Confirmed : NYCGPS's Motor is dead~
04-03-2009, 06:17 PM
#76
Certified Mazda Tech
MPG simply takes too long to determine and varies too easily to have any use in a technical diagnosis.
Now if you do all your own work to your own car then yes noticing your MPG is always low and going lower would be helpful in the search for a problem. As a tech who can testdrive your car only long enough to burn a few gallons, maybe, MPG is irrelevant to me.
So the problem is more in the fact that i, as a tech, cannot reproduce a MPG concern without wasting time or blindly believing the customer. There are much better things that can be done in a much shorter amount of time.
Also this case is different because he obviously knows his car but most people have no idea that MPG may equal a blown motor...people drive in on blown motors that are knocking to high hell and think it's like a loose belt.
We had a miata 2 days ago that was DRIVEN IN by the customer, we went outside to start it and bring it in and the rod went thru the block as soon as it was started. Can you imagine the sound as he was driving it a full 50 miles to the dealer? He somehow thought it was his clutch.
kevin.
edit: i believe this came across as rude, I apologize, I'm just trying to give you the other side of the counter kind of thing. I completely understand your POV as a customer and simply wish everyone knew how the technician really lives. Diagnostics are VERY difficult, not just because you have to find the problem, but because you need to take specific steps, document why you did it and what the result was AND make sure it's in a way that 3-6 months from now when mazda is reviewing it they will understand. Some steps are useless but necessary from a technical viewpoint, we have to look at and record so many factors/variables and take so many outside world things into account that we have to eliminate anything that would slow us down.
Last edited by teknics; 04-03-2009 at 06:21 PM.
04-03-2009, 06:17 PM
#77
Registered
Talk to StealthTL on the that one. I was quickly convinced by BDC of the fact that pretty much any premix is better than none. Pretty sure most of his experience has been with older rotaries.
04-03-2009, 06:22 PM
#78
Registered
Yes, but as a tech im not spending a whole week driving your car to monitor your fuel mileage and I cannot openly/willingly believe you when you say you drive conservative. Everyone's definition of conservative is different.
MPG simply takes too long to determine and varies too easily to have any use in a technical diagnosis.
Now if you do all your own work to your own car then yes noticing your MPG is always low and going lower would be helpful in the search for a problem. As a tech who can testdrive your car only long enough to burn a few gallons, maybe, MPG is irrelevant to me.
So the problem is more in the fact that i, as a tech, cannot reproduce a MPG concern without wasting time or blindly believing the customer. There are much better things that can be done in a much shorter amount of time.
Also this case is different because he obviously knows his car but most people have no idea that MPG may equal a blown motor...people drive in on blown motors that are knocking to high hell and think it's like a loose belt.
We had a miata 2 days ago that was DRIVEN IN by the customer, we went outside to start it and bring it in and the rod went thru the block as soon as it was started. Can you imagine the sound as he was driving it a full 50 miles to the dealer? He somehow thought it was his clutch.
kevin.
MPG simply takes too long to determine and varies too easily to have any use in a technical diagnosis.
Now if you do all your own work to your own car then yes noticing your MPG is always low and going lower would be helpful in the search for a problem. As a tech who can testdrive your car only long enough to burn a few gallons, maybe, MPG is irrelevant to me.
So the problem is more in the fact that i, as a tech, cannot reproduce a MPG concern without wasting time or blindly believing the customer. There are much better things that can be done in a much shorter amount of time.
Also this case is different because he obviously knows his car but most people have no idea that MPG may equal a blown motor...people drive in on blown motors that are knocking to high hell and think it's like a loose belt.
We had a miata 2 days ago that was DRIVEN IN by the customer, we went outside to start it and bring it in and the rod went thru the block as soon as it was started. Can you imagine the sound as he was driving it a full 50 miles to the dealer? He somehow thought it was his clutch.
kevin.
04-03-2009, 06:39 PM
#79
Certified Mazda Tech
Of course. I'm not suggesting that a tech would be expected to always take someone's word for it or drive the car around for a few weeks. But isn't there any kind of diagnostic that could be more sensitive to this kind of wear? Or if your earlier compression tests showed low compression, maybe Mazda's threshhold is just too low?
Talk to StealthTL on the that one. I was quickly convinced by BDC of the fact that pretty much any premix is better than none. Pretty sure most of his experience has been with older rotaries.
kevin.
04-03-2009, 06:57 PM
#80
Registered
04-03-2009, 07:30 PM
#81
Certified Mazda Tech
04-03-2009, 10:29 PM
#82
But in reality you don't know jack. Just admit that synthetic offers no more protection and neither does premixing in a daily driver. I'm just bustin' your ***** because you were so adamant that premixing and using synthetic would allow your motor to run long into the future.
I know that Mazda's OMP is just a way to generate sales, cuz seriously most people wouldnt want this car if u ask them to "check & add 2 stroke oil" every couple hundred miles or so. Most people wouldnt even remember and the result is they gonna fuxk the motor up. then what will happen next? they gonna blame Mazda for making such motor. Not themselves.
Again, people said Im wasting my money on Organic Food, but for some reason Organic food taste better. try some conventional celery vs organic celery. u can tell the difference right away. and organic food is more healthy for you. You dont buy the idea? too bad.
I believe he has always premixed and because I know people who have premixed since day one and still had engine failures. I'm no expert though. I think for track duty, the more lubrication the better due to the extreme conditions. My only point is that synthetic oil and premixing have proved to be a huge waste of money IMO.
No, he said he didn't start premixing until sometime in the 3rd year, when he was already only getting 150-160 miles per tank. I think most of the wear took place before then. Failure didn't happen until after he stopped premixing. If it helps for the track, why wouldn't it be helpful for daily driving?
oh the results? **** poor mpg (I kept thinking its the motor mount, get not ?)
I think I took a picture of my 120 miles ... not sure if its on my old phone or the new phone. I have to find it.
Also about premixing, if you're not premixing you're asking for a blown motor. You'd think you guys would research the things the previous rotary communities have proven.
Look for pics of a rotor housing that used only the stock OMP with say 40k miles on it, then look at a pic of a rotor housing which was fully premixed every tank with 40k miles on it. The difference in corrosion, carbon, and overall condition of the rotor housing surface has SEVERE differences. The OMP and oil injection system as a whole is a bandaid created by Mazda to prevent having to make everyone premix. No one would buy a brand new car that needed you to put oil in it every fillup.
Nevermind the fact that the OMP is dumping dirty oil into your motor.
And on that topic, why do most rx8 guys buy fancy premix? Idemitsu etc etc. You can use ANY 2 stroke oil which is TCW3 rated...hell most gas stations have it available. There is no need for a "special" premix, as long as it's TCW3 rated.
seriously guys, you should go research these topics from the old 13b motors, there are some very indepth analysis on lots of subjects that seem to be foggy around here.
kevin.
Look for pics of a rotor housing that used only the stock OMP with say 40k miles on it, then look at a pic of a rotor housing which was fully premixed every tank with 40k miles on it. The difference in corrosion, carbon, and overall condition of the rotor housing surface has SEVERE differences. The OMP and oil injection system as a whole is a bandaid created by Mazda to prevent having to make everyone premix. No one would buy a brand new car that needed you to put oil in it every fillup.
Nevermind the fact that the OMP is dumping dirty oil into your motor.
And on that topic, why do most rx8 guys buy fancy premix? Idemitsu etc etc. You can use ANY 2 stroke oil which is TCW3 rated...hell most gas stations have it available. There is no need for a "special" premix, as long as it's TCW3 rated.
seriously guys, you should go research these topics from the old 13b motors, there are some very indepth analysis on lots of subjects that seem to be foggy around here.
kevin.
See...it's somewhat difficult to explain on the internet and you seem like someone who'd be good to have a personal discussion with on the topic so I could diagram and explain things better. But basically from the time your motor is built until the day it blows up compression is always falling (well actually after the first 1,000 or so miles as rotary motors start with low compression, build it up after break-in and then it begins lowering). However there is no way to predict a "spec" of common compression loss. Each motor will wear differently. Your motor could fall from 9.3kgf/cm2 to 7.8 kgf/cm2 and you'd be like "**** my motor is on the way out", then 2 years later it could still be at 7.8kgf/cm2. It's simply hard to predict, the apex seals and housing surface and constantly interacting and losing material (barely measurable, yet unpreventable), every now and then it finds a sweet spot where it will stay for a while until something effects it (be it carbon, bad gas, etc). If anything mazda's threshold is high, i believe the FD's spec was in the 6's for it's compression (i could be wrong). You could drive an rx8 with 5.0kgf/cm2 on all 6 rotor faces and while you'd be slow it could still function normally. Like I said, diagnostics are tricky and require you to take hundreds of variables into account.
Yea i know BDC from a long time back now. The whole pre-rx8 community basically understands that premix = safety. Even with a fully operational brand new OMP system damage is occuring in your motor that can be prevented. I never did and never will understand buying Idemitsu (etc etc) brand "rotary premix"...they're all just TCW3 rated 2-stroke oil. I use castrol which is available almost anywhere for a fair price (right now it's cheap, did get pricey when oil was $120+ a barrel) in my 500+hp s5 13bt, and my 400+hp 13brew rotaries and when torn down they have a nice shiny surface. My FD has a nearly brand new OMP system and I still add 1 oz of premix per gallon of gas when filling up.
kevin.
kevin.
Last edited by nycgps; 04-03-2009 at 10:34 PM.
04-03-2009, 10:34 PM
#83
just to clear up something in my last post, there's no "leading" apex seal, i was talking about the tips of the rotor and its faces. each "face" is contained by two apex seals. the one on the bottom of the face is that chambers leading apex, the one above it is that face's trailing apex.
As for MPG, I have driven my evo 9 hard enough to go down to 15mpg and have cruised calmly enough to get 30mpg (more then once) the car's rating is like 22mpg highway.
Fuel mileage changes based on so many different factors that its hardly useful information in a technical diagnostic. Hell just using a different gas station can effect it. Nevermind the fact that as far as I know, the mileage wasn't mentioned (no one ever said it to me at least) so it wasn't even looked at.
After the first compression test results I was pretty sure that we were experiencing a sticking seal internally, stalling was random, hard start (while it was in my possession) wasn't an *everytime* thing, i could recreate it but not 100%.
In all honesty I've still never made it stall while test driving it, i can force it to stall since i know it's a compression problem but otherwise it never "just happened" to me, again making diagnostics difficult.
mazda's spec for engine compression cutoff is 7.0kgf/cm2 (kpa x 100) per face at 250rpm. Most new motors will start in the high 9's as an average. Considering last test he was in mid 7's the motor was close but i had no idea what his compression was a few months before, so going off one data point which is above spec I diaged the motor as being low, but good.
6 months later dropping ~2kgf/cm2 may SEEM serious but that is ~.3kgf/cm2(300kpa) a month on the one face. Also he stated himself the problem got progressively worse. That alone proves it isn't a catastrophic failure, but a wear issue instead. In a rotary a catastrophic failure (aka a sudden serious failure) is very noticeable. Car will take forever to start, feeling flooded at all times, car will drive but have no lowend power and be rough as hell, it'll smooth out in the higher rpms but will produce no real torque to keep you going.
His car/engine drove fine, there was a slight lack in low-end but 99% of the people here wouldnt have noticed it at all.
I mean you guys can just keep going with the catastrophic failure, bad oil, bla bla bla stuff. But I'm just letting you know how/what it is. This is not the result of any seals breaking, this most likely is simply an excessively worn apex seal which, given his history of stalling since he first bought the car, was possibly barely within spec when originally used and therefore wore quicker. In reality it could even simply be an apex seal spring flattening enough to prevent good contact between the housing and the seal.
Basically it's something simply falling out of spec, NOT something actually breaking. Yes the timeline may seem drastic but you have to look at the whole picture, and you need to understand once a part reaches it's spec limit the timeline will shorten and things will get worse quicker because you now have a faulty assembly.
As for MPG, I have driven my evo 9 hard enough to go down to 15mpg and have cruised calmly enough to get 30mpg (more then once) the car's rating is like 22mpg highway.
Fuel mileage changes based on so many different factors that its hardly useful information in a technical diagnostic. Hell just using a different gas station can effect it. Nevermind the fact that as far as I know, the mileage wasn't mentioned (no one ever said it to me at least) so it wasn't even looked at.
After the first compression test results I was pretty sure that we were experiencing a sticking seal internally, stalling was random, hard start (while it was in my possession) wasn't an *everytime* thing, i could recreate it but not 100%.
In all honesty I've still never made it stall while test driving it, i can force it to stall since i know it's a compression problem but otherwise it never "just happened" to me, again making diagnostics difficult.
mazda's spec for engine compression cutoff is 7.0kgf/cm2 (kpa x 100) per face at 250rpm. Most new motors will start in the high 9's as an average. Considering last test he was in mid 7's the motor was close but i had no idea what his compression was a few months before, so going off one data point which is above spec I diaged the motor as being low, but good.
6 months later dropping ~2kgf/cm2 may SEEM serious but that is ~.3kgf/cm2(300kpa) a month on the one face. Also he stated himself the problem got progressively worse. That alone proves it isn't a catastrophic failure, but a wear issue instead. In a rotary a catastrophic failure (aka a sudden serious failure) is very noticeable. Car will take forever to start, feeling flooded at all times, car will drive but have no lowend power and be rough as hell, it'll smooth out in the higher rpms but will produce no real torque to keep you going.
His car/engine drove fine, there was a slight lack in low-end but 99% of the people here wouldnt have noticed it at all.
I mean you guys can just keep going with the catastrophic failure, bad oil, bla bla bla stuff. But I'm just letting you know how/what it is. This is not the result of any seals breaking, this most likely is simply an excessively worn apex seal which, given his history of stalling since he first bought the car, was possibly barely within spec when originally used and therefore wore quicker. In reality it could even simply be an apex seal spring flattening enough to prevent good contact between the housing and the seal.
Basically it's something simply falling out of spec, NOT something actually breaking. Yes the timeline may seem drastic but you have to look at the whole picture, and you need to understand once a part reaches it's spec limit the timeline will shorten and things will get worse quicker because you now have a faulty assembly.
In other news, messed with the trans today a bit, unfortunately i won't get to authorize anything until monday as when i last spoke with tech line they needed me to check a few more things and they arent open on saturdays, so monday I'll relay them the necessary info and we will go from there. I'm sure I'll be receiving a visit from a regional rep about this RO.
kevin.
kevin.
04-03-2009, 11:09 PM
#85
Certified Mazda Tech
a 1 on 1 comparison of two different owners cars in different environments is a useless comparison....IMHO. oh and of course all oils would have to be spec'ed before being put in the motors since oil viscosities has irregularities. As well as making sure all filters are inspected and fully spec to be 100% to spec. You'd also have to build the motors yourself ensuring all the same tolerances are being used on all motors and the assembly procedure must be identical on all motors.
kevin.
Last edited by teknics; 04-03-2009 at 11:12 PM.
04-03-2009, 11:09 PM
#86
Super Moderator
Mileage : 49.3 K
Yeah yeah I know people gonna be like "Synthetic oil killed it!" but All I can say is even regular oil-engine gets low compression. so dont even try to blame it on Synthetic oil !
I guess the failure has a lot to do with "early" OMP rate, too low (or maybe some faulty parts)
Too bad there is no way to know what is wrong inside. Maybe we can "leave a mark" somewhere on the old motor so if Sleepy-Z sees it at his plant he can tell us ? LOL
Yeah yeah I know people gonna be like "Synthetic oil killed it!" but All I can say is even regular oil-engine gets low compression. so dont even try to blame it on Synthetic oil !
I guess the failure has a lot to do with "early" OMP rate, too low (or maybe some faulty parts)
Too bad there is no way to know what is wrong inside. Maybe we can "leave a mark" somewhere on the old motor so if Sleepy-Z sees it at his plant he can tell us ? LOL
Personally I think the MOP design (as in two corner shooting) nozzle set up is fundamentally flawed and no matter how much oil is supplied to these two nozzles it just can't or won't lubricate the center of the Apex Seal, so you get this middle wearing of the Apex Seal which in time become Concave on seal face.
Rebuilt engines will only repeat the same outcome.
IMO the only way to help prevent early Apex Seal wear/failure is to Pre-Mix, with higher rates than what I even thought was enough..
I am thinking 8 Ounces per Tank full of gas or 4 mils per litre.
04-03-2009, 11:14 PM
#87
Certified Mazda Tech
Sorry to hear this mate...
Personally I think the MOP design (as in two corner shooting) nozzle set up is fundamentally flawed and no matter how much oil is supplied to these two nozzles it just can't or won't lubricate the center of the Apex Seal, so you get this middle wearing of the Apex Seal which in time become Concave on seal face.
Rebuilt engines will only repeat the same outcome.
IMO the only way to help prevent early Apex Seal wear/failure is to Pre-Mix, with higher rates than what I even thought was enough..
I am thinking 8 Ounces per Tank full of gas or 4 mils per litre.
Personally I think the MOP design (as in two corner shooting) nozzle set up is fundamentally flawed and no matter how much oil is supplied to these two nozzles it just can't or won't lubricate the center of the Apex Seal, so you get this middle wearing of the Apex Seal which in time become Concave on seal face.
Rebuilt engines will only repeat the same outcome.
IMO the only way to help prevent early Apex Seal wear/failure is to Pre-Mix, with higher rates than what I even thought was enough..
I am thinking 8 Ounces per Tank full of gas or 4 mils per litre.
couldn't have said it better myself sir. The OMP/MOP system is a bandaid system and doesn't provide the necessary lubrication to the motor. It is PROVEN/KNOWN since basically the rotary 'mass production/regular citizen" engine was born.
Personally i do 1 oz per 1 gallon of gas, only because its quicker to measure in my head. There are ZERO bad aspects of premixing, none at all. The oil does NOT BURN and therefore you can even pass smog running premix.
kevin.
04-03-2009, 11:18 PM
#88
Super Moderator
Like to add here, with the latest Series II RENESIS's there has been NO changes in ANY of the Internal parts (Rotors, Apex Seals, Corner, Oil or Side Seals or their Springs)...NO Change.
Only the Extra Center (Leading) Oil Nozzle and the two Electric OMP's, one pump only supplies the New Leading Nozzles, the other the 4 Trailing Nozzles.
Only the Extra Center (Leading) Oil Nozzle and the two Electric OMP's, one pump only supplies the New Leading Nozzles, the other the 4 Trailing Nozzles.
Last edited by ASH8; 07-18-2009 at 11:21 PM.
04-03-2009, 11:25 PM
#90
Super Moderator
EVERYONE LISTEN TO WHAT HE SAID.
couldn't have said it better myself sir. The OMP/MOP system is a bandaid system and doesn't provide the necessary lubrication to the motor. It is PROVEN/KNOWN since basically the rotary 'mass production/regular citizen" engine was born.
Personally i do 1 oz per 1 gallon of gas, only because its quicker to measure in my head. There are ZERO bad aspects of premixing, none at all. The oil does NOT BURN and therefore you can even pass smog running premix.
kevin.
couldn't have said it better myself sir. The OMP/MOP system is a bandaid system and doesn't provide the necessary lubrication to the motor. It is PROVEN/KNOWN since basically the rotary 'mass production/regular citizen" engine was born.
Personally i do 1 oz per 1 gallon of gas, only because its quicker to measure in my head. There are ZERO bad aspects of premixing, none at all. The oil does NOT BURN and therefore you can even pass smog running premix.
kevin.
So You are putting in 16 OZ per Tank Full?!!, have you disconnected your MOP?..
Glad someone agrees with me that the S1 Renny is fundamentally flawed in the MOP department, I am even pre mixing with my S2 RX-8 and it's EMOP's as I do not trust Mazda are supplying enough oil to the Apex Seals and Seals generally, they have been too conservative/miserly.
I don't know how they are going to achieve their 'stated LESS engine oil use' in the new 16X, if anything it would be the same or more than the S2 13B RX-8.
04-03-2009, 11:28 PM
#91
Super Moderator
04-03-2009, 11:54 PM
#93
I don't buy Kool-Aid
Is the OMP on the 09's any better? can "we" use them too?
I think it will. I have 48k on my 2004 and she still running strong I use a lot of pre mix and shift in high rpm's like the car was ment to. I also run her on the freeway and redline them gears on the on ramps. The 215 out here is so smooth.
What recall? what did I miss???
But in reality you don't know jack. Just admit that synthetic offers no more protection and neither does premixing in a daily driver. I'm just bustin' your ***** because you were so adamant that premixing and using synthetic would allow your motor to run long into the future.
I use a lot of pre mix and shift in high rpm's like the car was ment to. I also run her on the freeway and redline them gears on the on ramps. The 215 out here is so smooth.What recall? what did I miss???
04-03-2009, 11:55 PM
#94
Certified Mazda Tech
ASH: yea 1:1 ratio, the dilution turns out to be 256:1 IIRC (that is a way odd thing to know if im right) basically, it's not on the chart typically found on the back of a bottle of oil (they put the rec. ratios on the labels). My OMP is gone on one motor (s5 13bt) and the OMP is brand new on my other (13brew). I use same premix for both of them. I personally hate the OMP, but sometimes it's convenient to know i dont HAVE to get the oil right away.
The system is constantly flaw by the fact that its reusing your disgusting oil into your motor. Lubricating oil should be as fresh as possible. But even a fresh oil OMP setup is a subpar setup. The oil injectors don't mist the oil, it literally drips in. This is great, for the couple mm of housing surface it covers. But outside the line of that drip of oil there's no proper lubrication. 3 oil injectors will help, but in really you need an opening in the housing the width of the chamber and actually spraying oil out, thats the only way an OMP system will ever work.
Premixing allows the oil to be mixed with your oil, the fuel injector mists the oil and fills the majority of the combustion chamber with this vapor of oil&gas. The oil is heavier and more resistant to the temps it is about the see during combustion and it will simply build up along all the surfaces of the rotor and housings as it's pushed to the walls by combustion. The oil doesn't burn AND fully covers the interior surface of the motor. This is also why over-premixing generally isn't a problem. Also since the oil doesn't burn it doesn't effect smog.
Which sounds better to you? a 3-6 mm strip of re-usability for your housing or for the whole thing to be shiny and almost wear free?
I guess rx8 folk dont put too much thought over premixing because they can still get warrantied motors. Everyone else I know with rotaries has eliminated the omp altogether or is mixing premix.
kevin.
The system is constantly flaw by the fact that its reusing your disgusting oil into your motor. Lubricating oil should be as fresh as possible. But even a fresh oil OMP setup is a subpar setup. The oil injectors don't mist the oil, it literally drips in. This is great, for the couple mm of housing surface it covers. But outside the line of that drip of oil there's no proper lubrication. 3 oil injectors will help, but in really you need an opening in the housing the width of the chamber and actually spraying oil out, thats the only way an OMP system will ever work.
Premixing allows the oil to be mixed with your oil, the fuel injector mists the oil and fills the majority of the combustion chamber with this vapor of oil&gas. The oil is heavier and more resistant to the temps it is about the see during combustion and it will simply build up along all the surfaces of the rotor and housings as it's pushed to the walls by combustion. The oil doesn't burn AND fully covers the interior surface of the motor. This is also why over-premixing generally isn't a problem. Also since the oil doesn't burn it doesn't effect smog.
Which sounds better to you? a 3-6 mm strip of re-usability for your housing or for the whole thing to be shiny and almost wear free?
I guess rx8 folk dont put too much thought over premixing because they can still get warrantied motors. Everyone else I know with rotaries has eliminated the omp altogether or is mixing premix.
kevin.
04-04-2009, 12:00 AM
#95
I don't buy Kool-Aid
I have read on here and other sites that eliminating the omp is not good for street use. Race well yeah but look at the thread od posted where even the race guys using our motors are rebuilding 4 times a year. Thats a lot of money. There has to be another way.
04-04-2009, 12:01 AM
#96
Registered User
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Just wanted to chime in but having read the first page there are a few things I would like to point out which I find personally in a way hilarious.
#1 Clutch was "bled" many times problems persisted owner lives with it.
-Do you know how much harder it is to properly bleed a clutch than brakes? In my opinion having tried all the various bleeding methods (vacuum, regular and power) the only way to bleed a clutch effectively the first time and every time. I could easily pass 2 L of brake fluid through a clutch line and not get the same results as I do using my Motive Power Bleeder and 500ml of fluid, all the air comes out within the first turn of the bleed valve.
#2 Owner notices a gradual decrease in mpg again doesn't do much mixes up the premixing but does nothing else.
-Comming from the FD world I can't comment specifically but I can say that when you notice DRASTIC changes in MPG it has something to do not with the engine but rather with the auxiliary systems. Meaning specifically: carbon deposits prevent engine internals from operating perfectly and that prevents the car pulling in the amount of air in that it should be (vacuum) agreed. However, it is the fine atomization of fuel and the ignition of it that produces your mpg figures. So the first place to look if you are having mpg issues is at your injectors, pump, fuel filter and ignition system. Fuel filters should be changed every 12k Miles and injectors should be regularly serviced. Seeing a decrease of 70 miles a tank should have immediately pointed you to dismantling, inspecting and repairing the culprits.
#3. The motor injects motor oil, unless you have no OMP and it blocked off it is injecting motor oil point in case. Doing this increases carbon deposits, carbon deposits as mentioned previously prevent the engine internals from working as they were designed to. The Renesis has an additional "side seal" which previous rotaries have not if the spring grooves of all the seals are not clean you won't be having proper vacuum that is for sure, that will be a slow death.
Finally, you should be using a minimum of xw50 motor oil, if you don't know why and this forum doesn't explain it well enough I suggest you have a thorough reading of the following:
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=136052
Heavier oil is just going to help you prevent rotor bearing failure.
Happy rotoring and remember there is a solution to everything and even when our motors chuck an Apex we can just be happy that they cost 1/3 the price of comparable piston engines to rebuild
#1 Clutch was "bled" many times problems persisted owner lives with it.
-Do you know how much harder it is to properly bleed a clutch than brakes? In my opinion having tried all the various bleeding methods (vacuum, regular and power) the only way to bleed a clutch effectively the first time and every time. I could easily pass 2 L of brake fluid through a clutch line and not get the same results as I do using my Motive Power Bleeder and 500ml of fluid, all the air comes out within the first turn of the bleed valve.
#2 Owner notices a gradual decrease in mpg again doesn't do much mixes up the premixing but does nothing else.
-Comming from the FD world I can't comment specifically but I can say that when you notice DRASTIC changes in MPG it has something to do not with the engine but rather with the auxiliary systems. Meaning specifically: carbon deposits prevent engine internals from operating perfectly and that prevents the car pulling in the amount of air in that it should be (vacuum) agreed. However, it is the fine atomization of fuel and the ignition of it that produces your mpg figures. So the first place to look if you are having mpg issues is at your injectors, pump, fuel filter and ignition system. Fuel filters should be changed every 12k Miles and injectors should be regularly serviced. Seeing a decrease of 70 miles a tank should have immediately pointed you to dismantling, inspecting and repairing the culprits.
#3. The motor injects motor oil, unless you have no OMP and it blocked off it is injecting motor oil point in case. Doing this increases carbon deposits, carbon deposits as mentioned previously prevent the engine internals from working as they were designed to. The Renesis has an additional "side seal" which previous rotaries have not if the spring grooves of all the seals are not clean you won't be having proper vacuum that is for sure, that will be a slow death.
Finally, you should be using a minimum of xw50 motor oil, if you don't know why and this forum doesn't explain it well enough I suggest you have a thorough reading of the following:
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=136052
Heavier oil is just going to help you prevent rotor bearing failure.
Happy rotoring and remember there is a solution to everything and even when our motors chuck an Apex we can just be happy that they cost 1/3 the price of comparable piston engines to rebuild
04-04-2009, 12:02 AM
#97
Certified Mazda Tech
with some wiring trickery and an 09 PCM yea probably. But it'd be a lot of work and would require an 09 PCM to fully take advantage of the 2nd OMP and 3rd nozzle setup. That 3rd nozzle changes things, minor things, but things that need to be adjusted for.
kevin.
Premix and beat the **** out of it. Seriously. I tell everyone I know who is worried abou their motor. If you Premix properly and just beat the **** out of that little wankel you'll have no problems. The motor is BUILT to be at high rpms at least 60% of the time.
old rotary trick you could do to steam clean your motor is while it's running (and is fully warmed up) connect a vac hose into a gallon jug of water (hose must reach at least 2 of the intake runners) and keep it running (you cant hydrolock the motor)
once the jug is done disconnect and go drive the **** out of it real quick. Gets rid of some nasty **** from your engine's system. You can do the same thing with ATF use it like you would the zoom cleaner except do it with the engine running, itll smoke like a bitch but it does wonders in the motor.
kevin.
kevin.
I think it will. I have 48k on my 2004 and she still running strong I use a lot of pre mix and shift in high rpm's like the car was ment to. I also run her on the freeway and redline them gears on the on ramps. The 215 out here is so smooth.
I use a lot of pre mix and shift in high rpm's like the car was ment to. I also run her on the freeway and redline them gears on the on ramps. The 215 out here is so smooth.
old rotary trick you could do to steam clean your motor is while it's running (and is fully warmed up) connect a vac hose into a gallon jug of water (hose must reach at least 2 of the intake runners) and keep it running (you cant hydrolock the motor)
once the jug is done disconnect and go drive the **** out of it real quick. Gets rid of some nasty **** from your engine's system. You can do the same thing with ATF use it like you would the zoom cleaner except do it with the engine running, itll smoke like a bitch but it does wonders in the motor.
kevin.
04-04-2009, 12:08 AM
#99
Certified Mazda Tech
Removing the OMP and running premix is the best for street use which is actually MORE brutal to the motors internals then race scenarios. The rotary is built for sustained high rpm performance, thats where the racecars keep them that's where they're happy.
As for race guys rebuilding 4 times a year, I have known many people go entire seasons without touching it. IIRC Mazda's 767B 4 Rotor was never rebuilt during it's amazing season, i could be thinking of another stat forgive me if im off about that.
To be honest tho a racing motor is ripped apart generally not for failure but for safety replacements. Piston engines are stripped and rebuilt after EVERY race. Having to teardown and rebuild your motor maybe 4 times compared to everytime is rather amazing.
Here's what it comes down to: adding premix to your car IS PROVEN to increase engine internal lubricity and overall condition and health of the motor. There are absolutely NO DOWNSIDES to premixing. So why wouldn't you premix? It's the only mod that is all positive no negative and only requires you to purchase oil and pour in tank...you can leave the OMP system functioning normally and still premix. The rotary engine is special, and it is VERY needy, but it produces amazing results when you provide it with what it needs. If you can honestly read that sentence at the beginning of this paragraph and say "nah i dont want to premix" then you're, well i dont even know but it would be ridiculous.
kevin.
Last edited by teknics; 04-04-2009 at 12:11 AM.
04-04-2009, 12:28 AM
#100
Super Moderator
The EMOP on the 09's are picking up engine oil direct from the Oil Pump after the oil filter, so at the very least it is as clean as possible.
I actually change my oil and filter every 5000 KM (3000 Miles), with Castrol GTX3 (In Australia it is 15w40), I have some MRO 5W30 I will only use in winter.
We should all know that when you replace your oil you are really only changing about 65% as the old oil is still in the Oil Coolers, so please change your oil at least every 3k's.
Also agree with Kevin on the Rotor Bearing failures (particularly in the US), IMO using a 5W20 grade of oil is the reason!, Mazda's requirement for this grade was/is for Fuel Mileage.
What would you rather have, Better Fuel Economy or Better Engine Wear Protection?
IMO 5W20 and or 0W20,30 oils should be banned for Summer use.
I actually change my oil and filter every 5000 KM (3000 Miles), with Castrol GTX3 (In Australia it is 15w40), I have some MRO 5W30 I will only use in winter.
We should all know that when you replace your oil you are really only changing about 65% as the old oil is still in the Oil Coolers, so please change your oil at least every 3k's.
Also agree with Kevin on the Rotor Bearing failures (particularly in the US), IMO using a 5W20 grade of oil is the reason!, Mazda's requirement for this grade was/is for Fuel Mileage.
What would you rather have, Better Fuel Economy or Better Engine Wear Protection?
IMO 5W20 and or 0W20,30 oils should be banned for Summer use.