Psylence

How about coming up with a redone midpipe/cat section to go along with your re-map? I always like buying things as a set that work well together.. especially when I don't have the ability to remap the unit myself

Speed Racer

Canzoomer,
The performance gains you listed seem a little more conservative than before. I think that you mentioned that the more aggressive tuning would yield about a 50 Hp gain. Would you mind explaining the difference?

After reading this post it sounds like the performance gains could be categorized similar to this:

Stock exhaust + fuel controller 1 = 20-25 Hp
Aftermarket exhaust/cat + fuel controller 2 = 30-35 Hp
Aftermarket exhaust/cat + fuel/ignition controller = 50 Hp

Is this correct?

canzoomer

Precisely. We are shooting for economical versions with just fuel/air.

The cost with ignition mapping as well is a lot higher, and for the extra 10-15HP it gives, most people would not take it, I believe.

We are recommending the ignition route for those who ALSO want to do a full exhaust as I doubt we can make proper temperatures for the stock cats with both fuel/air and ignition timing.

IF Mazda had used a bit more expensive and larger front cat we could do a lot more, but they didn't so that is that.
Random Technology can fix that little issue for around $300
They make a darned good cat. I have used them for a few cars now.
email tech@randomtechnology.com if you want a quote or info. I have dealt with Dave and he knows his stuff..

canzoomer

Could do it.
I am hoping that Borla might take this up first, though!
If not, maybe email me.
It is not hard, as the pipe is almost straight, and flanged at both ends.

x28

Canzoomer, thanks for answer all my questions. Here is a few more I am wondering about and I hope it helps other readers as well.

RE Amemiya is a famous brand in japan, and they did a pretty good job tuning the RX7's, they are coming out wiht exhaust with the RX8 and if I use them along with your programs.... will they be able to stand the heat that its coming out of the engine?

I also understand from your previous posts that you are going to make versions for people that are going to supercharge or turbocharge their engines, is that still going to happen?

If I wanna get that supercharger, where can I find one that suits my RX8, and how do I know if its good for it?


Thanks a lot

YOU ROCK MAN... seriously
one of the most constructive/helpful members I have see so far!!
haha :D

wakeech

how the hell is he, an Albertan no less (), going to know how resiliant the RE Amemiya exhaust will be against these more normal exhaust temps?? unless you go with a cat-less exhaust, the mufflers ought to be fine from a higher-quality unit like an RE exhaust.

superchargers... hmm. i dunno kid, do your homework. find out all the advantages and disadvantages between the supercharger and turbo charger solutions for forced induction power... there are lots of things to consider, and in my estimation the turbo comes out way ahead.

not only that, but forced induction on the 6 port 10:1 compression "high-power" 13B-MSP is just the wrong thing to do. the 4 port motor would definitely be a better candidate for turbo tuning... blah, getting off topic.

in short, canzoomer can know only about what he's doing, what he's doing isn't the newest thing ever (but unbelievable work, and has earned my highest esteem forever...), the 13BMSP's emissions aren't going to melt the rear end of your car.

zoom44

just keep banging that into people's heads over and over andrew and eventually more than just me and buger will hear you

bureau13

Maybe, but I doubt it! At least for those of us in the US that means get an AT...bleah, I will never get an AT sports car unless...well, hopefully never. Given that most (maybe all, by definition) FI kits when available will go to enthusiasts, and most enthusiasts will select the manual transmission...

jds

artmt

I am sure there are. The question is: are there any good reasons?

As far as global effects of CO2 emissions go, even according to pessimistic estimates the effects will only be felt in very distant future (assuming that current consumption trends continue indefinitely). Given that it is highly implausible that our grandchildren will be driving gasoline-powered cars, the long term global effects of car emissions are hardly worth consideration.

For people who live in places like Los Angeles there are immediate local concerns, which I think are valid. But then why would drivers in rural Massachusetts have to comply with the same standards as the drivers in LA?

In addition, many of the regs are silly no matter how you look at it. For instance, why mandate life expectancy of the cats if they are already testing emissions?

RobDickinson

Damned right there is. Ever heard of things like Acid rain? Plauged us in Europe for quite some time, we changed, became more enviromentaly friendly, and fixed it.

We only have 1 planet, and at the moment - out of all the industrial 1st world countries, the US seem to be intent on wrecking it. Least you can do is observe what pathetic rules for its protection you have in place at the moment.

(appologies to all who are Canadian or European).

Psylence

Europeans sure do like that phony junk science don't they.. the kind that screams "the sky is falling" when climate changes paralell HISTORIC climate shifts...

RobDickinson

gods, 99% of the US ignoers the rest of the world and hopes reality goes away.

Only when things like 9/11 happen do they sit up and take notice.

And you wonder why people want to kill you. :/ Before 9/11 Us didnt have a foreign policy. Ditched kyoto, wanted to drill for oil in the artic etc etc. Not that any of that has changed tho, but now you have fresh oil reserves to destroy the planet with - and a decent excuse to hang the invasion of Iraq on (9/11 was NOTHING to do with Iraq).

Were feeling the affects of global warming already, with raising sea levels, changing climates etc, and thats only 1 effect of pollution, i've mentioned at least 1 other already. So whats phony?

Edit :- i forgot the stupid that makes everything O.K.

Gord96BRG

Dope. CO2 is not a controlled automobile emission, as in pollutant. Global warming concerns have absolutely NOTHING to do with catalytic converters and automotive emissions controls.

Perfect combustion of fuels results in CO2 and water. The only way to reduce CO2 output is to burn less fuel (ie ban gas guzzler trucks and SUVs, or tax the hell out of them).

Automobile exhaust pollutants that are controlled are hydrocarbons (HC), carbon monoxide (CO), and nitrogen oxides (NOx). THOSE are the products controlled by catalytic converters. They're nasty, and there is no reason to emit them when you don't need to.

Regards,
Gordon

MVCalypso

Sigh - this was a rather interesting thread about reverse engineering the ECU.

Could folks please take the arguments about environmental beliefs to a separate thread?

Dave

artmt

My main point is very relevant.
Canzoomer’s post suggests that he is basing his engineering decisions in part on what levels of emissions he thinks are acceptable.
Many of the popular assertions about emissions and environmental damage are made by people who passionately hold irrational beliefs and like to present end of the world prophecies and other such things as a matter of scientific fact. This kind of irrational attitudes is evident on this thread.

I certainly agree that this is not the place to discuss which of the relevant beliefs are true and which are false, but I think it is worth pointing out that when making engineering decisions popular assertions of this kind should be viewed skeptically.

Oh, and Rob, your country is better than mine.

wakeech

regardless that some environmental zealots are a little bonkers, car pollution is bad for anyone living in an urban area, and emission control is a necessity. smog warnings, with people dying during them are not exactly the kinds of man-made weather i'd like to have here in Vancouver.

because of the awesomeness of the RX-8's 3 way cat (Buger posted tons of stuff about it) emissions are stupidly close to zero: the problem with leaning out the fuel is that the Exhaust Gas Tempurature during hard running beats up on the cat, and in the LONG run (like 10 years down the road for emissions tests these cars have to make, or something??) the cat's life is shortened.

i think dicking with the ignition timing (using the squish effect and all that) isn't really good for emissions, but leaning it out won't be bad for it: less HC's the catalyst has to convert.

SpacerX

Concur. It occurs to me that there may be a tradeoff here WRT Canzoomer's efforts: won't leaning out the fuel delivery also increase fuel economy? The tradeoff, of course, being less ultimate cat life...

x28

Canzoomer or any other intellectuals out there!! haha please help me out a little more

Stock exhaust + fuel controller 1 = 20-25 Hp
Aftermarket exhaust/cat + fuel controller 2 = 30-35 Hp
Aftermarket exhaust/cat + fuel/ignition controller = 50 Hp

these are roughly the types of fuel controllers you are planning to make right Canzoomer? Then what is the difference between the first and the second fuel map? If I used Borla it will automatically add 10 hp to the car, and that will make the first fuel make of an increase of 30-35 hp... exactly the same as the second (I am guessing more expensive) fuel controller.

Or am I just getting this wrong?

djmano

canzoomer, first of all keep up the good work. all of us here on rx8club support you to take back our lost horsepower! i have a few quick questions, and one quick comment.

question: is there any ballpark figure for the cost of the fuel controller stage 1 or stage 2? is there a similar figure for the ignition controller? will this modification void the warranty?

comment: i subscribe to almost every major japanese magazine including option, rev speed, vipcar, fexe, etc. in a recent issue of option, i saw a picture of RE's owner tuning a rx-8 with a laptop. i cannot read japanese, therefore i cannot assume anything, but there were a few #s which interested me. the chart looked something akin to this

247 ps
255 ps
271 ps

i assume that these gains were from bolt-ons and tuning. if you can make a 50 hp gain, our 8's would be pushing out more horsepower than one tuned by arguably the world's best rotary man, AND they had more power to start with.

on a side note: You are driving dowwn the road when you get pulled over.
You have an aftermarket exhasut cat -back, and the tune kit installed.
So the officer, seeing you are a 19 year old asian, with a dyed haircut decides to impound your car.

if you take away the dyed haircut.....your pretty much describing me. down to the exact age.....no offense taken though.

wakeech

appreciate that we have no idea what kind of goals the tuner had in mind... canzoomer's estimation at 50 extra horsepower are probably attainable, but also that the first 10 were sort of tied up in the emissions modifications... anyways, canzoomer's quest for power takes him far beyond the kind of comprimises that RE might not be able to make to sell their package.

but make no doubt about it, anyone willing to comprimize enough could make over 300hp no problem on this car.

rxeightr

These compromises....are they only emissions related? emissions & reliability?

RobDickinson

Will be emmisions (long term), reliability and drivability.

Putting a rotary in a high state of tune means messing about with the ports which raises the idle speed and makes low RPM driving more hastle.

I know. But not because of emmisions. (and I'm nbo enviromental zealot either).

02SilverSiHB

Oh boy, thank God..I'm glad to see this...excuse me for not reading all 22 pages, but once I made my way to page 8 and 14 I saw how tuning this rx-8 motor is making some great gains. I'm am very happy to see this, I just wish Mazda had made it this way for us to begin with.

Omicron

ABSOLUTELY AWESOME work Zoomer, but back on page 8 you said the above quote. Could you elaborate on what the OTHER state is, besides California, that this mod (when available) would cause a failed emissions test?

Thanks...

wakeech

yeah, this is true. the P-port (perhipheral intake and exhaust ports) was the bane of the V8 back before wankels weren't allowed to do it because of a severe competitive advantage at most levels of racing. FIA still allows it for elite racing engines (i think) like the Le Mans winning R26B.