the revised power. Now it seems like they were in fact lying, and came up with a stupid excuse, since this one could be verified! How incredibly disappointing, Mazda.

Canzoomer, I've said it before, but it's worth repeating - you've done a great job with your investigations. I feel I owe you an apology for some of the arguments we had earlier - so, my apologies! Once you decided to keep the car, you really focused and dug for the true story. Thanks for your efforts on our behalf - I'll have to start saving my pennies for your kit!

Regards,
Gordon

shebam

Peter -- I PM'd you. WTF -- finally found your PM and responded.

B-Nez

Canzoomer, one thing folks may want/need to know. If anyone actually manages to wrest a reflash out of MNAO, how would that impact the fuel/ignition modules you are working on? In other words, would the module no longer be applicable to the reflashed ECUs?

bern

Vince:
Interesting thing here is, you trash me for quoting my unamed sources at Mazda, but you say nothing of Canzoomer's secret phone call/discussion to a UNAMED Mazda Engineer, through a friend of a friend, who works at a secondary vendor in the aftermarket. I'm not doubting that Canzoomer is telling the truth, but what's up? Let's be fair. If canzoomer wants, he can PM me the Engineers name and I will verify.. what do you say? What's up with all this "off the record" stuff? NO BS flags for him Vince?


CANZOOMER, the story up at RotaryNews.Com was not by me, but I will accept the critiscm... (BS Flags noted) if you look at the story's author, you will notice this. BTW, the story came directly from the Mazda RX-8 product management and Engineering departments. This same explanation was also re-stated at this year's SevenStock banquet. So, if and when, this all proven wrong, I will have to ask Mazda for an expalantion. No biggie for me. We just report what we hear from the people over at Mazda. Is it truth, misinformation, lies, PR, rumor, marketing, etc... that's up to the reader to decide. Some have decide it is pure BS, others are confused, and yet others believe... We try our best, as rotary enthusiast, to ask questions of our contacts at Mazda, as I imagine you guys would do, and then report what they tell us, no more or less... kind of what CANZOOMER is doing.. but why should I believe Canzoomer's Mazda engineer contact, if everyone at Mazda is lying? You see, it's an interesting situation.


Canzoomer...About your implication of us getting any type money from Mazda for RotaryNews.. for a good story, that's almost laughable. I'll admit that, we've made a dime here and there, ironically only on the RX-8 ads, but it's not even enough to cover a month's expenses for RN.Com. Also, RN.Com has been operating since the early 90's (without a penny from Mazda) and it's only been the last few months that we were able to pull a little ad money from Mazda. You know, it'd be like me saying that you are thrashing the RX-8, so you can set yourself up pretty to sell a lot of your product later on. It'd be nice to be the saviour for all the RX-8 folks out there eh? I don't believe it, but the possibilty is there isn't it.

NOTE: for those that don't know, Dan and I do the work at RN.com for absolutely free. It's only an enthusiast side deal for us, that we do in our little spare time. Dan works full time as computer programmer in Vegas, and I do IT/Document management for a architectural design company in L.A. I happen to be writing from South Africa at the moment.. business trip... thank God for the WORLD WIDE WEB... eh!!

guys: here's some further information that might help you continue your work. Look into the air-flow/management through the engine compartment and all of the associated air temp sensors. The fuel maps and injectors schemes are also key here.

Guys, again I have no problems with the criticsm and I've accepted it, but let's keep a perspective here, RN didn't just make up some sh%$, and try to make everyone believe... I really hope that's not what the majority believes..

Thanks and keep up the good work!


As they say here in S.A. "cheers"

-Bern

p.s. I'd really like to meet both of you personally one of these days!

compaddict

Bern,

I trashed your information not you.

As far as Canzoomers information from unnamed sources not being trashed, I didn't trash it for two reasons.

First Canzoomer has built trust in the group by doing the real brainwork/legwork required and has given us factual information from his labors.

The distant second reason is that the information itself right or wrong doesn't really do any harm.

I'm heading to California Motorspeedway on December 14 for an Evolution Autocross school. I don't know if that is in your area or not, if so?

Vince

RXhusker

A few thoughts:

1. Canzoomer -- thank you so much for your curiosity, hard work and investment! This is my MUST read thread and I am anxiously awaiting final info on your efforts!

2. I still trust Bern and Rotary News -- I think they are just reporting the info they have (that is their job after all) and they may have more info they are not at liberty to discuss right now. I don't think they were trying to do Mazda's dirty work and give false explainations for the HP controversy. Bern and Dan -- thank you also for your hardwork.

3. IMO, Paul Yaw simply stated that it appears the dyno environment causes all sorts of ECU error/warning codes (whatever the correct term is). My impression is that he postulated that this resulted in inaccurate actual "on the road" HP measures. Canzoomer is postulating that the dyno readings are accurate and the ECU codes/safe mode does not impact engine performance -- as evidenced by his tricking the ECU into thinking the front wheels are spinning at the same rate as the rear wheels. Who knows what Yaw thinks now that he has had more time to play with the 8 and the ECU -- I wish Yaw would contribute a little more to the discussions and update us on his findings.

4. Mazda -- hello -- is anybody out there? You can't play tricks and gimicks with rotary enthusiasts. This group is knowledgeable and dedicated to your little rotary engine. Won't somebody step forward with some real info/solutions? It would really help regain some of your credibility and support from your most loyal customer group. Your $500 card and free scheduled service didn't get back any credibility or customer loyalty. Coming up with a real solution and real admission of the situation WILL.

O.R.A.

Bern,

I think it's clear that it is not you who is being trashed or called "BS" upon, but the actual source at Mazda. It is becoming a pattern of trying to deceive the customer.

What about the comments from Sevenstock that the cars that Mazda tested on the 1/4 mile to show that the performance was there even if the hp number was lowered were running on 100 octane fuel?

Can you shed any light on that? I really don't care about the hp number, but I do care about the performance of the car. Not that I'm a 1/4 mile freak, but it just adds to the feeling of being deceived by Mazda. They tell us "yeah the car is still as fast as we said before...", but they mean "...but not if you are running normal pump gas".

I mean this thread:
https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...threadid=11154

bern

Vince, I understand....

On the SevenStock comments, it was in reference to the original pre-production models some journalist tested early on, including RN.Com, at Laguna Seca and prior to...

The Mazda quarter mile time-slips we posted later on, were run with full USA spec engined cars, running on Cali pump 91 octane gas.

DISCLAIMER: I wasn't actually present during the fuel up, so again, I have to trust my contacts.

Hopefully, we at RN will be doing some serious testing with our own project car soon, and reporting the results. We intend to have a few Pro drivers test our car, to get away from the driver experience thing.... interesting thing is, that we have been recieving positive results from private owners around the country, on decent 1/4 and 0-60 performance... hopefully the trend continues!

-Bern

O.R.A.

Cool!

Thanks for your reply and clarification.

bern

Oh.. ok, thanks for the clarification...


Good thing we've (RN) have been so dishonest as too not instill any trust. I would hate that anyone would trust us... or even think we did some work gathering info on enthusiast behalf.

That is not quite true, the comments from folks on this forum, have spooked and made a lot folks feel very uneasy, even bad and disappointed in thier decsisions to buy an RX-8. Many are members of this forum, which have PM'd me to tell me as much. I'll let those folks all speak for themselves, if they want too. Wrong or right, and for his work, CANZOOMER, as you state above, has built trust in the group, and his words carry weight.. wrong or right, or even if not yet fully proven. Again, I don't think or feel that canzoomer is being dishonest or anything, and I applaud his efforts, but a lot of his work although being proven factual to some degree, is still not fully complete and/or proven yet. Sorry canzoomer, I really believe you know what you're doing, I'm not doubting you or anything. Keep up the good work, and if you would like us to review any of your products at RN.Com just let us know.


Yes it is.. I'll try and make it point to come out. Maybe you can give me a tip or two.. I'll bring my FB turbo.


ok.. ok.. no more pissing match for me!

Thanks all... Bern

Buger

I would like to take the time to thank EVERYONE who is spending their own time trying to find answers to the HP issue.

Brian

mikeb

I agree with brian

I think everyone is on the same team

dont shoot the messanger IMO

Lock & Load

To all rx8 forum members who are putting an effort to unscramble the rx8 puzzle RE: HP , MPG ,and other issue , we the rotary faithfulls SALUTE YOU.

MICHAEL

downshift

Hey guys, don't kill the messenger
Like the others, I applaud the sweat and time canzoomer and bern put on trying to find out the truth about this HP issue. It is just isn't fair that this car is brought down by issues like this. Shame on Mazda for not being forthcoming with the information to quell this down once and for all.

We're lucky we have two cool headed dudes here working for the common goal. Both of you have the resources and are able to dig out the truth in this matter. Since the story from Mazda now is a bit shaky, can bern go back to his sources to seek more clarification? At the same time, can canzoomer be absolutely sure that there's one more sensor that the ECU uses that he hasn't found that could cut down the power on the car? Or can we assume that since canzoomer has already found the missing horsepower, then that is considered proof of the BS from Mazda through RN?

What happened to Paul Yaw? The last thing we heard from him is that he is going to use an on-car dyno (Gtech?) to get a more accurate reading on the car's HP. If two independent, private tuners are saying the same thing, then chances are that Mazda is lying (again) is very high, no?

SpacerX

Concur with Brian and Mike's comments. Just want to throw in my support behind both Canzoomer (for his development efforts) and Bern (for his reporting/reviewing efforts).

zoom44

for canzoomer or anyone else to insinuate that Paul Yaw, Dan or Bern would be mouthpieces for Mazda was just wrong.

Thank you to all who are working at finding answers and info. now stop the cheap shots.

canzoomer

It would have no effect, as we are not using the fuel/air ( and optinally ignition) map from the ECU with our mod device.

However, if Mazda did do a reflash this the gain would be less, of course!

There is only so much to be gained from tuning. Beyond that point, if you want to make more power the choices are:

1) Disregard emissions regulations
2) Add boost
3) Other mechanical changes to allow the engine to make more power.

I have doubts that a wide spread ECU reprogram will become available, but i do hope that Mazda will prove me wrong..

Think of it this way:

Right now we are spending time money and effort to simply get back to what we were promised and paid for.
If we start from that point then we are spending this on improvement, rather than recovery

I would rather be spending my time and money on developing a street smooth supercharger kit for the Renesis.. I have started working on that avenue now, but it is delayed, and is only really practical if we nail the fuel/air/timing first.


One step back, two steps forward, I hope!

canzoomer

Absolutely fair comment, Bern!

Good points. I know the type of operation you are in is not likely to be much of a "gold mine" by any means.
I DO take exception, however, when I see "press" acting without verifying the integrity of the sources or their information.
I see your publications articles quoting Mazda PR people and their releases, but I do NOT see the couterpoints from owners and tuners and enthusiasts who state data that contradicts these points.
I feel that your news forum lacks impartiality and even handed reporting.
When one sees that it is tempting to search for the reasons/motivations for this. At present, while Mazda is not lining your pockets with gold, you DO have a somewhat priveleged position with Mazda as they are using you as an organ to dissemenate their claims. You are an "insider".

To question the veracity of those claims and releases would likely diminish your usefulness in their eyes, and perhaps restrict what they share with you.

Journalistic freedom is a narrow and difficult path to follow.

I believe that you, Dan and I all share one thing in common:
An enthusiasm for the RX series of rotary engine cars, and a desire to see them do well.
Ultimately I am going to have to publish detailed results of our work, and provide the parts, documentation, and support for others to realize the benefits we are claiming.

If we fail in this regard we will have to retract/refund and apologize.

In your case you have much less at risk. You can simply stand back and say "they said htis and we reported it"

Yes, I stand to gain some financial reward for the end results of my work, but I sincerely doubt it will tempt me to move away from what I already do as president of a company in the computer hardware business. We sold about 5 million dollars in goods last fiscal year, at a decent profit, and this auto research and parts sideline is almost completely a "hobby interest" to me.

I am a bit of a "car nut" and wanted to get certain things when i bought an RX-8. When that was not delivered, I made a decision that I already mentioned here:

It is less expensive to fix the problem than to walk away and try again. And I still prefer the RX-8 for a large number of reasons.
I feel it is a "better" car than a 350Z, TT, S2000, and so on for a large number of personal reasons.

Frankly, if money were completely no issue I would simply walk away and buy a nice $100,000 Porche, but i can not justify spending that kind of money on what is mainly a "toy" to me.
I do not drive to work, I have other vehicles, and really only do this because it is a great deal of fun, and is personally satisfying to take up a challenge and devise a solution.

I see that Dan and you are in similar modes, and make a living from other avenues entirely.
Yes, I think I know what you mean. We are still doing a lot of tweaking and testing. While we have the fuel/air mixture tech pretty well nailed now, we have lots of work to do yet on ignition, and we still have to recalibrate a lot of this stuff when you add factors like less restrictive exhaust, intake, etc. Ther ewill then be more headroom to gain performance.

I believe we will still be tuning for another 4 to 6 months, but in the meantime I am trying to get a solution to the RX-8 owners that at a minimum, returns the car to the performance level we were told we were getting when we bought the car.

Quote:

Guys, again I have no problems with the criticsm and I've accepted it, but let's keep a perspective here, RN didn't just make up some sh%$, and try to make everyone believe... I really hope that's not what the majority believes..

OK, fair enough, but I suggest that you stand back and look at the released articles, and maybe allow some tyype space for tose who are more controverisal or who disagree with Mazda's claims.
While there is value in reporting their releases, there is also value in publishing fair counterpoint.

Quote:

Thanks and keep up the good work!


As they say here in S.A. "cheers"

-Bern

p.s. I'd really like to meet both of you personally one of these days!

It would be fun. We should have a beer or more..

I will be in Salt Lake City managing an install at U of Utah in mid November, and then am going to Phoenix for a week at the Supercomputing Forum after that. Might be fun to try and hook up along the way sometime in November.

canzoomer

Don't be bitter Bern. I went that route a while back and got soundly thrashed for my comments.
We all finally sucked it up and carried on with the work at hand..
I fully admit I spent some time actively fueling that. By now we know that Mazda have been a bit less than forthright with the facts and a bit loose with the PR claims. This is not the first time they have been caught playing these games, whether it is lease advertising, Miatas or RX's. If people do not shine the light in the dark places then consumers will be burned.
If they do not get caught with their fingers in the cookie jar, and are not held accountable, then they will feel it is "OK" to keep doing this. If a computer that my company sells to a customer does not perform as claimed on the customers benchmarks, we do not try and discredit his testing. We make it our business to fix it to his satisfaction. We sell into the research and supercomputing market, and anything less is unexcusable.
Thank you very much. I am glad you have offered that opportunity.
In about 10 days I intend to install our first "release" setups in a couple of cars belonging to other forum members in the local area. Once we have made sure that it is satisfatory for them , we intend to send kits to 2 press groups. One would certainly be yours.

canzoomer

Let's put some more light on this:

NOBODY has taken out an engine and run it on a dyno, to SAE testing standards, as detailed and observed in the Rotary News article. Therefore NOBODY ( except PERHAPS at Mazda) who knows with certainty what HP the engine is making at the crank.

What some of us have done is to simply measure the power, test, mod and test again, and measure the RELATIVE gains to what we started with. In our case, we find it easy to get 25HP with moderate fual/air, 35HP with more radical fuel air, and 47HP with this and some more aggressive ignition timing.

That is on a DYNO in the shop. Yes, I have taken it for short runs, and i can easily confirm it is making more power.
Considerably more.
I can break the rear tires free on the 2-3 shift and I know I can light them up at will in 1st/2nd. I am not talking about a 9K clutch drop either!

I have just spent another $1,000 to buy more portable and accurate fuel/ air measuring devices, installing two accurate pyrometers in the exhaust, and we will be spending most of this weekend on the road with the car tuning it there to verify and confirm what we accomplished on the dyno.
I am also going to do a run that will use at least a tnakful on the highway by the end of this weekend, and compare my mileage to my stock results. I keep quite detailed logs.
By the end of next week I will also have run a city tankful, and can compare that too.

We also have to accurately determine the exhaust temperatures on road conditions so as to ensure that our mods are safe to use on real world conditions with stock exhaust systems and cats.

Hopefully we will finish this over the weekend, and then can set
some final maps to use for what we will be selling to people.

So far I am about $3K out of pocket on this, and the tuning shop I work with have spent around 100 hours of their time in this project. Count our time in the investment costs, and this is a $15,000 project to date.

We are lucky in that those of us doing it feel we are investing the time in the eventual production and sale of products for the RX-8, and are confident that there is enough of a market to recoup this and a small profit.

Once done I will end up with"free" performance on my personal RX-8, a hell of a lot of insights and knowledge about the car, and maybe a few $$, but that is the least certain part of the project.

For the first while ALL the revenues we make will have to go completely to the tuner shop I am working with to allow him to get return on his investment. He does this stuff for a living. I am merely a hobbyist, and the sponsor of the project.

As for final measurement, while we are not pro drag racers, I feel it is perfectly valid to compare the performance results we achieve before and after the mods.

If I only get a 15 second quarter with no mods, and a 14 second after, I know I am gaining a second. If this means a real racer can get 13's, that would be cool!

Frankly I am more interested in time from 30mph to 60mph and to 100mph, than ET on a drag strip.

I do not drive on a drag strip..

bern

Thank you for you very level headed and well thought out comments here. I think it is fair to say that we are all looking for answers, and we all have something to contribute here. We are on here, as yourself, to offer counter-points or at least thoughts to an issue. Sometime the forum gets very heavy, and points on both sides need to be heard and debated.

As far as us (RN) not providing a counter-point oppurtunity to enthusiast, tuners and all others at RN.Com, your comments are not quite correct. If you look at all RN.Com stories, you will notice that one can leave input and comments, for all to see and talk to.

SEE COMMENTS HERE on this specific topic:

RN.Com DYNO ISSSUE Article -COMMENTS

It was actually my goal, when I partnered with Dan a few years ago, that the enthusiast have a voice at RN.Com, and not only a voice in the empty, but something that Mazda or any other company involved with a story could read and review. I would hope that many more people would use the "comment" feature at our site. We actually take a lot of this commentary/information, and use it to ask questions, and get to the bottom of things, on many of our stories.




This is correct and admitted.



True and we've been threatend with this, because of our stories, but we've pressed forward anyway. Believe me, Mazda doesn't always appreciate our INFORMED questions and issues. They cringe sometimes when they see us. At the RX-8 world-wide press release, the Japanese engineers and designers were fore-warned that RN.Com would be in attendance and that they should be on top of thier games.... even at the short press release, when we asked for questions from our readership, to put forth to Mazda, they asked us to review the questions off-line from the main press answer-question session. I think they were afraid of the issues we might bring forward in public.. In my persception, they really didn't like when I asked about their crappy dealer service support and they way it had effected the 3rd gen RX-7, and what they had done to improve this situation.. so all though we are "somewhat priviliged outsiders" we are by no means true insiders. Most of the folks we get our REAL info from, are company folks that DO NOT want to be quoted in public.. sort of like your engineer contact. I wouldn't doubt I know the person you spoke too.



True... and since I don't the first thing about being a journalist or writing for that matter... your implication here that I'm some kind of hack, is a major compliment thanks!!




Great and thanks for the efforts.. you'll start to see a few aftermarket goodies also coming on-line, from the traditional rotary vendors soon. Very exciting!




Addressed above and more than welcome. NOTE: Dan does tend to be a little more ferverent than me, but he owns the actual RN.Com RX-8 project car, so it's to be expected... We are by no means perfect or totally un-biased sometimes, but we are learning and tying hard!


If I'm back in town in November, I'll try and see what I can do. I'm in South Africa at the moment, and will be moving on to Dubai, Philippines, and Japan, before coming home... if not then, I'm sure our paths will cross soon. Again, the invitation to test anything and review it at RN.Com is open to you!

Cheers from SA,

-Bern

p.s. absolutely no bitterness on my part.. just a little sarcasm!