Official word from Mazda on dyno'ing RX-8
10-04-2003, 12:47 PM
#151
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Originally posted by SA22C
That's not a valid point. There are new RX-8s being shipped to the US every day. Mazda is still manufacturing them in Hiroshima. There is ample time to test and develop new maps for the cars coming off the assembly line and to reflash the cars that have already been sold. If canzoomer can tune the 8 and still maintain 48 state emissions compliance, then there is no reason why Mazda's engineers can't give the maps a tweak themselves.
That's not a valid point. There are new RX-8s being shipped to the US every day. Mazda is still manufacturing them in Hiroshima. There is ample time to test and develop new maps for the cars coming off the assembly line and to reflash the cars that have already been sold. If canzoomer can tune the 8 and still maintain 48 state emissions compliance, then there is no reason why Mazda's engineers can't give the maps a tweak themselves.
It is likely (not certain, we simply do not know, and are ONLY SPECULATING!) that Mazda had to use fuel and ignition settings in the ECU that have cost power and mileage.
It is probable that they did this to meet newer emisions specs, mainly in California.
It may be difficult, if not impossible to program the ECU to meet the more strict standards, such as in California, unless you severely de-tune the car.
Nothing has changed since the summer, and it may be that nothing will. In other words the RX-8 and the Renisis might only be capable of this power and economy level if it is legal for all North American jurisdictions.
They are certainly not complete idiots, and if it was a simple thing then they would have done it this summer.
The fact that they made the announcement very shortly after releasing the first cars from port indicates (at least to me) that they became aware of this problem quite some time prior.
As we have seen with other matters, like the oil light/oil pan problem, the Canadian floor mats, and so on, it takes Mazda at least a month to respond to anything, so they must have known about the ECU / emissions issue at least as early as when the cars first hit port.
Basically they have made three grave errors:
1) they tried to hide the problem when they should have been frank to the owners and dealers about it.
2) They lied about it.
They were forced to admit there was a problem, but again, instead of disclosure, they tried to use spin to minimize it. The claim of 238HP is pure bullshit. The fact that they will not comment about the mileage is further evidence to support this.
3) They stopped listening to the engineers who designed the car, and instead listened to the lawyers. The lawyers did not design these cars. If they did they would resemble Chevy Impalas.
Mazda gave me a nice brochure about the RX-8 when i first paid my deposit . In it they claim mileage figures that state:
City: 12.8l/100km
Highway: 9.2l/100km
NOBODY on this forum has managed to get even close to those figures. And some have tried as hard as they can, because they are desparate to do so to dfend their cars against their perceptions that some of us are "attacking" them.
If they started installing a new ECU code now, all owners would want it.
Add the cost of doing that to the cost for the buybacks, $500 rebates, their legal bills, and "free" service and it adds up to a lot of money.
More importantly it would be an admission that the problem was fixable in the first place, and they would be liable again for people to sue them successfully.
They have painted themselves into a very smelly corner.
Thank the lawyers.
It is now time for us all to show some sense and act with maturity.
The information I state above, while not proven, is the most likely scenario.
If you were totally unhappy you would have taken the buyback, and would not be on these forums any longer.
Instead of dwelling on the past, the rest of us now have two choices:
Live with it.
Fix it.
The good news is that it is "fixable".
When i made my final decision on the buyback, i reached this point:
"If I sell them the car back, I will have to buy another car. Every other car I have seen with similar or better performance and amenities and features will cost at least $6,000 more (Canadian).
What can i do to improve it for less than $6,000?
Will that make it as good or better than the alternative cars?"
The answer is obvious (to me anyway): YES!!
Some of you are applauding me for working on it.
Thanks, but let's be pragmatic:
When i made the decision, based on the reason i state above, I set my self a budget of $5K. That is a saving of $1K over the next alternative car i would have bought.
I decided that I was willing to spend up to $5,000 to keep the RX-8, get at least as good, and probably better power and mileage than originally stated, and to do so in a proper professionally installed fashion.
One can do quite a tidy bit with $5K on a car.
I am paying fuel and ignition timing, suspension components, and a blower. I am spending that much on parts and labour on my RX-8. I do not count my time and labour in the total.
Because I am a capitalist pig I also hope to get some payback by selling the fruits of my labours. That will hopefully pay for my work, and maybe pay for a bit more. I thnk that after all the time and attention on this, I owe my wife something too..
If I make a couple of $K on selling performance kits for RX-8's I will spend it on something nice for her, like a weekend in Vegas, or something equally pleasing to her.. It is only fair!
And I, for one, am happy to do so. Once all is said and done I think I will own a car that eats 350Z's, Subaru WRX STi's and Mitsubishi EVOs alive.
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
10-04-2003, 01:47 PM
#152
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Originally posted by SA22C
That's not a valid point. There are new RX-8s being shipped to the US every day. Mazda is still manufacturing them in Hiroshima. There is ample time to test and develop new maps for the cars coming off the assembly line and to reflash the cars that have already been sold. If canzoomer can tune the 8 and still maintain 48 state emissions compliance, then there is no reason why Mazda's engineers can't give the maps a tweak themselves.
That's not a valid point. There are new RX-8s being shipped to the US every day. Mazda is still manufacturing them in Hiroshima. There is ample time to test and develop new maps for the cars coming off the assembly line and to reflash the cars that have already been sold. If canzoomer can tune the 8 and still maintain 48 state emissions compliance, then there is no reason why Mazda's engineers can't give the maps a tweak themselves.
Do not forget that the US EPA testing process is very strict and the cars MUST pass emissions tests at 50,000 and 120,000 miles. To do this, the cats must last 120,000 miles and still be in good condition.
I believe the EPA's test also measures emissions performance immediately after startup. If a modified 8 doesn't have low enough emmissions levels just after startup, it would not pass teh test that Mazda has to put the cars through.
Brian
10-04-2003, 01:56 PM
#153
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Originally posted by canzoomer
When i made my final decision on the buyback, i reached this point:
"If I sell them the car back, I will have to buy another car. Every other car I have seen with similar or better performance and amenities and features will cost at least $6,000 more (Canadian).
What can i do to improve it for less than $6,000?
Will that make it as good or better than the alternative cars?"
The answer is obvious (to me anyway): YES!!
Some of you are applauding me for working on it.
When i made my final decision on the buyback, i reached this point:
"If I sell them the car back, I will have to buy another car. Every other car I have seen with similar or better performance and amenities and features will cost at least $6,000 more (Canadian).
What can i do to improve it for less than $6,000?
Will that make it as good or better than the alternative cars?"
The answer is obvious (to me anyway): YES!!
Some of you are applauding me for working on it.
i'm using this quote all over the place, from now on.
everyone is commending your work, i'm glad cooler heads prevailed.
10-04-2003, 05:09 PM
#154
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If you're able to pull this off...and every indication so far is that you will...I for one hope you become filthy stinking rich off of it. I don't yet have an 8, I've been ben of a mind to stick with my FD for the time being...but the more I read this thread the more I want one!
jds
jds
Originally posted by canzoomer
I thnk that after all the time and attention on this, I owe my wife something too..
If I make a couple of $K on selling performance kits for RX-8's I will spend it on something nice for her, like a weekend in Vegas, or something equally pleasing to her.. It is only fair!
And I, for one, am happy to do so. Once all is said and done I think I will own a car that eats 350Z's, Subaru WRX STi's and Mitsubishi EVOs alive.
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
I thnk that after all the time and attention on this, I owe my wife something too..
If I make a couple of $K on selling performance kits for RX-8's I will spend it on something nice for her, like a weekend in Vegas, or something equally pleasing to her.. It is only fair!
And I, for one, am happy to do so. Once all is said and done I think I will own a car that eats 350Z's, Subaru WRX STi's and Mitsubishi EVOs alive.
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
10-04-2003, 05:22 PM
#155
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Originally posted by wakeech
*gives canzoomer a big warm hug*
i'm using this quote all over the place, from now on.
everyone is commending your work, i'm glad cooler heads prevailed.
*gives canzoomer a big warm hug*
i'm using this quote all over the place, from now on.
everyone is commending your work, i'm glad cooler heads prevailed.
I am STILL P'ed off at Mazda. But, sometimes the best solution is to "go with the flow"..
As far as "work" goes, i admit I am having a LOT of fun doing this!
Zoomer...
10-05-2003, 02:05 AM
#158
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Once all is said and done I think I will own a car that eats 350Z's, Subaru WRX STi's and Mitsubishi EVOs alive.
Canz - sounds like you plan on seeing a good improvement in mileage too.
I'm getting goosebumps all.
10-05-2003, 10:05 PM
#159
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Canzoomer,
The progress that you have made so far is promising and the idea of a true plug-and-play piggy back unit is very appealing but this discussion has also got me thinking. What will happen if our cars do not match the way that yours has been setup up during all of this developement?
It sounds like your car is stock with the exception of the piggy back unit but with mine I already have a Borla cat back exhaust on order and also plan to add a cold air intake at somepoint in the future. Will the extra airflow cause the engine to run too lean with the fuel maps that you are developing? Inquiring minds want to know! :p
The progress that you have made so far is promising and the idea of a true plug-and-play piggy back unit is very appealing but this discussion has also got me thinking. What will happen if our cars do not match the way that yours has been setup up during all of this developement?
It sounds like your car is stock with the exception of the piggy back unit but with mine I already have a Borla cat back exhaust on order and also plan to add a cold air intake at somepoint in the future. Will the extra airflow cause the engine to run too lean with the fuel maps that you are developing? Inquiring minds want to know! :p
10-05-2003, 10:26 PM
#160
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Originally posted by canzoomer
Hell yes!
That IS the plan. We will be selling a bolt in fuel ( and maybe ignition, we will see) controller for the RX-8.
I expect to have them available by the end of October. I am not paying for all of this just for fun!
I have to get some money back on my investment.
Do you know what 100+ hours of dyno and tuning shop time costs??
The slowest item for our builds to come in are the connectors to allow you to just plug it in to your ECU's sockets.
We have to use matching male and female connectors to match the ECU, and then we run a harness out from that to the controller, which will be in an aluminum cast box.
Install will take about 15 minutes, as will removal.
We are targetting a fuel map setup like this to sell at around $1,000 and with ignition controller around $1500.
Late, we are contemplating a unit with multiple map capability for around $2,000 for the full kit.
If we manage to get enough numbers we could easily drop it down quite a bit, but for now I am basing numbers on 10 people buying it.
All prices stated are in Canadian dollars, so if you want US cost multiply by .75 ( $750, $1,125 and $1,500).
Taxes and freight extra. Shipping weight around 20 lbs.
With the multi-map setup we would provide at least 3 maps:
1) stock
2) NA tuned fuel and ignition.
3) boosted 6 lbs
Or something like this
We will also likely do a cat-back and mid pipe solution after that.
Feedback is welcome and definitely invited!
Hell yes!
That IS the plan. We will be selling a bolt in fuel ( and maybe ignition, we will see) controller for the RX-8.
I expect to have them available by the end of October. I am not paying for all of this just for fun!
I have to get some money back on my investment.
Do you know what 100+ hours of dyno and tuning shop time costs??
The slowest item for our builds to come in are the connectors to allow you to just plug it in to your ECU's sockets.
We have to use matching male and female connectors to match the ECU, and then we run a harness out from that to the controller, which will be in an aluminum cast box.
Install will take about 15 minutes, as will removal.
We are targetting a fuel map setup like this to sell at around $1,000 and with ignition controller around $1500.
Late, we are contemplating a unit with multiple map capability for around $2,000 for the full kit.
If we manage to get enough numbers we could easily drop it down quite a bit, but for now I am basing numbers on 10 people buying it.
All prices stated are in Canadian dollars, so if you want US cost multiply by .75 ( $750, $1,125 and $1,500).
Taxes and freight extra. Shipping weight around 20 lbs.
With the multi-map setup we would provide at least 3 maps:
1) stock
2) NA tuned fuel and ignition.
3) boosted 6 lbs
Or something like this
We will also likely do a cat-back and mid pipe solution after that.
Feedback is welcome and definitely invited!
Would you be willing to do a "trade-in" program for us early adopters? By that I mean, if we buy your fuel controller when it first comes out will we be able to send it back to you to be updated and/or reflashed when you release the fuel/ignition controller or the multi-map setup? Of course we would gladly pay the difference in price between the models.
It would be similar to the business model that Mike Valentine is using with the V1 radar locator. Hey, it may even give your products the same cult like following! :D
10-06-2003, 12:44 AM
#161
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First Shebam gonna pm ya I live in close to baltimore and these seem like easy installs so i would help ya out np.
Second Zoomer great work sign me up the moment its done.I could have at least 2 sales for you here tommorrow.
Third anyone wanna bet who retails first bolt on supercharger?
Second Zoomer great work sign me up the moment its done.I could have at least 2 sales for you here tommorrow.
Third anyone wanna bet who retails first bolt on supercharger?
10-06-2003, 02:10 AM
#162
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Originally posted by Speed Racer
Canzoomer,
Would you be willing to do a "trade-in" program for us early adopters? By that I mean, if we buy your fuel controller when it first comes out will we be able to send it back to you to be updated and/or reflashed when you release the fuel/ignition controller or the multi-map setup? Of course we would gladly pay the difference in price between the models.
Canzoomer,
Would you be willing to do a "trade-in" program for us early adopters? By that I mean, if we buy your fuel controller when it first comes out will we be able to send it back to you to be updated and/or reflashed when you release the fuel/ignition controller or the multi-map setup? Of course we would gladly pay the difference in price between the models.
Yes, I think we would do that.
I will talk it over with my collaborator, but I can't think of any reason why not.
10-06-2003, 11:18 AM
#164
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Originally posted by Sneakyracer
Canzzomer, you say you base your selling price on 10 people buying it!!?? If you get it done soon you will sell hundreds!:D
Canzzomer, you say you base your selling price on 10 people buying it!!?? If you get it done soon you will sell hundreds!:D
And maybe drop the price too..
However I will not count THAT chicken until it poops on my desk..
10-06-2003, 12:08 PM
#165
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Originally posted by canzoomer
Good! Then i could afford to buy more toys for my 8!
And maybe drop the price too..
However I will not count THAT chicken until it poops on my desk..
Good! Then i could afford to buy more toys for my 8!
And maybe drop the price too..
However I will not count THAT chicken until it poops on my desk..
BTW, 20lbs shipping weight ??? How much hardware are you stuffing in this thing?
10-06-2003, 01:21 PM
#166
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Yes, 20 lbs should be about right.
Fuel controller go in an aluminum case around 6" x 9" x 2"
With optional ignition controller we would either make a larger case (probably) about 2" wider, or in a second case about 4" x 5" x 2"
Both will go under the dash, and a wiring harness will be included.
It plugs in to the ECU in place of the original harness connections, then we provide a socket for the original to plug in to.
This is under the hood. The harness splits out the fuel and ignition and a few wires ( about 15 wires) to go through the firwall to under the dash. If you look behind the bottle for washer fluid there is a cover plate on a hole through the firewall. This is where the steering passes through on the Japan ( right hand drive) model.
With the Apexi computer it is designed to be mounted on or in front of your dash:
http://www.apexi.co.jp/products/electronics/super.html
Fuel controller go in an aluminum case around 6" x 9" x 2"
With optional ignition controller we would either make a larger case (probably) about 2" wider, or in a second case about 4" x 5" x 2"
Both will go under the dash, and a wiring harness will be included.
It plugs in to the ECU in place of the original harness connections, then we provide a socket for the original to plug in to.
This is under the hood. The harness splits out the fuel and ignition and a few wires ( about 15 wires) to go through the firwall to under the dash. If you look behind the bottle for washer fluid there is a cover plate on a hole through the firewall. This is where the steering passes through on the Japan ( right hand drive) model.
With the Apexi computer it is designed to be mounted on or in front of your dash:
http://www.apexi.co.jp/products/electronics/super.html
10-06-2003, 07:49 PM
#167
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info
I assume one can purchase just the $750 fuel controller if that is all the mods they want?.........I would be interested, and guess by your estimates you figure this will return the car to 247hp?.........always done the chip or filter mods, so not familiar with this...........is this a big process to get it installed?...does it do anything to the warranty?.......where did you get ahold of this controller?............thanks!
10-06-2003, 07:53 PM
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Canzoomer, I am in Edmonton as well, and with the info you have posted I am impressed..........my 8 does not come until Feb04, but I like the mod options you have looked into.........I think a friend of mine had a fuel controller on his 2003 Vette, but this was purchased after market..............just curious, have you worked on these things (car mods) for a while?.........
10-06-2003, 09:25 PM
#169
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Re: info
Originally posted by Broker73
I assume one can purchase just the $750 fuel controller if that is all the mods they want?.........I would be interested, and guess by your estimates you figure this will return the car to 247hp?.........always done the chip or filter mods, so not familiar with this...........is this a big process to get it installed?...does it do anything to the warranty?.......where did you get ahold of this controller?............thanks!
I assume one can purchase just the $750 fuel controller if that is all the mods they want?.........I would be interested, and guess by your estimates you figure this will return the car to 247hp?.........always done the chip or filter mods, so not familiar with this...........is this a big process to get it installed?...does it do anything to the warranty?.......where did you get ahold of this controller?............thanks!
It accomplishes 2/3 of the possible tuning gains, and at a reasonable price point. With fuel alone you will get at least the 247, and a bit more.
The ignition is for those who to get the most out of it, and don't mind spending more to get it.
In general one can do the fuel controller and leave the rest of the car quite stock and get very good results.
If one wanted the ignition kit too, it would make the most sense to also do the exhaust system and probably an intake.
While I have no test results to back this up yet, I believe that with fuel, ignition, exhaust system and intake, it is quite feasible to gain 50 to 60HP at the wheels.
However that means a car that is not emmissions legal, and would be quie a bit louder than stock.
Pretty well aimed at those who want to run on a track.
While I am sure there will be some who do this on the street, it is not "subtle" at that point.
As to getting it and installing it, we will be selling them in about 2 weeks, and the install is about a 30 minute job with wrenches and screwdrivers. The biggest work is routing the harness to under the dash. The work under the hood can be done in about 10 minutes.
As for my experience with this, i have owned a few cars, done a few mods, and so on. The people i am teaming with on this are in the business of performance tuning, and are a local dealer for Apexi, Greddy, Injen, Compeition Clutch, Fidenza Gears, Lightspeed Innovations, Evolution Lighting, Tein Suspension, Comp Electronics, and Nitrous Express.
The owner does mostly tuning and performance mods for their business, and have a fair bit of experience.
I mainly slelected them due to the fact that they are the local region Apexi dealer, and have had the Apexi training program. Apexi makes the best tuning items for the RX-7s, especially the Turbos.
10-07-2003, 12:16 PM
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How about simply changing the secondary injector?
http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.p...threadid=12287
Kind of easy, cheap and low-tech but from what I see it should work.
Ideas?
Vince
Kind of easy, cheap and low-tech but from what I see it should work.
Ideas?
Vince
10-07-2003, 06:36 PM
#172
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Re: How about simply changing the secondary injector?
Originally posted by compaddict
http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.p...threadid=12287
Kind of easy, cheap and low-tech but from what I see it should work.
Ideas?
Vince
http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.p...threadid=12287
Kind of easy, cheap and low-tech but from what I see it should work.
Ideas?
Vince
Unfortunately 4000 to around 5000 it actually runs a bit lean, then starts to get richer until around 6K when it is WAY too rich, and again boosts fuel at 7200
If you diminish the secondary you will run extremely lean 4K to 5K+
Not advisable..
10-07-2003, 09:20 PM
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Re: Re: Re: i hope the 8 is a miata
Originally posted by BillK
Actually the 8 really is lightweight, especially for a four door.
Now, start talking about cars like the BMW M3 that weighs around 3300 and the Audi S4 that weighs in at near 3900 lbs...
Actually the 8 really is lightweight, especially for a four door.
Now, start talking about cars like the BMW M3 that weighs around 3300 and the Audi S4 that weighs in at near 3900 lbs...
10-07-2003, 09:27 PM
#174
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Re: Re: How about simply changing the secondary injector?
Originally posted by canzoomer
Car uses secondary from about 4000 rpm and up.
Unfortunately 4000 to around 5000 it actually runs a bit lean, then starts to get richer until around 6K when it is WAY too rich, and again boosts fuel at 7200
If you diminish the secondary you will run extremely lean 4K to 5K+
Not advisable..
Car uses secondary from about 4000 rpm and up.
Unfortunately 4000 to around 5000 it actually runs a bit lean, then starts to get richer until around 6K when it is WAY too rich, and again boosts fuel at 7200
If you diminish the secondary you will run extremely lean 4K to 5K+
Not advisable..
10-07-2003, 09:50 PM
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Re: Re: How about simply changing the secondary injector?
Originally posted by canzoomer
Car uses secondary from about 4000 rpm and up.
Unfortunately 4000 to around 5000 it actually runs a bit lean, then starts to get richer until around 6K when it is WAY too rich, and again boosts fuel at 7200
If you diminish the secondary you will run extremely lean 4K to 5K+
Not advisable..
Car uses secondary from about 4000 rpm and up.
Unfortunately 4000 to around 5000 it actually runs a bit lean, then starts to get richer until around 6K when it is WAY too rich, and again boosts fuel at 7200
If you diminish the secondary you will run extremely lean 4K to 5K+
Not advisable..
From what I can see of the design and from the location of the secondary injector it looks like you wouldn't want it doing a whole lot until 5500-6000 (and kicking it up around 7000) RPM.
Basically Mazda is using three staged injection along with a three staged intake system and trying to make the transitions smooth.
I would guess that the secondary is just being tickled at mid RPM so that when it does start really contributing its effects are not as disruptive to the system.
Again, I'm guessing you have mapped (as best you can) what the sequence and contributing percentage of the three injectors are?
Curious in Auburn!
Vince