Confirmed : NYCGPS's Motor is dead~
04-08-2009, 10:26 PM
#176
Super Moderator
You still dont get the idea of "I didnt start premix until my 3rd year of ownership"
and you still dont get the idea of "damage is already done."
Im not talkin smack, what I said was pure facts.
go re-read the reason why Mazda released the recall flash.
I might not know ****, but at least Im not an ignorant *** like you're.
You cant take facts?? Too bad. Take your rage somewhere else.
and you still dont get the idea of "damage is already done."
Im not talkin smack, what I said was pure facts.
go re-read the reason why Mazda released the recall flash.
I might not know ****, but at least Im not an ignorant *** like you're.
You cant take facts?? Too bad. Take your rage somewhere else.
You must read the discussion I am having on a Rotary UK site, boy are these guys THICK.....Sorry mates... I am RX-8888
http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forum...431#post597431
Last edited by ASH8; 04-08-2009 at 10:30 PM.
04-08-2009, 10:45 PM
#178
Ok, done reading.
What I find funny is that Mazda put only 1 nozzle @ the center in the older 13Bs. but when it comes to MSP, they start out with 2 "side" nozzle. Now they finally covering both sides and center.
Why didnt they do it in the first place?
What I find funny is that Mazda put only 1 nozzle @ the center in the older 13Bs. but when it comes to MSP, they start out with 2 "side" nozzle. Now they finally covering both sides and center.
Why didnt they do it in the first place?
04-08-2009, 10:47 PM
#179
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
Why dont you go ahead and quote those who said they will use Dino only and and no premix but then motor still blew ?
and I thought you said Premix is useless? Why using it now ? Your motor gonna blow anyway, right ?
Have u ever thought that your motor might be a bad build from factory ?
04-08-2009, 10:56 PM
#180
I don't blame my first motor failing on using synthetic oil. I don't blame anything but bad design. Your missing the point. Fact is that it should work reliably from the factory and we should not have to throw **** at it to keep it from failing. If you maintain it the way the factory recommends then it should freakin' work at least 100k miles or more. Has anyone made it to 100k on a motor?
5w20 on a high rev engine ? and only what 6-7 quarts of oil in total ? AT has only 1 freaking oil cooler ? and what was the bypass opens at again ? 92 Celsius ? OMP ? Does not recommend people to mix anything into the fuel ? etc
Right but what the hell, I'll premix and see!
Thats a lot of bad builds. So is it bad builds or poor OMP?
when you compare the Renesis to the older 13Bs. The required "clearance/spec" is much tighter on the older 13b than Renesis.
Why they're doing this I dont know. Maybe a way to save them some time building it ?
2nd - Its probably too hard to get "omG this car looks sick Im gonna get it" kind of moron to understand the premix logic, so OMP kind of system will stay ... or else no one will buy rotary.
I really wanna take that **** out. But I can't, ECU gonna annoy me.
3rd - Fine, OMP its here to stay. Guess what ? Mazda fuxked the metering rate up. OMP is already pathetic. but for some reason they just "drip" so little freaking oil to a high revving motor. wow. Results? tons of dead motors.
They know they fucked up, both OMP and the oil rate. but Too late. I think lots of 04 failed and 05(me) are failing, soon 06 will follow ... Cuz damages is done. nothing can reverse it.
Last edited by nycgps; 04-08-2009 at 11:07 PM.
04-08-2009, 10:57 PM
#181
Super Moderator
04-08-2009, 11:00 PM
#182
04-08-2009, 11:10 PM
#183
but still, he has to rebuild it. it was like 120K miles too.
Look back the history, you will know what I mean.
Nowdays? When u tell someone "Oh my car lasted 200K+ miles!" They will look at you like you came out of some 3rd world country who couldn't afford something newer. With cars so cheap and licenses so easy to get, its not hard to get a new car. People will say "Why bother with old cars when I can get a new one every 3 years!"
Plus, people are so into mpg these days (bad economy), they wanna squeeze every single mpg out there as possible. with that in mind, Auto companies will say : "woohoo, they're into mpg ! what should we do now ? .... hmm, since they're buying a new car every couple years or so, we dont have to make our cars last AS LONG as its used to be ! lets see more mpg ... ahh ! I have an idea ! thinner oil !!! YaY ! "
Last edited by nycgps; 04-08-2009 at 11:27 PM.
04-08-2009, 11:15 PM
#184
Super Moderator
Yes, the FD RX-7 just had one in the middle, but a much higher rate of oil applied and IMO this is the critical area that needs lube, remember the spark plugs are also located in the centre of the housings (Heat).
The FC had 2 in each housing similar to the RX-8 but more off centered and not at an angle.
You have to remember that Mazda were very miserly when it came to the volume of oil in the RX-8, (all the Flashes) it just was not enough, however, the more oil that gets burnt the issue then becomes emission settings.
I really believe the extra production cost of having more nozzles was an issue, remember they also had to upgrade the MOP to handle 6 nozzles, now done with 2 EMOP's.
Look at the money that would have been saved if they did it right in the first place...less warranty claims.
04-08-2009, 11:18 PM
#185
Super Moderator
BTW: I would be very happy if I get 200K out of my car, you can't expect that much more from a rotary...really..
In a Banger engine, sometimes you have to Valve regrind or head gasket, you can't do that with a rotary...
Last edited by ASH8; 04-08-2009 at 11:20 PM.
04-08-2009, 11:23 PM
#186
Certified Mazda Tech
But even you cannot predict which motors will last and which ones will not because of the *** load of variables that come into play. I'm not argueing premix helps but its not a magic fix.
There are plenty of premix guys here that had had blown motors so premixing is not the end all fix.
I will stick to my castrol GTX though.
There are plenty of premix guys here that had had blown motors so premixing is not the end all fix.
I will stick to my castrol GTX though.
You need to understand materials were changed for this motor from previous 13bs. They didn't factor in the extra lubrication necessary. The used the same amount or at least a fairly similar amount as what they used on previous motors, apparently more lubrication was needed, theyve made the adjustments they feel necessary and they move forward in development.
Yes there have been catastrophic failures, and yes those most of the time are hard to narrow down to an exact reason due to infinite variables being able to create situations never imagined/planned. But the motors lost to slow loss of compression, such as the when the car slowlys gives you more trouble to start when hot, slight loss of power maybe eve a hesitation, gas mileage goes down slowly with apparently no effect from new fuel and/or air filters, oil gets darker faster, motors with excessive symptoms of carbon buildup, seem to be the more popular ones.
The entire carbon problem in the end goes back to the OMP it uses and reuses the motor oil so much that it is adding oil which is no longer able to it's just since it is so full of contaminants, with no strong oil film buildup the carbon snags on the housing and slowly builds up. This is why they've added filters to the OMP system and why they've out of the blue completely changed the oiling system to provide more pressure and more volume. They are trying to ensure more then a "drip" and they need cleaner motor oil longer. I hold my breathe on the new design, i was in conversations about it while it was being designed and they have high hopes for it. They focused heavily on making sure the oil was more fully distributed along the interior surfaces.
As for people blowing motors while premixing, I'm guessing they A) didnt premix from day one and B) suffered a catastrophic failure (broken seal etc) rather then a gradual lack of compression aka the things premix has no effect on.
I use castrol gtx 20w50 dino oil in my rotaries. mobil 1 5w20 in my evo (to maintain warranty). I'm not a synth. fan even tho i've seen real comparisons on synth. oil benefits, its been nothing big enough to make me switch.
kevin.
Last edited by teknics; 04-08-2009 at 11:27 PM.
04-08-2009, 11:27 PM
#187
Yeah, I think it was a mistake to have the 2 Nozzles pointing outer and to-wards the Corner seals and ends of the Apex seals.
Yes, the FD RX-7 just had one in the middle, but a much higher rate of oil applied and IMO this is the critical area that needs lube, remember the spark plugs are also located in the centre of the housings (Heat).
The FC had 2 in each housing similar to the RX-8 but more off centered and not at an angle.
You have to remember that Mazda were very miserly when it came to the volume of oil in the RX-8, (all the Flashes) it just was not enough, however, the more oil that gets burnt the issue then becomes emission settings.
I really believe the extra production cost of having more nozzles was an issue, remember they also had to upgrade the MOP to handle 6 nozzles, now done with 2 EMOP's.
Look at the money that would have been saved if they did it right in the first place...less warranty claims.
Yes, the FD RX-7 just had one in the middle, but a much higher rate of oil applied and IMO this is the critical area that needs lube, remember the spark plugs are also located in the centre of the housings (Heat).
The FC had 2 in each housing similar to the RX-8 but more off centered and not at an angle.
You have to remember that Mazda were very miserly when it came to the volume of oil in the RX-8, (all the Flashes) it just was not enough, however, the more oil that gets burnt the issue then becomes emission settings.
I really believe the extra production cost of having more nozzles was an issue, remember they also had to upgrade the MOP to handle 6 nozzles, now done with 2 EMOP's.
Look at the money that would have been saved if they did it right in the first place...less warranty claims.
*sigh* Mazda ... How many wrongs to make it right ...
04-08-2009, 11:30 PM
#188
Certified Mazda Tech
kevin.
04-08-2009, 11:30 PM
#189
Super Moderator
You can't predict anything in the world realistically, if you can your psychic. What I'm saying is that the standard basis of most of the engine failures is a slow loss of compression (which in a rotary is not as noticeable as in a piston car, ive known people to drive on blown rotaries for long lengths of time and now even know). By "standard basis" I mean for every 7 slow compression motors i change i see maybe 1 catastrophic failure, right now i have 3 slow compression loss cars on my "waiting for motor" list) The slow loss of compression is caused by the excessive wear to the rotor housing and apex seals.
You need to understand materials were changed for this motor from previous 13bs. They didn't factor in the extra lubrication necessary. The used the same amount or at least a fairly similar amount as what they used on previous motors, apparently more lubrication was needed, theyve made the adjustments they feel necessary and they move forward in development.
Yes there have been catastrophic failures, and yes those most of the time are hard to narrow down to an exact reason due to infinite variables being able to create situations never imagined/planned. But the motors lost to slow loss of compression, such as the when the car slowlys gives you more trouble to start when hot, slight loss of power maybe eve a hesitation, gas mileage goes down slowly with apparently no effect from new fuel and/or air filters, oil gets darker faster, motors with excessive symptoms of carbon buildup, seem to be the more popular ones.
The entire carbon problem in the end goes back to the OMP it uses and reuses the motor oil so much that it is adding oil which is no longer able to it's just since it is so full of contaminants, with no strong oil film buildup the carbon snags on the housing and slowly builds up. This is why they've added filters to the OMP system and why they've out of the blue completely changed the oiling system to provide more pressure and more volume. They are trying to ensure more then a "drip" and they need cleaner motor oil longer. I hold my breathe on the new design, i was in conversations about it while it was being designed and they have high hopes for it. They focused heavily on making sure the oil was more fully distributed along the interior surfaces.
As for people blowing motors while premixing, I'm guessing they A) didnt premix from day one and B) suffered a catastrophic failure (broken seal etc) rather then a gradual lack of compression aka the things premix has no effect on.
I use castrol gtx 20w50 dino oil in my rotaries. mobil 1 5w20 in my evo (to maintain warranty). I'm not a synth. fan even tho i've seen real comparisons on synth. oil benefits, its been nothing big enough to make me switch.
kevin.
You need to understand materials were changed for this motor from previous 13bs. They didn't factor in the extra lubrication necessary. The used the same amount or at least a fairly similar amount as what they used on previous motors, apparently more lubrication was needed, theyve made the adjustments they feel necessary and they move forward in development.
Yes there have been catastrophic failures, and yes those most of the time are hard to narrow down to an exact reason due to infinite variables being able to create situations never imagined/planned. But the motors lost to slow loss of compression, such as the when the car slowlys gives you more trouble to start when hot, slight loss of power maybe eve a hesitation, gas mileage goes down slowly with apparently no effect from new fuel and/or air filters, oil gets darker faster, motors with excessive symptoms of carbon buildup, seem to be the more popular ones.
The entire carbon problem in the end goes back to the OMP it uses and reuses the motor oil so much that it is adding oil which is no longer able to it's just since it is so full of contaminants, with no strong oil film buildup the carbon snags on the housing and slowly builds up. This is why they've added filters to the OMP system and why they've out of the blue completely changed the oiling system to provide more pressure and more volume. They are trying to ensure more then a "drip" and they need cleaner motor oil longer. I hold my breathe on the new design, i was in conversations about it while it was being designed and they have high hopes for it. They focused heavily on making sure the oil was more fully distributed along the interior surfaces.
As for people blowing motors while premixing, I'm guessing they A) didnt premix from day one and B) suffered a catastrophic failure (broken seal etc) rather then a gradual lack of compression aka the things premix has no effect on.
I use castrol gtx 20w50 dino oil in my rotaries. mobil 1 5w20 in my evo (to maintain warranty). I'm not a synth. fan even tho i've seen real comparisons on synth. oil benefits, its been nothing big enough to make me switch.
kevin.
Care to add some sense into my debate (RX-8888) on the UK site...don't blame you if you don't want to...
04-08-2009, 11:49 PM
#190
Metatron
iTrader: (1)
I saw the dilemma as soon as the RX-8 was announced.
The rotary needs a/oil injection or b/a seperate tank of two-stroke.
b/ is a non-starter - there is NO way the 'Mr. Average Consumer' would fill a second tank.
a/ is a fine line - Mr. A.C. sees any car that 'uses' oil as a lemon, so the rate must be kept really low.
Really low rates of injection would mean really low lifespans of the new engine.
I premixed from the day I got it home.....
S
The rotary needs a/oil injection or b/a seperate tank of two-stroke.
b/ is a non-starter - there is NO way the 'Mr. Average Consumer' would fill a second tank.
a/ is a fine line - Mr. A.C. sees any car that 'uses' oil as a lemon, so the rate must be kept really low.
Really low rates of injection would mean really low lifespans of the new engine.
I premixed from the day I got it home.....
S
04-09-2009, 12:55 AM
#191
Certified Mazda Tech
I saw the dilemma as soon as the RX-8 was announced.
The rotary needs a/oil injection or b/a seperate tank of two-stroke.
b/ is a non-starter - there is NO way the 'Mr. Average Consumer' would fill a second tank.
a/ is a fine line - Mr. A.C. sees any car that 'uses' oil as a lemon, so the rate must be kept really low.
Really low rates of injection would mean really low lifespans of the new engine.
I premixed from the day I got it home.....
S
The rotary needs a/oil injection or b/a seperate tank of two-stroke.
b/ is a non-starter - there is NO way the 'Mr. Average Consumer' would fill a second tank.
a/ is a fine line - Mr. A.C. sees any car that 'uses' oil as a lemon, so the rate must be kept really low.
Really low rates of injection would mean really low lifespans of the new engine.
I premixed from the day I got it home.....
S
as for the 8 once i heard it was still using the basic principles from the 13brew in terms of lubrication and the change of materials i knew there'd be a bad batch of engine assemblies produced for a while.
kevin.
04-09-2009, 01:36 AM
#192
Super Moderator
04-09-2009, 02:26 AM
#193
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2009
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ok well im getting my car back with a new motor tomorrow...
What brand is recommended for premix you can buy locally at parts stores and forgive me for not reading every page here...but thats the mix combination...
is it about 8 oz per full tank?
What brand is recommended for premix you can buy locally at parts stores and forgive me for not reading every page here...but thats the mix combination...
is it about 8 oz per full tank?
04-09-2009, 02:54 AM
#194
is adjusting valve lash
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NYC: wow, just wow.
i'm not gonna give you a hard time about synthetics. it doesn't seem to be that. at least i hope! mine's an '07 and premix since new, occasionally add a qt of synthetic to my intervals. the only problem it had was during the first 2k miles when it was suffering powerloss until it got a new pcm flash upgrade...and this is still premixing when i got the car new!
i really hope to see where this goes. if my motor fails, then i guess it goes to luck with having a good motor or not, as this motor seems so unpredictable... all precautions taken.
have fun with ur new motor tho!
i'm not gonna give you a hard time about synthetics. it doesn't seem to be that. at least i hope! mine's an '07 and premix since new, occasionally add a qt of synthetic to my intervals. the only problem it had was during the first 2k miles when it was suffering powerloss until it got a new pcm flash upgrade...and this is still premixing when i got the car new!
i really hope to see where this goes. if my motor fails, then i guess it goes to luck with having a good motor or not, as this motor seems so unpredictable... all precautions taken.
have fun with ur new motor tho!
04-09-2009, 03:50 AM
#195
Super Moderator
I use Amsoil Saber Pro
As long as you use a good quality Synthetic 2 stroke that is not TCW (for Marine use), is not a Castor type of lubricant, you will be fine.
04-09-2009, 05:45 AM
#197
Good insight Kevin; thanks.
All the more reason I'll continue to dutifully change my oil/filter at 3k (5w-30 Castrol GTX) and premix every tank (Idemitsu, 4 oz/tank).
I use dino in my '8, but have seen cold weather ease of starting benefits to running synthetic in my Jeep.
All the more reason I'll continue to dutifully change my oil/filter at 3k (5w-30 Castrol GTX) and premix every tank (Idemitsu, 4 oz/tank).
I use dino in my '8, but have seen cold weather ease of starting benefits to running synthetic in my Jeep.
You can't predict anything in the world realistically, if you can your psychic. What I'm saying is that the standard basis of most of the engine failures is a slow loss of compression (which in a rotary is not as noticeable as in a piston car, ive known people to drive on blown rotaries for long lengths of time and now even know). By "standard basis" I mean for every 7 slow compression motors i change i see maybe 1 catastrophic failure, right now i have 3 slow compression loss cars on my "waiting for motor" list) The slow loss of compression is caused by the excessive wear to the rotor housing and apex seals.
You need to understand materials were changed for this motor from previous 13bs. They didn't factor in the extra lubrication necessary. The used the same amount or at least a fairly similar amount as what they used on previous motors, apparently more lubrication was needed, theyve made the adjustments they feel necessary and they move forward in development.
Yes there have been catastrophic failures, and yes those most of the time are hard to narrow down to an exact reason due to infinite variables being able to create situations never imagined/planned. But the motors lost to slow loss of compression, such as the when the car slowlys gives you more trouble to start when hot, slight loss of power maybe eve a hesitation, gas mileage goes down slowly with apparently no effect from new fuel and/or air filters, oil gets darker faster, motors with excessive symptoms of carbon buildup, seem to be the more popular ones.
The entire carbon problem in the end goes back to the OMP it uses and reuses the motor oil so much that it is adding oil which is no longer able to it's just since it is so full of contaminants, with no strong oil film buildup the carbon snags on the housing and slowly builds up. This is why they've added filters to the OMP system and why they've out of the blue completely changed the oiling system to provide more pressure and more volume. They are trying to ensure more then a "drip" and they need cleaner motor oil longer. I hold my breathe on the new design, i was in conversations about it while it was being designed and they have high hopes for it. They focused heavily on making sure the oil was more fully distributed along the interior surfaces.
As for people blowing motors while premixing, I'm guessing they A) didnt premix from day one and B) suffered a catastrophic failure (broken seal etc) rather then a gradual lack of compression aka the things premix has no effect on.
I use castrol gtx 20w50 dino oil in my rotaries. mobil 1 5w20 in my evo (to maintain warranty). I'm not a synth. fan even tho i've seen real comparisons on synth. oil benefits, its been nothing big enough to make me switch.
kevin.
You need to understand materials were changed for this motor from previous 13bs. They didn't factor in the extra lubrication necessary. The used the same amount or at least a fairly similar amount as what they used on previous motors, apparently more lubrication was needed, theyve made the adjustments they feel necessary and they move forward in development.
Yes there have been catastrophic failures, and yes those most of the time are hard to narrow down to an exact reason due to infinite variables being able to create situations never imagined/planned. But the motors lost to slow loss of compression, such as the when the car slowlys gives you more trouble to start when hot, slight loss of power maybe eve a hesitation, gas mileage goes down slowly with apparently no effect from new fuel and/or air filters, oil gets darker faster, motors with excessive symptoms of carbon buildup, seem to be the more popular ones.
The entire carbon problem in the end goes back to the OMP it uses and reuses the motor oil so much that it is adding oil which is no longer able to it's just since it is so full of contaminants, with no strong oil film buildup the carbon snags on the housing and slowly builds up. This is why they've added filters to the OMP system and why they've out of the blue completely changed the oiling system to provide more pressure and more volume. They are trying to ensure more then a "drip" and they need cleaner motor oil longer. I hold my breathe on the new design, i was in conversations about it while it was being designed and they have high hopes for it. They focused heavily on making sure the oil was more fully distributed along the interior surfaces.
As for people blowing motors while premixing, I'm guessing they A) didnt premix from day one and B) suffered a catastrophic failure (broken seal etc) rather then a gradual lack of compression aka the things premix has no effect on.
I use castrol gtx 20w50 dino oil in my rotaries. mobil 1 5w20 in my evo (to maintain warranty). I'm not a synth. fan even tho i've seen real comparisons on synth. oil benefits, its been nothing big enough to make me switch.
kevin.
Last edited by Huey52; 04-09-2009 at 05:48 AM.
04-09-2009, 10:20 AM
#198
Registered
Yea, in reference to my personal thoughts of a system, mine would be so much more efficient in reality it could probably consume less oil while doing a better job so a fillable reservoir could be nicely sized, easily accessible, say next to the washer neck. Also make it part of a regular service and time the consumption ratio to make the reservoir last about 5k before a warning pops up unless the oil gets changed and the fluid is topped off and you then reset the maintenance reminder light (which so many cars now have, including the new mazda 3).
as for the 8 once i heard it was still using the basic principles from the 13brew in terms of lubrication and the change of materials i knew there'd be a bad batch of engine assemblies produced for a while.
kevin.
as for the 8 once i heard it was still using the basic principles from the 13brew in terms of lubrication and the change of materials i knew there'd be a bad batch of engine assemblies produced for a while.
kevin.
Anyway, in the meantime, I have a couple more questions for you. Do you use 1 oz/gal premix on both your cars, even the one with the new MOP installed? Do you have a cat on either of your rotaries?
Also, what were the materials changes you're refering to in the Renesis compared with older 13Bs?
04-09-2009, 11:23 AM
#199
Hey, Kevin. Ideas similar to yours have been kicked around here before. One version would have the car not start when the 2-stroke container was empty. Your idea is better. It will be interesting to see how direct injection is done on the 16x--maybe that would be an opportunity for a better OMP design.
Anyway, in the meantime, I have a couple more questions for you. Do you use 1 oz/gal premix on both your cars, even the one with the new MOP installed? Do you have a cat on either of your rotaries?
Also, what were the materials changes you're refering to in the Renesis compared with older 13Bs?
Anyway, in the meantime, I have a couple more questions for you. Do you use 1 oz/gal premix on both your cars, even the one with the new MOP installed? Do you have a cat on either of your rotaries?
Also, what were the materials changes you're refering to in the Renesis compared with older 13Bs?
04-09-2009, 11:25 AM
#200
NYC: wow, just wow.
i'm not gonna give you a hard time about synthetics. it doesn't seem to be that. at least i hope! mine's an '07 and premix since new, occasionally add a qt of synthetic to my intervals. the only problem it had was during the first 2k miles when it was suffering powerloss until it got a new pcm flash upgrade...and this is still premixing when i got the car new!
i really hope to see where this goes. if my motor fails, then i guess it goes to luck with having a good motor or not, as this motor seems so unpredictable... all precautions taken.
have fun with ur new motor tho!
i'm not gonna give you a hard time about synthetics. it doesn't seem to be that. at least i hope! mine's an '07 and premix since new, occasionally add a qt of synthetic to my intervals. the only problem it had was during the first 2k miles when it was suffering powerloss until it got a new pcm flash upgrade...and this is still premixing when i got the car new!
i really hope to see where this goes. if my motor fails, then i guess it goes to luck with having a good motor or not, as this motor seems so unpredictable... all precautions taken.
have fun with ur new motor tho!
Like I said b4, it might be easier to build engine like this. Since its all hand build but its not exotic(higher profit) engine like VQ38DETT(Its all hand build), time is key ...
Premix since brand new might not protect your motor from early failure, hey I mean, **** happens all the time, right? but at least you did your "part". So if it still fails. Oh well. at least no regrets.
Last edited by nycgps; 04-09-2009 at 11:30 AM.