Sevenstock RX-8 dyno secret
09-17-2003, 03:43 PM
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Sevenstock RX-8 dyno secret
Sorry If I sounds kinda lost in this forum, but I read somewhere in some previous thread that someone is going to unveil in Sevenstock on why dyno results of the RX-8 so far is incomplete/inaccurate due to the ECU intervention. Is this true, and is someone going to shed some light on what was done by Mazda in the port during those mysterious weeks?
09-17-2003, 04:29 PM
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Banquet
We will have a good number Mazda employees who are players in the RX-8 development, including Ikuo Maeda, RX-8 Chief Designer. There will also be folks like the RX-8 US Manager in attendance (Remeber? the guy last year that showed us the raw track footage of the RX-8 and the Spirit-R RX-7 at the Mazda Proving grounds)
They will be at the banquet, and while they won't have a "press release" information dissemination, there is usually a Q&A session with the folks in attendance.
They will be at the banquet, and while they won't have a "press release" information dissemination, there is usually a Q&A session with the folks in attendance.
09-17-2003, 05:21 PM
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To Rotarynews.com member,
I think you mentioned in some other thread (I can't seem to find it now) or dropped a hint that the "federal government" is to blame for this, and that you and/or someone will disclose the secret of this hp mishap during sevenstock. Please clarify on this - does anyone recall what thread the above mentioned issues/comments were placed in?
I think you mentioned in some other thread (I can't seem to find it now) or dropped a hint that the "federal government" is to blame for this, and that you and/or someone will disclose the secret of this hp mishap during sevenstock. Please clarify on this - does anyone recall what thread the above mentioned issues/comments were placed in?
09-17-2003, 05:35 PM
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Originally posted by RodimusOne
To Rotarynews.com member,
I think you mentioned in some other thread (I can't seem to find it now) or dropped a hint that the "federal government" is to blame for this, and that you and/or someone will disclose the secret of this hp mishap during sevenstock. Please clarify on this - does anyone recall what thread the above mentioned issues/comments were placed in?
To Rotarynews.com member,
I think you mentioned in some other thread (I can't seem to find it now) or dropped a hint that the "federal government" is to blame for this, and that you and/or someone will disclose the secret of this hp mishap during sevenstock. Please clarify on this - does anyone recall what thread the above mentioned issues/comments were placed in?
Originally posted by bern
Guys,
Through some research and talking to a few folks, I can speculate with high degree of certainty, that the RX-8 is pulling back some timing and adding fuel up high, to protect the engine while on a chassis dyno. This among other things. If my understanding of the matter is correct, the sophisticated 32-bit ECU collects data from several inputs to implement the operational fuel and timing maps. It seems that some of the inputs that the ECU is receiving, while on a dyno, is telling it something is not absolutely correct, and that it should use, what I would term, safe maps.
I have not been able to absolutely confirm all of this information, but it seems to be a very plausible explanation for the descripency between 1/4 times and dyno results.
Guys,
Through some research and talking to a few folks, I can speculate with high degree of certainty, that the RX-8 is pulling back some timing and adding fuel up high, to protect the engine while on a chassis dyno. This among other things. If my understanding of the matter is correct, the sophisticated 32-bit ECU collects data from several inputs to implement the operational fuel and timing maps. It seems that some of the inputs that the ECU is receiving, while on a dyno, is telling it something is not absolutely correct, and that it should use, what I would term, safe maps.
I have not been able to absolutely confirm all of this information, but it seems to be a very plausible explanation for the descripency between 1/4 times and dyno results.
Originally posted by rotarynews.com
These cars can't be dynoed. and obtain the same results as street driving (with the US ECU program)
See me at SevenStock for info on why :D Here's a hint though, the federal government is to blame
These cars can't be dynoed. and obtain the same results as street driving (with the US ECU program)
See me at SevenStock for info on why :D Here's a hint though, the federal government is to blame
Regards,
Gordon
09-17-2003, 06:13 PM
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Thanks zoo44 and Gord96BRG for your prompt replies!
So from what was posted, I am assuming rotarynews.com will have something to say how the dyno hp losses/ECU/federal govt are connected during Sevenstock. Please confirm this rotarynews.com.
So from what was posted, I am assuming rotarynews.com will have something to say how the dyno hp losses/ECU/federal govt are connected during Sevenstock. Please confirm this rotarynews.com.
09-17-2003, 06:35 PM
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Thanks for the reply,
Can you drop another hint - Is there a way to remedy whatever the fed govt/ecu did to get the ponies back up? If it's fixable, then I'm sure it'll give a lot of us, the 2004 RX-8 owners, the peace of mind that eventually, we'll get what we paid for.
Can you drop another hint - Is there a way to remedy whatever the fed govt/ecu did to get the ponies back up? If it's fixable, then I'm sure it'll give a lot of us, the 2004 RX-8 owners, the peace of mind that eventually, we'll get what we paid for.
09-17-2003, 06:48 PM
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Originally posted by RodimusOne
Can you drop another hint - Is there a way to remedy whatever the fed govt/ecu did to get the ponies back up? If it's fixable, then I'm sure it'll give a lot of us, the 2004 RX-8 owners, the peace of mind that eventually, we'll get what we paid for.
Can you drop another hint - Is there a way to remedy whatever the fed govt/ecu did to get the ponies back up? If it's fixable, then I'm sure it'll give a lot of us, the 2004 RX-8 owners, the peace of mind that eventually, we'll get what we paid for.
Regards,
Gordon
09-17-2003, 07:00 PM
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Originally posted by Gord96BRG
It's a problem that shows up only when on a dyno. On the street, you are getting what you paid for.
It's a problem that shows up only when on a dyno. On the street, you are getting what you paid for.
1. The RX-8 cannot be rear-wheel dynoed
2. Reduction in horsepower from the 247 (or the Jspec)
But both of these issues are caused by the US federales estupido...
09-17-2003, 08:15 PM
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So, the car can detect when it's on a dyno, and modify the engine controlling as a result?
According to the EPA, that's exactly the definition of a "Defeat Device," and that's VERY against their rules.
If this is true, expect EPA to be issuing a recall as soon as they find out.
...and somewhere, and engine calibration engineer will be falling on his sword...
According to the EPA, that's exactly the definition of a "Defeat Device," and that's VERY against their rules.
If this is true, expect EPA to be issuing a recall as soon as they find out.
...and somewhere, and engine calibration engineer will be falling on his sword...
09-18-2003, 03:05 AM
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Ok, you say it may turn out the car can not be measured at the dyno because the ECU retards smth knowing the car is not moving.
What about a GTechPro Competition?
The car is moving in real world, and the GTechPro Comp is a quite accurate device. Or you say the RX-8 smart ECU even detects our thoughts about attaching g-meters to the car and hides the horsepower just like on a dyno.
I can't say more but check an upcoming issue of Sport Compact Car related to GTech and RX-8 :p
What about a GTechPro Competition?
The car is moving in real world, and the GTechPro Comp is a quite accurate device. Or you say the RX-8 smart ECU even detects our thoughts about attaching g-meters to the car and hides the horsepower just like on a dyno.
I can't say more but check an upcoming issue of Sport Compact Car related to GTech and RX-8 :p
09-18-2003, 07:34 AM
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by bern
Guys,
Through some research and talking to a few folks, I can speculate with high degree of certainty, that the RX-8 is pulling back some timing and adding fuel up high, to protect the engine while on a chassis dyno. This among other things. If my understanding of the matter is correct, the sophisticated 32-bit ECU collects data from several inputs to implement the operational fuel and timing maps. It seems that some of the inputs that the ECU is receiving, while on a dyno, is telling it something is not absolutely correct, and that it should use, what I would term, safe maps.
I have not been able to absolutely confirm all of this information, but it seems to be a very plausible explanation for the descripency between 1/4 times and dyno results.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The 8 has a 32 bit ECU? That is quite a bit of processing power for a car. I wouldn't be surprised then if it has different maps for for various conditions like snow/ice, break-in, a malfunctioning part, and others. Therefore, when it's on a dyno the car might think its in a various condition and implement a different map for it causing lower h.p. We could have a very smart car on our hands.
I have no idea if this is even plausible, it was just a thought I had. Also I have no idea if this has been discussed before, I have tried to stay away from all the dyno/hp threads.
-JiM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by bern
Guys,
Through some research and talking to a few folks, I can speculate with high degree of certainty, that the RX-8 is pulling back some timing and adding fuel up high, to protect the engine while on a chassis dyno. This among other things. If my understanding of the matter is correct, the sophisticated 32-bit ECU collects data from several inputs to implement the operational fuel and timing maps. It seems that some of the inputs that the ECU is receiving, while on a dyno, is telling it something is not absolutely correct, and that it should use, what I would term, safe maps.
I have not been able to absolutely confirm all of this information, but it seems to be a very plausible explanation for the descripency between 1/4 times and dyno results.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The 8 has a 32 bit ECU? That is quite a bit of processing power for a car. I wouldn't be surprised then if it has different maps for for various conditions like snow/ice, break-in, a malfunctioning part, and others. Therefore, when it's on a dyno the car might think its in a various condition and implement a different map for it causing lower h.p. We could have a very smart car on our hands.
I have no idea if this is even plausible, it was just a thought I had. Also I have no idea if this has been discussed before, I have tried to stay away from all the dyno/hp threads.
-JiM
09-18-2003, 03:11 PM
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Guys:
Don't forget my 3rd quote:
I'm not even sure what Dan can or will say, so I'll be looking forward to this too 
. There will be Mazda Product experts at the event, that will hopefully shed some light, but I doubt they will be saying anything specific. I'm just not sure that they will talk directly to this issue, there will probably be a party line at SevenStock!
On the Federal Goverment thing, this was put out by Mazda direclty, a few weeks ago, also in the general press.
-Bern
Don't forget my 3rd quote:
As far as SevenStock, I hope you all can come and visit with us. I won't be speaking on this subject at all, but Dan sure seems to think he can...
. There will be Mazda Product experts at the event, that will hopefully shed some light, but I doubt they will be saying anything specific. I'm just not sure that they will talk directly to this issue, there will probably be a party line at SevenStock!On the Federal Goverment thing, this was put out by Mazda direclty, a few weeks ago, also in the general press.
-Bern
09-29-2003, 11:48 AM
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Okay fresh from Sevenstock.. the RX-8 guys hit Mazda pretty hard with questions on HP.. and when you read between the lines this is what the deal is.
Mazda re-flashed the ECU to fatten the mixture. That seems to be it. They said they did it for a number of reason.. the biggest seems to be that new cars have to have a cat that lasts for 10+ years.. running lean will kill the cat before that so they had to change the map. Then they went into this crap about how hot the cat gets when running lean and starting fires but I don't buy that. It was also hinted that if you get ahold of a J-spec ECU it will plug and play and give you full HP.
The test cars the journalists used were running 100 octaine with the J-spec ECUs. The ECU will give mo powah with higher octaine.. or at least it did before they changed it. The Japanese Renesis guys freaked when they found out that Cali only has 91 octaine and told them to put in 100 for the tests.
Mazda says that you need at least 91 octaine to get good HP out of the car but it will run on 87 and the engine will de-tune itself to avoid detonation.
Mazda (inadvertatly) admitted to a fuel starvation problem on the track once you get to about 3/8 of a tank. They are working on a fix and it sounded like they had one before they basicly told the guy to shut up. Sounds like the pickup in the tank isn't in the best spot but you won't notice this in daily driving.. only track days.
Once again if you read between the lines.. they are testing a turbo Renesis right now but they refuse to admit it. They said they are testing various different versions of engines and some include forced induction.
Lastly.. Mazda says that if the RX-8 doesn't sell around 2000-2500 cars a month it will be considered a failure and not to expect any other rotary cars any time soon.
Mazda re-flashed the ECU to fatten the mixture. That seems to be it. They said they did it for a number of reason.. the biggest seems to be that new cars have to have a cat that lasts for 10+ years.. running lean will kill the cat before that so they had to change the map. Then they went into this crap about how hot the cat gets when running lean and starting fires but I don't buy that. It was also hinted that if you get ahold of a J-spec ECU it will plug and play and give you full HP.
The test cars the journalists used were running 100 octaine with the J-spec ECUs. The ECU will give mo powah with higher octaine.. or at least it did before they changed it. The Japanese Renesis guys freaked when they found out that Cali only has 91 octaine and told them to put in 100 for the tests.
Mazda says that you need at least 91 octaine to get good HP out of the car but it will run on 87 and the engine will de-tune itself to avoid detonation.
Mazda (inadvertatly) admitted to a fuel starvation problem on the track once you get to about 3/8 of a tank. They are working on a fix and it sounded like they had one before they basicly told the guy to shut up. Sounds like the pickup in the tank isn't in the best spot but you won't notice this in daily driving.. only track days.
Once again if you read between the lines.. they are testing a turbo Renesis right now but they refuse to admit it. They said they are testing various different versions of engines and some include forced induction.
Lastly.. Mazda says that if the RX-8 doesn't sell around 2000-2500 cars a month it will be considered a failure and not to expect any other rotary cars any time soon.
09-29-2003, 12:15 PM
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Originally posted by test driver
So, the car can detect when it's on a dyno, and modify the engine controlling as a result?
According to the EPA, that's exactly the definition of a "Defeat Device," and that's VERY against their rules.
If this is true, expect EPA to be issuing a recall as soon as they find out.
...and somewhere, and engine calibration engineer will be falling on his sword...
So, the car can detect when it's on a dyno, and modify the engine controlling as a result?
According to the EPA, that's exactly the definition of a "Defeat Device," and that's VERY against their rules.
If this is true, expect EPA to be issuing a recall as soon as they find out.
...and somewhere, and engine calibration engineer will be falling on his sword...
here in texas, for cars with OBDII ('96+) they just plug into the ECU and so the "defeat device" is not relevant.
09-29-2003, 12:16 PM
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Originally posted by jsotelo
Mazda (inadvertatly) admitted to a fuel starvation problem on the track once you get to about 3/8 of a tank. They are working on a fix and it sounded like they had one before they basicly told the guy to shut up. Sounds like the pickup in the tank isn't in the best spot but you won't notice this in daily driving.. only track days.
Mazda (inadvertatly) admitted to a fuel starvation problem on the track once you get to about 3/8 of a tank. They are working on a fix and it sounded like they had one before they basicly told the guy to shut up. Sounds like the pickup in the tank isn't in the best spot but you won't notice this in daily driving.. only track days.
Thanks for the update from SevenStock. As for the fuel starvation problem, I can say that it does exist and it reared its ugly head when I was at Watkins Glen. The car cuts out in the upper revs when the tank is about 1/4 full. After I pulled off the track and let the car sit for a moment I was able to limp it back to pit row.
09-29-2003, 12:18 PM
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Originally posted by jsotelo
Lastly.. Mazda says that if the RX-8 doesn't sell around 2000-2500 cars a month it will be considered a failure and not to expect any other rotary cars any time soon.
Lastly.. Mazda says that if the RX-8 doesn't sell around 2000-2500 cars a month it will be considered a failure and not to expect any other rotary cars any time soon.
personally, i don't see it happening... which makes me _very_ sad. 
thanks for the SS footnotes...