good_s

ok ,but anyway i used this info (self test graph) just for inventing simulator for self test check on swaped RX'8

RideAwry

Not sure if this video has been posted here or not, but it made my decision for me.

Pettit Racing Protek-R.

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

Yeah well that is the dumbest test ever and doesn't prove ****.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

I emailed Pettit about that test a while back, and while they were happy to discuss, they didn't really explain how it was supposed to make a difference when the oil is being burned intentionally, rather than just heat cycled.

ASH8

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RideAwry

Take what you will from it, as it obviously proves nothing for lubrication, but if the oil deteriorates under heat then so does the lubricating qualities it holds.

I had also had this thought... If it doesn't deteriorate under heat, how completely will it burn in the combustion chamber?
All I know is that the immediate change in Idemitsu didn't comfort me so much.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

So, what would be the lubrication difference between:

A) cool Idemitsu in the gasoline being injected into a very hot combustion chamber where it becomes ignited between 0.02 seconds and 0.2 seconds later and sees temperatures of at least 500F

B) cool Protek R in the gasoline being injected into a very hot combustion chamber where it becomes ignited between 0.02 seconds and 0.2 seconds later and sees temperatures of at least 500F

If their test was to show the breakdown of the oil that has to maintain lubrication for a period of time as it is heated up slowly, or even has to sustain higher temperatures, that would be one thing. But the 'lifespan' of a single drop of premix oil from the time it sees the heat till the time it has been consumed lasts no longer than 2/10ths of a second, and that's at idle, and that assumes that it even lasts a full revolution of a single face. That is the longest that it has to lubricate. At 9,000rpm, it's 2/100ths of a second for a single revolution of a face. The actual lifespan would be....1/3rd of that?


The test would have been far far more relevant if they took the different oils, mixed them with gasoline from the same source and then burned that quantity against a surface that they could then measure the amount of residue left behind.

You know, since that is actually what is happening to the oil.

Their test doesn't subject the oil to anything remotely relevant to what happens to premixed oil.

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

I don't take anything from it, it's a useless test. The color of different oils when heat is added means nothing. So then you think a dollar store brand 5W-20 oil protects just as well as Mobil1 0W-40 after 3,000 miles of use? Because I can assure both will look equally brown after 3,000 miles.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

other than reviewing dismantled engines that have used only one specific oil--i really dont know of a undisputable test for how one is better than another?

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

The only way to know what is beneficial or not would be to do actual scientific testing. Until that is done it's all guestimation. We know eliminating the factory OMP system is bad, yet some still swear premix is the answer. Old RX7 habits die hard. Guys are even putting renny's in FB's and blocking off the oil injectors and deleting the OMP.

Iluvrevs

Aren't the RX7 guys seeing better reliability even with the block off due to lower RPM versus the RENESIS which needs the purposeful injection of oil due to more heat/stress from the RPM increase?

ASH8

WOW, I have to agree...so what exactly are they trying to say that Protec will not caramelize (you don't eat it )...or burn off.

One would think you would want it to burn off otherwise what about fouled Spark Plugs (or poor firing).....

As any good pre-mix is meant to LUBRICATE metal Rotor Seals and Rotor Housing surface/face, then this weak "snake oil" marketing test just proves nothing.

Get 3 all new clean RENNY engines and run with these 3 pre-mixes over say 20,000 miles with identical measured 2 stroke oil in fuel ratio, and then pull engines apart to look see and measure tolerances and condition.

Anything else is sales talk.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

I personally don't recommend premix on an NA engine. Best wishes for your choices/decisions.

hoss -05

iTrader: (4)

I thought you use to be on the pre-mix bandwagon? Why do feel pre-mix on NA is a bad idea?

RideAwry

Then that's your opinion, and if you absolutely feel the need to express it then you can do so without being a complete dick about it.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Rideawry,

Got any challenge to the points I made?

bse50

2T oils are designed to lubricate while burning. How they deteriorate means little to nothing. They're not designed to last 3-4-6k miles.

I ran a test of almost a dozen 2t oils inside of a 125cc bike engine a while ago and dismantled and cleaned it every time i changed oil. There's a link to that test somewhere here. The number of deposits left behind is almost all that matters in our case.

RideAwry

Only that the oils in the test weren't really "heated up slowly" as they were placed onto a preheated surface and immediately experienced the 300+ degrees. Though as you stated it's obviously not as hot as the explosion in the combustion chamber.

I suppose either way, Idemitsu and Pettit's Protek-R have been used extendedly in racing applications by those reputable rotary specialists and likely are both more than sufficient for at least street and mild tracking.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Not as hot, PLUS it isn't measuring the change over the duration that is needed.

Measuring the breakdown of an oil over a couple of minutes when it's lifespan is no more than 2/10ths of a second is like trying to calculate the 10-year metal fatigue of a bullet that was just fired.

RideAwry

Perhaps send them an email requesting they do the test most relevant then?
I agree that flash-fire exposure to the oil and gas mixture would be most relevant to the circumstances, and I'd be interested in the results.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

I actually did that last October, this was the reply:
That's a snipped, the rest of the email was "justification" but wasn't even including anything about the test.

Note: I have no objection or problem with Pettit or people using Protek R as a premix. None. Just this test doesn't provide anything useful in the realm of using it as a premix, and shouldn't be used to tout the product.

ASH8

...

RideAwry

Well, if what they said is true and Pettit's oil did actually have less residue left than the others, then that's still reason enough for me.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Except they didn't flash burn it with gasoline at stichio.... nevermind.

You are making a fine choice. I'll stop trying to point out that you are just making it for the wrong reasons

RideAwry

Haha, I get what you're saying and don't disagree.
But less residue after being burnt is less residue after being burnt, even if the test was incomplete since it lacked gasoline. If anything, the gas should only burn the oil more completely and therefore leave even less residue than without it, correct?