O.R.A.

Such a sweet idle, though...

zoom44

it's going to be either Oregon or Washington.

Blue87Sport

Try New York. They are adopting CA emissions standards for 2004 model year cars. At least according to
http://www.state.ny.us/governor/pres...00/nov6_00.htm

Omicron

Ok, I've finally made my way through all 22 pages of this post. Well worth the read!

Canzoomer, a BIG round of APPLAUSE for all the work you've put into this. You can definitely sign me up for at least some level of kit once you release them.

Now I have some questions...

I am in the same boat as SpeedRacer, except that I already HAVE the Borla system installed, and am not planning on doing a CAI. Figure the new intake will come with the FI down the road sometime, and the stock intake is good enough for now. Either way, could you answer SR's questions for us both?

I'd also be interested in doing the same thing - especially after I add FI sometime down the road...


If this is the case, then why hasn't Mazda revised their gasoline requirements? It says throughout the owner's manual that 91 octane gas is required, although the empirical evidence suggests that this is more BS from Mazda, as other owners are apparently running just fine with 87 octane... Comments?

Does this mean that we could essentially switch your piggyback fuel/ignition controller off with setting (1) when it comes to emissions time? Or would we need to completely unplug the unit?

And what about setting (3)? Does this mean your controllers would be PRE-PROGRAMMED to accept FI with 6Lbs of boost?!?!?

I'd love to see an answer to this one, as my feeling is, if I fry my cat prematurely, SO WHAT? As I recall, even high flow cats only cost around $300-$500, and if that expense only comes every 5+ years, the cost is essentially negligible. But I'd really like to know how long the stock cat would last with the new setup...

See question above... how fast would it destroy the stock cat? Recall that I already have the Borla cat-back system, so it should handle the extra heat just fine.

Any idea when this will happen?

If this happens (and I realize it may well not) do you think this will still be made available to those of us, like me, who purchased the car after Oct 1st, when Mazda's buy back/debit card/free service offer has essentially expired? Or will it just be made available to those that bought the car before all the controversy started?

I WANT I WANT I WANT :D Improved fuel economy would be nice too.

Like to see an answer to this one too...

You can sign me up for one of these too... just haven't decided if I am going to wait for the warranty to expire before I add the FI or not. Decisions, decisions.

--------------

Suffice it to say that I am ready to become a customer for these units. I want max reasonable gains while retaining daily drivability and not (for now) voiding the factory warranty with any non-easily-removable parts. As I've said, I have the Borla setup, and am inclined to go with both the fuel and ignition controllers, especially if I can control the settings from a cockpit mounted controller of some sort (The smaller and less obtrusive, the better though. A simple switch/**** would be fine with me). I don't care that much if I fry my cat prematurely, as long as it still lasts 5 or more years.

Thanks again for all the AWESOME work!! YOU ROCK!!!!!!!!

RXhusker

Omicron -- you have just summarized every thought/question regarding Canzoomers project I have. Also can't wait to get it ordered and installed. :D

Dang our cars are almost identical right down to the clear sides and Borla -- guess great minds think alike.... I see you live in Colo. -- I lived in Boulder for four years while getting my undergrad at CU. I'm getting ready for some snowmobiling out there in a few months -- not sure if I will take the 8 though . Although my 1st gen RX-7 faithfully made it to Vail or Breckenridge almost every weekend for four years -- and without snow tires

Genom

A few corrections for you. The issue about a trade-in has been addressed. He doesnt forsee any problem with it. Also the people with new exhausts also got a reply about it being all good. A few other mistakes. If you read all the posts you'll spot the ones you missed.

Finally, the Mazda manual in the US at least RECOMENDS 91 or above, but states clearly that down to 87 is OK, you'll just have marginally less performance. That BTW, a lot of people havent noticed when testing 87.

DefBringer

canzoomer,

Thank you.

Will you please make sure to give us the website where you are going to sell these devices through? Are you going to be designing your own piece of equipment or will you be using something like the Apex'i SAFC?

I sure hope you're not BS'ing us. I had every intention of swinging by the Mitsu dealership this weekend to buy the Evolution. If what you say is true, I will hold off and buy the RX-8.

Omicron

RXhusker - I'm in the Boulder area, and yes, looking at your sig block, it does look like great minds think alike!

Genom - Was you post directed at my questions for Canzoomer? If so, can you please elaborate a bit on the "mistakes?" I did read all the posts, and in fact, kept notes as I went along to make sure I got all my questions down. When I encountered an answer, I deleted that particular question. So I "think" all my questions are valid, and reasonable. If you can point me specifically to where I went wrong, I will appreciate it and stand corrected.

Thanks...

canzoomer

We have just completed coming to agreement with the people who run this forum.

Look for our forum and banner ad to be here shortly.

We will be featuring our tuning parts, Mazda accessories, and also engine updates including ceramic seals and re-machined rotors performed and supplied by RX 7 Specialties of Calgary Alberta. They rebuild rotaries, do rotor work, and have a complete line of Ceramat and pure ceramic seals.

They stock engines and parts for RX-8, and also build rotary race engines.

One of their offerings will be an engine rebuild with ceramic seals, machined rotors to drop compression to 9:1 to support boosted Renesis engines.

Anyway, keep watching here.

canzoomer

Our single map fuel/air/ignition controller is our own build. We did the tuning work with the Greddy and for those who want multi-map we will likely use the Apexi.

We want to keep the base unit at an economical price.

We are trying very hard to keep within $500 US.

Genom

Omicron: I didnt mean to sound gruff. I cant tell you specifically where they where replied to as the post has grown quite a bit, but I do know those questions I mentioned where repied to as I said.

Sorry, I aint gonna re-read the whole thing to find them, but they ARE there.

*Edit:

Was bored and went looking. Here's one example:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Speed Racer


Canzoomer,
Would you be willing to do a "trade-in" program for us early adopters? By that I mean, if we buy your fuel controller when it first comes out will we be able to send it back to you to be updated and/or reflashed when you release the fuel/ignition controller or the multi-map setup? Of course we would gladly pay the difference in price between the models.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



That makes perfect sense.

Yes, I think we would do that.
I will talk it over with my collaborator, but I can't think of any reason why not.

wakeech

hey canzoomer, if they're offering that in the package, why don't they source some of the MSP side housings (i don't know if the intermediate housing is the same or just ported differently on the hi and lo power versions) and go 4 port with their package too?? it's way better for a boost application, and at least as necessary as dropping the compression ratio for optimal performance.

also: this belongs in another thread, but what're their pricing on ceramic seals, and how do they work with the different 13B-MSP rotor housings (plating technique is different)?? i'm just wondering if they're really worth it, as the old 2 peice Mazda seals have a huge reputation...

canzoomer

You should really address those questions to Adam, as he has been doing this for a long time, and has way more info than i do.

http://www.rotaryengine.ca/

http://www.rotaryengine.ca/e-mods.htm

403-246-6980

Speak to Adam Heyman.

Omicron

Canzoomer, did you see my long post of questions on the previous page? I'd sure appreciate an answer to it, as you can put me in your category of "definite buyers" when you get the fuel/ignition controllers ready to sell.

Thanks...

Genom, no offense taken. I think what you might have taken as questions for Canzoomer were actually statements on my part... such as the one you posted in your reply to me, where I was basically just saying "I'd be interested in this this trade-in/reflash option too.

canzoomer

Sorry, I was away a couple of days at the beginning of this week, and then had to deal with my engine problem on the way home.

Add to that a tooth problem last weekend, and this has been a bit of a stressful week.

I am now sitting here with a decent glass of bordeaux, and life is *MUCH* better!

1) Aftermarket exhaust breaks down to 2 categories:
A] Cat-back. Might help a bit in reducing restriction.
To do so will be louder. As stock maps for fuel are overly rich at rpm over 6,000 this will likely increase airflow, and gain a bit of power by leaning the mixture. The gains to be made are similar with stock maps or modified. Flow is flow. It adds HP, unless you are running too lean, which is not what will happen in either case, at the top end. It might make it a bit hooter with stock ECU maps as Mazda has set this a bit lean to start with.

B) Mid-pipe. This is where the big gains are to be had. The RX-8 uses fairly large cats, so small flow gains are there by going to a straight-thru midpipe. Much more gain is to be had as you can then run fuel maps that are leaner, and ignition timing that is more aggressive. With cats we can only do so much, as the exhaust temperature rises with power output. Beyond 1750F you will vaporize the catalyst coatings on the cat bricks.
Stok the engine peaks around 1600F. But we have seen the temps rise pretty quick as we add ignition advance.
By removing them you can run more aggressive tuning without this risk.
The trade-off is that you will make more emmissions, and will be illegal in most jurisdictions for road use.
If you want to do this ONLY in off-road(track) use, then it is permissable and recommended. Removing and replacing the mid-pipe is a 10 minute job.
However in doing so you are removing the O2 sensors, so the O2 feedback to the ECU is then in open-loop mode, and you have to add feedback to the ECU to fool it into believing that the O2 readings are OK, and that costs money as it is more logic.

Hence the added costs of our stage 2 and stage 3 tune options.
The stage 2 also includes the ignition mapping control, so is a more extensive component and map device.

This is really aimed at a track application. I am not the thought police, so you can run this on the street if you wish, but I would prefer that you did not.

As for trade-ins we have decided that this is something we will do. There will always be much more demenad for the Stage1 kit, so we will end up re-packaging trade-ins and selling them as used and re-certified at a discount. There will be a trade-in cost of around 50% to cover the discount and costs. We have to test the returned units, clean up anything that is damaged or messed up, and re-package them.

As Stage2 REQUIRES 91 octane or better, and voids ANY warranty and emmisions we WILL require the purchaser to sign a disclaimer form.

87 octane is perfectly safe on a stock RX-8.
To use our Stage1 kit we require that you use at least 89 octane fuel. We have tested with 89 at 3,000 feet altitude and it will not make for knock.
On 87 there would be definite risk of pre-ignition knock. With stock apex seals that could possibly kill your engine.

To take the FC out of the car for emmissions tests you have 2 choices:
1) remove the unit ( a 15 minute job)
2) One may optionally wire in a defeat switch. This requires wiring and a switch that we are not including, but we will include instructions. A 4 pole, double throw switch is required.
Switching must be done with the car turned off, or you will trigger an ECU check engine event, and this will be detectable by dealer diagnostics.
Once switched you need to let the car idle for 5 minutes, and to run gently for another 10 to allow the engine ECU to "re-train".

Generally it is simpler to unplug the unit.
One MUST remove the unit for dealer service, or you risk them voiding your warranty if they find it.

Forced air induction by turbo or supercharger requres tuning maps that can deal with intake positive pressure. A non-FI setup is only zero or negative pressure mapped. It is an ENTIRELY different condition. Running FI with no appropriate map would be suicide for the engine and make limited power gains.
More air in requires more fuel.
In some cars you have to upgrade the fuel injection equipment for more flow capacity, but i do not think this is necessary on the RX-8.

Based on our testing, running boost with no proper positive pressure tuning is going to risk killing your engine and cause constant check engine status. I am confident that anyone who makes a boost kit and is competent will have to include fuel/air control to deal with this requirement. We hope to offer this in our kit options so the vendors for chargers don't have to.

We also are recommending that the engine be rebuilt with ceramic apex seals. Further we advise using re-machined rotors to reduce the compressionratio to 9.2:1 or lower. Any other actions will likely result in severely limited seal and engine life.
This is a 10:1 compression engine. Even 4 pounds of boost may be bad if run on stock seals.
If you look at the 2nd gen and 3rd gen RX-7's the boosted models had lower compression ratios.

High flow cats are not too expensive as you mentioned, but they are not "magic".
They use coatings which can only take heat up to around 1750 degrees.

If you run aggresively re-mapped ignition AND fuel maps, it is NOT a legal street tune. Don't do this unless you are COMPLETELY sure about what you are getting into.

One good run of WOT through the gears will produce 1800F exhaust temps. A few of these and your cats have no coating left. They then become expensive non-efficient resonators.

Only by keeping the temps below 1700 can we reliably know that they will still be working.

If Mazda does release a flash to update the ECUs I can not see any reason why they would limit to one group of cars over another. I think their biggest obstacle is self-created. To do a new ECU map they have to comeup with a consistent and credible reason. Doing this only for power reasons would contradict what they have said.
Fuel economy may be an alternative.

Anyway, for now we are setting the first target for releasing a device with fuel/air maps to produce roughly a 25HP gain, to preserve the cats, and to help on mileage if you drive aggressively.

Once that is done we will return to the direction of ignition timing as well. Starting with a non-cat midpipe we willwork on a kit with timing plus fuel control, and with O2 sensor simulation to keep the ECU happy.

I had said i was interested in working on a supercharger kit before, but after looking that over, we can certainly do it, BUT:
1) It is not a cheap project. Probably around a $30K investment.
2) If others are doing it as well , that is a stupid move for us to make.
3) I do not want to experiment with boost on the engine at 10:1.
I hope to get re-machined rotors at 9.2:1 or so before I try this. I also want ceramic apex seals. Perhaps I am being overly cautious, and maybe this is not necessary, but I would hate to find out the hard way. I am already becoming the leader in broken parts. Sure that is the price you pay, but I don't enjoy doing it if it is not needed!
4) As it is now I know of 5 parties working on releasing an RX-8 kit for turbocharging or supercharging. I would much rather work with the results of their work, add our tuning to this, and Adams machining and parts, and make these into reliable mods.

Finally, thanks for the kind words. As for the "Rock" part, well, I am 47 years old, and this is a hobby. I am having a hell of a good time doing this, and I appreciate that some of you are looking forward to it.

As I said a while ago, when I decided to keep the car, it is a great machine, and if I have to spend a few thousand dollars to make it what I want, and enjoy myself on the way there, I think that is just fine, thank you.
In hard cash, even if I DID blow an engine and had to pay for it I would still be at less expense than if I had bought a 350Z Track Pack, and about $5K below buying an A4 or TT. And $25K below a 'vette.

That is not too bad, because this is a cooler car than any of those.

Kas

Huge post!

Canzoomer, I cant wait for the stage 2/3 kits to come to Australia. Maybe you can include the mid-pipe with the kit also? (at extra cost to us)

Great work. Cant wait to see the dyno sheets!

strong bad

Canzoomer, I've also got to give you major credit. What you're doing is amazing. Glad to have somebody like you around the boards

Just a few questions is all I have (apologies in advance for possible repeated questions. I may have missed a post or two in this rather robust 23 pager ).

I know some ppl here have already installed their Borla exhausts, some even claiming minimal performance increases (I think I read somebody claiming 10hp). How much hp gain on avg would you say the Borla gives? Also, would the performance increase be added to the 25 hp that your kit offers? Or is it all factored in?

OK so what I need cleared up is...

- Does your stage 1 kit (mapping/fuel control) yield a 25 hp gain to the wheels or crank?

- And is this hp gain acheived with or without an aftermarket exhaust?

Thank you.

Peter Sawko

Canzoomer, in your last post you mentioned that a stage one unit was ok with minimum 89 octane when tested at 3000 feet. Here in Colorado we start at 5200 feet! Do you have any concerns in using your ECU tuner at our altitudes? Appreciate all you've posted to date.

Thanks!

colin204

It it possible to have the different stage maps on one unit and switch between them depending on what driving mood you are in?

Will you be taking pre orders?

canzoomer

1) An aftermarket exhaust system makes power in two ways:
a) Less flow resistance against the engine
b) change of fuel/air ratios resulting from increased flow. IF the stock fuel/air map is too rich then more power will result.
This IS the case on the RX-8 as the top end ( over 6000rpm) map is WAY too rich.
How much too rich?
A good rule of thumb for WOT mixture is in the 12:1 to 13:1 mixture ratio range. We are using something around this.
The stock Mazda ratio is around 11:1 at 6200rpm, and 10:1 around 7200rpm. At power peak for the engine ( determined by engine airflow capacity) the mixture stock is 10.3:1 and we are using around 12.6:1

I have not dynoed the Borla ( I hope to do so soon on Ray Doctors car)
I suspect, based on what I have seen and heard that the Borla will make up to 10HP gain, probably split evenly between these two factors.

2)Add the Borla to our FC and I suspect teh FC will still contrinute 25HP and the Borla 5 (we are no longer running too rich at WOT).
As I have said before better power mapping is easily achieved, but at the risk of over-heating the front catalytic converter.

3)We measure HP at the wheels two ways:
a)On a Mustang dyno, relative to a series of baseline runs we did with stock config. To achive ensured good runs we redirected the rear wheel speed sensors to the front wheel inputs on the ABS system, so as to avoid ABS faults.
We set the DSC to off
We monitored the OBD for faults while running.
b) On the road with a GTEch Pro.

25HP is a rear wheel gain, based on runs we did around Red Deer Alberta. Altitude: 2,800 feet. Ambient temp 16C ( 61F). Fuel Shell 91 Octane. 1 driver, 180 lbs, 1/4 tank of fuel.
We also verified with 94 octane certified reference fuel.
Lastly we did runs at night at 2C (36F) and saw around 28HP.
Best cold air intake ibn the world is really cold ambient air!

At 5,000 feet we will still see close to the same gains.
At sea level we will see the same gains or more. Again, temperature will cause some differences. The hotter it is, the less power you make.Stock or altered..
We are adjusting relative to a baseline measurement. We set the mixture to be "safe" , that is to say it will NOT knock on 89 octane, and will LIKELY not knock on 87, but it is safest to run 89 or better.

4) In terms of Aftermarket exhasut I assume you mean a "cat-back" like the Borla and others? My car has dead stock exhaust. No mods whatsoever.
We ALSO did runs with the midpipe replaced with one with no catalytic converters. In those we ramped up the fuel mixture tuning and achieved 35HP. To do so we had to provide a signal from the connector of the 2nd O2 sensor to the ECU to prevent it from sensing a fault condition. The ECU measures relative readings between the 1st and 2nd O2 sensors to ensure that the cats are working, and converting CO to CO2.
They give a DC voltage output, which is relatively easily simulated.
In the 35HP fuek/air map we see exhaust temps that will kill a catalytic converter. At around 1800+F we would expect the cats to fail over a short time.

Our Stage1 tune, 25HP, reaches maximum exhaust temps of 1600F, same as the stock maps. It does get there sooner under load, and stay there more. This is still "cat safe" however.

If we adjust the fuel air to enrich at the 4000 to 6000 range we see better midrange power ( Mazda set it lean) but we see the exhaust temps rise more slowly on initial warmup, and suspect it would not be at full cat operating temp within the 5 minutes mandated in California. This map also results in slightly worse highway speed ( 60MPH) economy, but it is barely measurable.
If you want highway economy, drive below 4,000rpm.

DefBringer

canzoomer,

Once again, thank you for spending the time to explain everything thoroughly. I hope the mods can somehow put all your posts into an archive so you don't have to repeat any of this.

Earlier you mentioned a price of around $500 (USD) for the Stage1 device (not sure what to call it). For the Stage2, including O2 fooler and ignition timing maps, provided we supply our own midpipe, what kind of price are we looking at, roughly? Like many other people, I intend to get the Stage1 first, enjoy it, then move up to Stage2 later.

Also, I think we'd all love to see some sort of dyno graph/price breakdown of each Stage/part. Perhaps in the future when your website is going we can see something like this? :hint hint: :D

Lock & Load

CANZOOMER

As our rx8 here in oz are using a european version of the ECU and put out 177kw will your 1st stage system operate on our cars as effectively as yours and will you make them available to us .

Also could you go into a bit more detail as to the oil injection problem that you faced in your own car , and were was the 60 +NUMBER OF PROBLEM CARS SOURCED FROM .

Keep up the great work
thanks
michael

canzoomer

We will provide the Stage1 with one map.
It can be disabled with a 4 pole, 2 throw switch.
We will provide info on how to do this, but you will have to provide the switch, and cut and splice a couple of wires from our harness to use it.
If switching, the car must be turned off. To do otherwise will result in an ECU fault being recorded. To turn off the resulting check engine light it will be necessary to disconnect the battery.
To clear the fault from ECU memory you need the proper electronics diagnostics tools.
If you switch you must follow a procedure of letting the car idle for 5 minutes, then run gently for 5 minutes, then do a couple of WOT runs.
This is due to the fact that the ECU "learns" your driving style and the sensor responses dynamically, and must "re-learn"" when things are changed.

I guess if you want to leave the kit in, and just turn it off for emissions testing you could do this mod.

I would NOT leave it in when you take the car to the dealers. They might be unhappy..
Not for any legitimate reasons other than the fact that they frown on mods.

We are developing a multi-map setup, probably to be packaged with an Apexi FC2, but this is mostly aimed at those who are doing full blown exhaust mods, possibly running boost or NOS, and so on.
Until I get ceramic apex seals in my engine, and possibly rotors machined to reduce the compression ratio, this will not be explored any further.

Once I get my new engine installed the first step will be to take it down to RX-7 Specialties in Calgary where we will pull the engine, install the new apex seals, and re-install. I am a little nervous about the fact that the dealer who are R&Ring my engine have never SEEN an RX-8 until mine was brought in!

canzoomer

Around $750 for Stage2.
Lots of work to do. We need to get kits built, packed, and documents within 2 weeks. Once we have all that work done we will then get a bit fancier about presentation.

I plan on getting web pages with graphs, docs, and so on up by the time we are shipping.
Guess what I did today?
Sat here and worked on docs for 4 hours, while answering emails, and responding on the forums.

I need a life.
Or a clone..

DefBringer

Thanks for taking your time out to answer these questions. $750 sounds good.

Would it be possible to just get an Apex'i device for those who already know that they will definitely be moving up to Stage2 in the future? It might be cheaper than buying an entirely new unit. I guess I'll just wait things out and see what happens. :D