CnnmnSchnpps

iTrader: (1)

Ooh that reminds me.. What's the typical shelf life for these oils (in fact, for engine oil in general?). In a sealed container that is... I'm sure it will go bad after some amount of months? years?

Jax_RX8

Easily a few years - likely much longer.

Unsealed 2-cycle, is only a few months - 4 cycle is longer, up to 1 year, as it has more anitoxidants as part of the additive package.

fahrfegneugen

Well, I tried reading most of this, but 46pgs is freakin long. However, I am probably getting an new engine soon and I want this one to last longer. So I am thinking about pre-mixing a little bit. Would anyone be interested in giving me a quick re cap of what has been said here, I would sure appreciate it.

swoope

iTrader: (5)

great write jax!!! wow. thanks for all the math.

i had no idea that mmo was that inexpensive.

now all we need is a borescope.

just for fun. if i venture into wally world i might pick up some mmo. and see if anything changes. the big quick thing would be mpg. as mine have been very consistent.

beers

Zephyrzone

It's pretty simple. I'm relatively new and I picked it up fairly quick (although I did read every page). A lot of what's been mentioned is redundant.

Bottom line seems to be this:

1)Definitely pre-mix. The Renesis doesn't provide enough lubrication plus it has the added problem of fast(er) carbon build-up.

2)Pick a premix that will lubricate AND clean your engine of carbon deposits. For instance, if you use a good JASO certified 2-stroke oil for premixing the engine will be lubed well but you're adding a substance which will likely make the carbon build up quicker.

3)The "final verdict" from the experts seems to be to either A) find 1 premix that is of good quality and provides lubrication AND cleaning for the engine (such as Marvel Mystery oil) *OR* combine two products such as FP Plus (cleaner) and Idemitsu Rotrary Premix (lubrication) in the proper quantities.

4)Lastly, don't use Lucas UCL with any other product, they don't seem to mix well.

As for me, I was using Idemitsu at 8oz per 13 gallon fill-up but felt that I was adding to the carbon buildup even though I was lubricating the engine well. I have since switched to MMO which, according to board experts such as Jax and others, provides good lubrication and cleaning. I will continue with this method at 6oz per 13 gallon fillup for quite some time.

If your OMP is working (meaning your burning oil at regular intervals) you need to add less premix. If your OMP is not working (you hardly ever burn oil) you need to add more premix. Mine works well so I'm dropping from 8oz of MMO to 6oz of MMO.

Can't think of anything else to add. Hopefully thats a helpful summary.

fahrfegneugen

That was awesome!, thank you, I will be doing it and I guess I will go with MMO.

robrecht

Nice summary, Zephyrzone.

MMO is preferred for those who want a simple one-step solution. There have been a few posts that strongly oppose MMO, but it seems that view has been pretty much defeated.

Personally, I'm going with Idemitsu (& FP Plus) because some feel it is a little better. Is that really true? If it is, how much better? I have no idea. But I am comforted by the fact that Idemitsu is designed for use in rotaries (wo OMPs BTW).

I also like being able to decrease the proportion of cleaner or change it. See above where Talan7 has a possible rotor seal failure and he used a cleaner once a month. Related? I don't know enough to say either way, but there seems to be minimal long-term experience and tear downs with the Renesis and specific premix regimens. I think Mazda specifically recommends against fuel additives so I'm a little wary.

Obviously, I'm no expert, so please correct me anyone if I'm speaking nonsense here. This morning was my first premix: 4 oz Idemitsu + 1 oz FP Plus and a working OMP.

sosonic

I would just use UCL+cleaners by themselves. I don't think Lucas or Lube Control FP need to be mixed with anything. They are already doing both jobs by itself. Plus this saves money and focus. You just buy Lucas or Lube Control FP.

Zephyrzone

Good suggestion. You could certainly do that too. I was premixing with just Lucas UCL for a while as well. I also understand that FP+ is a wonderful cleaner which is why Stealth and Swoope both use it in their "cocktails".

However, based on what I've read, those products are very good cleaners but not great lubricants, and our engine needs both. Honestly, IMHO, if your OMP is functioning I think you'd be fine with either of these alone. My OMP is working very well it seems...but I still want to ensure that I am both cleaning and lubricating the engine the best I can. I switched from Lucas UCL to Idemitsu to MMO. I love my car but I draw the line somewhere and I'm simply not going to keep bottles of premixed cocktails in my trunk (even though I believe that to be the ***best*** way).

After following this (and many other) threads for a year now and researching elsewhere on the web, I personally have settled on MMO @ 6oz per 13 gallon filliup. Jax, Swoope and RG's posts have all aided me in this design.

I feel that if you use UCL or FP+ alone you're way ahead of most 8 owners. But I feel that there are better options...and how far are you willing to go? Swoope and Stealth have a great cocktail it seems.

If MMO is good at both lubrication and cleansing- well- that's good enough for me. My car runs smooth as ever and I know it's being lubricated while also being cleansed with no negative effects. I hope this helps anyone who reads this thread. I feel I do very well at summarizing but the experts (Jax, Swoope, Stealth, Oldragger, MM and many others) deserve the credit for going through years of trial and error to help us all.

mysql

sure if I said it before, but here's what I'm doing now.

Sohn OMP adapter which has Idemitsu. So no burning of engine oil.

I also add 7 oz of premix with each fillup. The premix is:

- 4 oz of Idemitsu (Since the centers of our seals do not get enough lubrication, rectified in 2009 RX-8's with an additional center OMP nozzle).

- 2 oz of FP+

- 1 oz of MMO

Jax_RX8

^^^^^ - A little of the best of everything. I would also note for others, that mySQL is turbo'd, so his premix requirement will be a little higher than a NA engine.

On all the other "summary" posts above - all seem to be accurate and good summary of options.

I think the takeaway is there are several very good products and possibilities for everyone to consider to pick their premix choice, the key that was stated above is to add some extra lube and cleaning and this will increase to performance and life of your 8 over the long haul.

Daemos

Jax:
MMO is unavailble in major cities in Canada, so finding it is impossible for me, would this combo work?

I have lots of Idemitsu Premix at home would I be able to combine that (4oz) with something like Redline SI-1 (2oz) per tank?

Jax_RX8

I think that would work well - if you try it, let us know your results

fahrfegneugen

Anyone hear anything about how ethanol is affecting the lubrication of our engines? I had someone mention this to me the other day.

Jax_RX8

Yes, ethanol acts like another solvent - it adds to cleaning which is good, but does reduce the oil films.

While not as big a deal for piston engines, the reduced oil film is a big deal for rotary's. If you are in an area that requires the use of E10 (10% ethanol/90% gasoline), this increases anyones argument to premix.

I am fortunate enough to live in a county that does not require it, but the county above me (on my commute) does. Also, some of the local stations have started selling it anyways - I do avoid it like the plague for my 8 not only because of the reduced oil film impacts, but also because you will see 2-3 mpg drop using E10 due to the less energy content Ethanol has compared to gas.

fahrfegneugen

Thanks for the info. I will be avoiding it then

robrecht

So, New Yorker, for how long, how often, how much, and what kind of premix have you've been using?

It sounds like maybe you've actually been using some kind of solvent as a fuel injection cleaner on a regular basis. Are you concerned that this might be damaging the oil films inside the combustion chanmber, perhaps compromizing the effectiveness of your OMP in lubricating your apex seals and other internals?

I always thought that you were a stickler for following Mazda's recommendations, eg, "Never add fuel system additives. Never add cleaning agents other than those specificied by Mazda. Other cleaning agents and additives may damage the system." What kind of fuel system additive has Mazda recommended?

New Yorker

I've never used premix. Ever. Thought about it while reading this thread, despite the fact that Renesis reliability—as reported in Consumer Reports and long-term, 40,000+ mile road tests in Car and Driver, Road & Track and others—is average or better, compared to other engines. And despite the fact that my car runs perfectly (no loss of power, no poor idling, etc.), and always has. I was prepared to try Idemitsu premix until I wrote Idemitsu and they recommended against using their own product for a non-raced, fully stock RX-8.

I add a bottle of Techron Fuel Injection Cleaner every 7,500 miles so no, I'm not concerned about damaging anything; Techron is a highly-regarded product, without issue, recommended by many auto journalists—and besides, one bottle every 7,500 miles ain't gonna damage nothin'.
Sorry, but you "thought" wrong. As far as following Mazda's recommendations are concerned, no, I've never been a "stickler" about that; I installed RB oil cooler and radiator screens, despite the fact that they're not a Mazda accessory. Will the screens impede air flow, causing the engine to run a bit hotter? Possibly, though I don't believe the difference will be significant. And if it turns out the screens do make my engine run too hot, well, that was my decision and the chance I take. Oil is a different matter. I've owned many cars and I've always used synthetic oil. Always. But while ALL manufacturers have a blanket recommendation against non-OEM parts—they want you to buy their parts and, understandably, they can't possibly test every non-OEM part to see if it has an adverse affect on their car—never before have I had a manufacturer specifically recommend against using synthetic oil. Never. That tells me something. Do I think synthetic is "bad" for the engine? No, it's probably fine. But I figure why take chances? Besides, since I change the oil every 3 months/3K miles, it's kind of a moot point for me.

I have no problem with 5W-20 either; I've researched it and I believe the people who feel oil technology has now evolved to the point where 5W-20 can 1) help my engine run better during the critical start-up from cold, 2) increase mileage slightly, and 3) fully protect my engine. I know everyone here thinks that's impossible, but hey, motor oils have gradually been getting thinner for years; 5W-20 is simply the latest result of improved oil/engine technology. Ten years from now people will be warning about staying with 5W-20, saying the new oil that's out then—whatever it is—is too thin and can't possibly protect your engine.
(Also, I find it hard to believe that Mazda would recommend a grade of oil that would compromise the reliability of the Renesis, particularly when Mazda knew that, coming on the heels of the last RX-7, reliability of the new rotary car—possibly the last chance they'd have to make one—would be under careful scrutiny by the automotive press. What's more, if Mazda came to believe that 5W-20 was, in fact, not the best oil for the car, they could've changed the recommendation the next model year. But they didn't.)

So no, I wouldn't say I'm a "stickler" for following Mazda's recommendations; I just do my homework, search reliable sources, and use my head. If Renesis reliability was, in fact, suspect in published long-term road tests and Consumer Reports, I'd probably pre-mix. But it isn't, and I don't. I believe a well-maintained (oil checked regularly, oil changed regularly, oil level never gets too low, engine always warmed up before winding it, rev high regularly, etc.), non-raced, non-modded RX-8 running non-synthetic 5W-20 will be more or less as problem-free as other cars—and will last about as long.

If Mazda really believed premix would help extend the life of the Renesis—their pride & joy, and the very thing that defines the company—they could've suggested it themselves. Just like they carefully spell out what must seem like an incredibly complicated, pain-in-the-*** procedure (to the vast majority of owners) for turning off a cold engine to avoid flooding. Compared to that, adding premix would seem like a piece of cake.

rotaryPilot

Mazda has made a lot of mistakes with the renesis engine and they try to correct those by issuing recalls and TSBs. So the first RX-8s of 2003-2004-2005 had different oil pump than those of 2006-2007-2008. This is because Mazda recognized its mistake and fixed it by providing more oil pressure with the new oil pumps and by flashing a new program that will inject more oil through out the omp. What about the 2003 through 2005 cars with old oil pump? Did Mazda issued a recall to change the oil pumps? No ...So do not be surprise if a new TSB will come that Mazda will recommend premix. I guess then it would be late to start using premix in your car.

Mazda performs serious research but they do make mistakes. Do take for granted everything that Mazda says for your maintenance of your renesis. What else can you do? Just listen to people with many years in wankel engines

robrecht

Other than the fact that you use it less frequently, how does your fuel injector cleaner differ from the cleaners that are being recommended here to help prevent carbon build-up?

New Yorker

You don't understand the difference!? Here, let me try to explain it to you: "premix," as the term is being used in this thread, is something you add to the fuel tank before every fill-up. That's not how Techron is used, nor is it how Techron was meant to be used. And premix, as the term is being used in this thread, is not just a cleaner, but also a lubricant, if not primarily a lubricant. I don't believe people consider Techron a lubricant, and I don't believe adding a bottle every 7,500 miles is considered "premixing" as it's being discussed here.

Get it?

robrecht

Of course I understand the difference but that's not the question I was asking you. On the previous page, when a couple of people started mentioning just using a cleaner like FP+ (without any 2-stroke oil like Idemitsu) as a premix, I started wondering exactly how some of these cleaners differed from each other so I was wondering which cleaner you were usung and how frequently and if you unerstood how yours differed from something like FP+. I'm no expert but I'm guessing Techron may contain more solvents than what some are describing here as lubricious cleaners. By the way, some use Techron as a less frequent higher dose shock treatment like you but many people use it at a much smaller dose in every tank, eg, Chevron and Texaco.

New Yorker

Okay, I see what you were getting at. I'm no expert either; I dump in one dose of Techron (a whole bottle, 16 oz??) about every 7,500 miles simply because that's how Techron recommends using their product. Plus, over the years, I've heard a lot of good things about Techron from sources I trust. Don't know about other cleaners like FP+, but since I only do this very infrequently, which cleaner I use is probably not as critical for me as it is to you guys, who add something to every tank.

AJ's Shinka

Is this the stuff you are referring to? http://www.chevron.com/products/ourf...tives/tcp.aspx

You think it would be okay to add it to my tank with Idemitsu in it? I don't see a problem.

New Yorker

That's Techron Concentrate Plus, which I've been meaning to try; I think I've only used their Pro-Gard, which just cleans the fuel injectors. (And which, I see, you can use every 1,000 miles).

I don't have the knowledge to answer your question about Idemitsu. (But if it was my car, I'd go ahead and use it. I'd bet that something you use very infrequently wouldn't hurt anything.)