Confirmed : NYCGPS's Motor is dead~
04-09-2009, 11:41 AM
#201
Certified Mazda Tech
Hey, Kevin. Ideas similar to yours have been kicked around here before. One version would have the car not start when the 2-stroke container was empty. Your idea is better. It will be interesting to see how direct injection is done on the 16x--maybe that would be an opportunity for a better OMP design.
Anyway, in the meantime, I have a couple more questions for you. Do you use 1 oz/gal premix on both your cars, even the one with the new MOP installed? Do you have a cat on either of your rotaries?
The FD does run a new OMP, with new injectors, new pump, and new braided lines. It has a 16 gallon capacity for fuel, i run either 16ozs of premix or 12ozs depending on expected driving conditions (my cars are driven for reasons, they are not cruised at random
). OMP Injectors vac is sourced pre-turbo so that there is a constant vac source even while boosting. I've personally suffered an oil injector failure on my FD motor with no visible adverse effects to the internal surfaces/seals (happened before my 2nd bearing failure, 1st bearing failure trashed the entire interior of the motor, 2nd failure was caught relatively early and by random chance otherwise it too would have been too trashed to determine anything from)The t2's OMP system has been completely removed and is always run at a 1:1 ratio, it also has a 16 gallon fuel capacity so that would be 16ozs of premix per tank.
1 gallon = 128 fluid ounces so a 1:1 ratio with a 16 gallon fuel tank is a 128:1 ratio of fuel:premix. I've run a 256:1 ratio (1:2, oz oil:gal gas). I switched to a 128:1 ratio really after an indepth conversation with a few important people, some personal experiences, and other aspects that generally don't apply to rx8 environments. It's also just easier when they sell premix in 16oz containers and my fuel tanks are 16 gallons LOL, but that just happened to be a side effect of my switch rather then a reason.
I have no cats, resonators or mufflers on either rotary car, both smoke on a cold startup however it's not oil burning it's excess fuel, this only happens on days with an ambient temp below 60degrees and the smoke last approx 10 seconds. Above 60 degrees they start with no smoke.
Both are always filled with castrol gtx 20w50, in the rare occasion that they are driven outside of march-august the oil is switched to 10w30, they rarely are driven at those times tho, mainly only to either a meet i'd like to be at or to a bodyshop. They are never dynoed or pushed on anything other then 20w50.
Also, what were the materials changes you're refering to in the Renesis compared with older 13Bs?
Like i said though, I'll attempt to provide more in-depth detail later tonight.
hope it was useful,
kevin.
Last edited by teknics; 04-09-2009 at 06:02 PM.
04-09-2009, 11:51 AM
#202
Certified Mazda Tech
kevin.
04-09-2009, 04:09 PM
#203
Super Moderator
The owner of the Forum says they have RX-8 owners with over 180,000 Miles and still going....I find that very hard to believe.
The same guys also says that the 3rd injector was added to "assist in the cooling of the Apex seals"...COOLING....yeah right...Lubricating yes, but cooling, there just is not enough oil for that...
They do not want to hear about Pre-Mix..it is "Snake oil" according to them and Until Mazda recommends it they won't use it...they also don't believe the numbers of rebuilds....because their dealers tell them so...they would rather believe their dealers.
04-09-2009, 05:54 PM
#204
Certified Mazda Tech
Had an interesting debate that has been 'edited' over on that UK forum...
The owner of the Forum says they have RX-8 owners with over 180,000 Miles and still going....I find that very hard to believe.
The same guys also says that the 3rd injector was added to "assist in the cooling of the Apex seals"...COOLING....yeah right...Lubricating yes, but cooling, there just is not enough oil for that...
They do not want to hear about Pre-Mix..it is "Snake oil" according to them and Until Mazda recommends it they won't use it...they also don't believe the numbers of rebuilds....because their dealers tell them so...they would rather believe their dealers.
The owner of the Forum says they have RX-8 owners with over 180,000 Miles and still going....I find that very hard to believe.
The same guys also says that the 3rd injector was added to "assist in the cooling of the Apex seals"...COOLING....yeah right...Lubricating yes, but cooling, there just is not enough oil for that...
They do not want to hear about Pre-Mix..it is "Snake oil" according to them and Until Mazda recommends it they won't use it...they also don't believe the numbers of rebuilds....because their dealers tell them so...they would rather believe their dealers.
kevin.
04-09-2009, 06:05 PM
#205
The same guys also says that the 3rd injector was added to "assist in the cooling of the Apex seals"...COOLING....yeah right...Lubricating yes, but cooling, there just is not enough oil for that...
ok ... oil carries around one third of the heat away that is true but ... omp's dripping oil ... i want him to explain the logic behind it. rofl. full of fail.
i think u should stop talking there. isince its just a waste of time
They do not want to hear about Pre-Mix..it is "Snake oil" according to them and Until Mazda recommends it they won't use it...they also don't believe the numbers of rebuilds....because their dealers tell them so...they would rather believe their dealers.
these probably came from some dude who perform all services at dealership. so to him yes we should all listen to whatever dealership tells us ... including rx-8 r3 is a limited edition
Last edited by nycgps; 04-09-2009 at 06:13 PM.
04-09-2009, 06:23 PM
#206
Registered
Yea I figured more then a few people have considered similar things, main problems standing in the way is the machining of the rotor housings to seal properly etc. Hell another possibility is mounting the injector in the plates instead of the housings and machining small paths thru the plate directing oil flow into the chamber, using the e-shaft sensor you can determine the position of the faces of the rotors and only inject oil when the chamber is open aka nothing blocking the injection port. This could be advantageous as well because it provides the ability to focus the direction of the spray as well as utilizing the forces of the motor to vaporize the oil more thoroughly for better distribution. Main problem there is the heat in the plate could slowly clog the oil passageways etc etc.
My cars really aren't good examples, at least not to base rx8 ideas on. Mainly because they are both big turboed motors as well as their actual construction. A relatively unknown fact is that the mazda 787b's 26b/20g motor used a different interior surface coating on the engine internals, I happened to make a good connection at a good time through mazda, and for a fair price both my motors now have the same surface coating/construction inside (my t2 motor was apart for a new build and i blew my FD motor twice due to bearing failures and it happened to be cracked open at the same time as well). My FD motor is also running a different compression from stock and is using 3mm apex seals with solid corner seals, my t2 motor is using 2mm seals with solid corner seals. Each also has various other personal experimental modifications internally.
The FD does run a new OMP, with new injectors, new pump, and new braided lines. It has a 16 gallon capacity for fuel, i run either 16ozs of premix or 12ozs depending on expected driving conditions (my cars are driven for reasons, they are not cruised at random ). OMP Injectors vac is sourced pre-turbo so that there is a constant vac source even while boosting. I've personally suffered an oil injector failure on my FD motor with no visible adverse effects to the internal surfaces/seals (happened before my 2nd bearing failure, 1st bearing failure trashed the entire interior of the motor, 2nd failure was caught relatively early and by random chance otherwise it too would have been too trashed to determine anything from)
The t2's OMP system has been completely removed and is always run at a 1:1 ratio, it also has a 16 gallon fuel capacity so that would be 16ozs of premix per tank.
1 gallon = 128 fluid ounces so a 1:1 ratio with a 16 gallon fuel tank is a 128:1 ratio of fuel:premix. I've run a 256:1 ratio (1:2, oz oil:gal gas). I switched to a 128:1 ratio really after an indepth conversation with a few important people, some personal experiences, and other aspects that generally don't apply to rx8 environments. It's also just easier when they sell premix in 16oz containers and my fuel tanks are 16 gallons LOL, but that just happened to be a side effect of my switch rather then a reason.
I have no cats, resonators or mufflers on either rotary car, both smoke on a cold startup however it's not oil burning it's excess fuel, this only happens on days with an ambient temp below 60degrees and the smoke last approx 10 seconds. Above 60 degrees they start with no smoke.
Both are always filled with castrol gtx 20w50, in the rare occasion that they are driven outside of march-august the oil is switched to 10w30, they rarely are driven at those times tho, mainly only to either a meet i'd like to be at or to a bodyshop. They are never dynoed or pushed on anything other then 20w50.
When i get out of work I'll go through my documents and try to find the exact changes, i'm also sending an email to japan right now to see if a can get the actual metallurgical changes listing. Off the top of my head I'm pretty sure the application and construction of the rotor housing surface material was changed, the rotors themselves were changed, the seals i'm 50/50 on, and there's a few other minor things.
Like i said though, I'll attempt to provide more in-depth detail later tonight.
hope it was useful,
kevin.
My cars really aren't good examples, at least not to base rx8 ideas on. Mainly because they are both big turboed motors as well as their actual construction. A relatively unknown fact is that the mazda 787b's 26b/20g motor used a different interior surface coating on the engine internals, I happened to make a good connection at a good time through mazda, and for a fair price both my motors now have the same surface coating/construction inside (my t2 motor was apart for a new build and i blew my FD motor twice due to bearing failures and it happened to be cracked open at the same time as well). My FD motor is also running a different compression from stock and is using 3mm apex seals with solid corner seals, my t2 motor is using 2mm seals with solid corner seals. Each also has various other personal experimental modifications internally.
The FD does run a new OMP, with new injectors, new pump, and new braided lines. It has a 16 gallon capacity for fuel, i run either 16ozs of premix or 12ozs depending on expected driving conditions (my cars are driven for reasons, they are not cruised at random
). OMP Injectors vac is sourced pre-turbo so that there is a constant vac source even while boosting. I've personally suffered an oil injector failure on my FD motor with no visible adverse effects to the internal surfaces/seals (happened before my 2nd bearing failure, 1st bearing failure trashed the entire interior of the motor, 2nd failure was caught relatively early and by random chance otherwise it too would have been too trashed to determine anything from)The t2's OMP system has been completely removed and is always run at a 1:1 ratio, it also has a 16 gallon fuel capacity so that would be 16ozs of premix per tank.
1 gallon = 128 fluid ounces so a 1:1 ratio with a 16 gallon fuel tank is a 128:1 ratio of fuel:premix. I've run a 256:1 ratio (1:2, oz oil:gal gas). I switched to a 128:1 ratio really after an indepth conversation with a few important people, some personal experiences, and other aspects that generally don't apply to rx8 environments. It's also just easier when they sell premix in 16oz containers and my fuel tanks are 16 gallons LOL, but that just happened to be a side effect of my switch rather then a reason.
I have no cats, resonators or mufflers on either rotary car, both smoke on a cold startup however it's not oil burning it's excess fuel, this only happens on days with an ambient temp below 60degrees and the smoke last approx 10 seconds. Above 60 degrees they start with no smoke.
Both are always filled with castrol gtx 20w50, in the rare occasion that they are driven outside of march-august the oil is switched to 10w30, they rarely are driven at those times tho, mainly only to either a meet i'd like to be at or to a bodyshop. They are never dynoed or pushed on anything other then 20w50.
When i get out of work I'll go through my documents and try to find the exact changes, i'm also sending an email to japan right now to see if a can get the actual metallurgical changes listing. Off the top of my head I'm pretty sure the application and construction of the rotor housing surface material was changed, the rotors themselves were changed, the seals i'm 50/50 on, and there's a few other minor things.
Like i said though, I'll attempt to provide more in-depth detail later tonight.
hope it was useful,
kevin.
04-09-2009, 06:24 PM
#207
Certified Mazda Tech
so who wants to see what I do all day? (aka pics of nycgps' motor pull, and some pics of another one of my customer's rx8 in for the same reason)
I only got to work on nycgps' car for 2 hours today (3-5), but it went rather smoothly, motor was supposed to arrive this morning, would've been on the road again, but the freight company got messed up and didnt deliver until 2pm. Luckily i think i made up for some of the loss of time.
hope you guys enjoy the pics, serial number pic is in there too, #468718 fyi.
edit: LMFAO, forgot the link:
NYCGPS' Motor Replacement
kevin.
I only got to work on nycgps' car for 2 hours today (3-5), but it went rather smoothly, motor was supposed to arrive this morning, would've been on the road again, but the freight company got messed up and didnt deliver until 2pm. Luckily i think i made up for some of the loss of time.
hope you guys enjoy the pics, serial number pic is in there too, #468718 fyi.
edit: LMFAO, forgot the link:
NYCGPS' Motor Replacement
kevin.
Last edited by teknics; 04-09-2009 at 06:43 PM.
04-09-2009, 07:50 PM
#208
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why is this thread recommending outboard TC-w3 oil?
https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tech-garage-22/gas-oil-premix-thread-99636/page3/
a few posts down made by nycgps
04-09-2009, 07:56 PM
#209
Metatron
iTrader: (1)
It's an old thread, most premix info came from the oldschool RX-7 sites, where they found what worked for them by trial and error.
Boat oil may not be 'optimal', but it's still a lot better than nothing......
Boat oil may not be 'optimal', but it's still a lot better than nothing......
04-09-2009, 08:02 PM
#210
so who wants to see what I do all day? (aka pics of nycgps' motor pull, and some pics of another one of my customer's rx8 in for the same reason)
I only got to work on nycgps' car for 2 hours today (3-5), but it went rather smoothly, motor was supposed to arrive this morning, would've been on the road again, but the freight company got messed up and didnt deliver until 2pm. Luckily i think i made up for some of the loss of time.
hope you guys enjoy the pics, serial number pic is in there too, #468718 fyi.
edit: LMFAO, forgot the link:
NYCGPS' Motor Replacement
kevin.
I only got to work on nycgps' car for 2 hours today (3-5), but it went rather smoothly, motor was supposed to arrive this morning, would've been on the road again, but the freight company got messed up and didnt deliver until 2pm. Luckily i think i made up for some of the loss of time.
hope you guys enjoy the pics, serial number pic is in there too, #468718 fyi.
edit: LMFAO, forgot the link:
NYCGPS' Motor Replacement
kevin.
everytime I go to Wayne.. it wouldn't be Wayne Mazda if I didn't see atleast 2-3 RX8's on the lifts at all times!!.. lol
anyway, my car is gone.. so thanks kevin for the work you did on it!
04-09-2009, 08:20 PM
#211
Certified Mazda Tech
you can get an 08-09 new speed3 for cheap as the 2011 speed3 is on the way and there is no 2010 speed3. Personally if it was AWD or RWD i'd own one instead of my evo, love that motor.kevin.
04-09-2009, 08:22 PM
#212
so who wants to see what I do all day? (aka pics of nycgps' motor pull, and some pics of another one of my customer's rx8 in for the same reason)
I only got to work on nycgps' car for 2 hours today (3-5), but it went rather smoothly, motor was supposed to arrive this morning, would've been on the road again, but the freight company got messed up and didnt deliver until 2pm. Luckily i think i made up for some of the loss of time.
hope you guys enjoy the pics, serial number pic is in there too, #468718 fyi.
edit: LMFAO, forgot the link:
NYCGPS' Motor Replacement
kevin.
I only got to work on nycgps' car for 2 hours today (3-5), but it went rather smoothly, motor was supposed to arrive this morning, would've been on the road again, but the freight company got messed up and didnt deliver until 2pm. Luckily i think i made up for some of the loss of time.
hope you guys enjoy the pics, serial number pic is in there too, #468718 fyi.
edit: LMFAO, forgot the link:
NYCGPS' Motor Replacement
kevin.
my motor !!!!!! AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW !!!!!!!
NOOOOOOOOOooooooooo !!!! DONT GOOOOO ! ....................
SIKE !!!!!
GET OUT OF MY FRAME YOU #468718 !!!! YOu'RE NOTHING BUT FAILURE ! DIE !
Come on my new baby ... my precious ...
----end ----
Oh yes, Kevin, Gonna pm u in a bit. dont forget something
04-09-2009, 08:26 PM
#213
Yea sad news about your car, what kind of replacement you considering? I'm a big fan of the speed 3 you can get an 08-09 new speed3 for cheap as the 2011 speed3 is on the way and there is no 2010 speed3. Personally if it was AWD or RWD i'd own one instead of my evo, love that motor.
kevin.
you can get an 08-09 new speed3 for cheap as the 2011 speed3 is on the way and there is no 2010 speed3. Personally if it was AWD or RWD i'd own one instead of my evo, love that motor.kevin.
my next car will be RWD and I'll probably be made fun of for it ..... but it's quicker then an 8, has much better MPG, and I could bring the top down!
guess~!
PS: IT IS NOT A CROSSFIRE.
Last edited by alz0rz; 04-09-2009 at 08:31 PM.
04-09-2009, 08:29 PM
#214
yeah at one point I was seriously considering a Speed 3 but I have my reservations against FWD... just not my thing. but those things are freaking ROCKETS
my next car will be RWD and I'll probably be made fun of for it ..... but it's quicker then an 8, has much better MPG, and I could bring the top down!
guess~!
my next car will be RWD and I'll probably be made fun of for it ..... but it's quicker then an 8, has much better MPG, and I could bring the top down!
guess~!
THIS IS YOUR ANSWER, RIGHT ?
04-09-2009, 08:30 PM
#215
Certified Mazda Tech
yeah at one point I was seriously considering a Speed 3 but I have my reservations against FWD... just not my thing. but those things are freaking ROCKETS
my next car will be RWD and I'll probably be made fun of for it ..... but it's quicker then an 8, has much better MPG, and I could bring the top down!
guess~!
my next car will be RWD and I'll probably be made fun of for it ..... but it's quicker then an 8, has much better MPG, and I could bring the top down!
guess~!
.Rwd anything sounds good to me, i was considering a new 335i, twin turbo, rwd available as awd, comfy, no pay maintenance....evo won out.
kevin.
04-09-2009, 08:33 PM
#217
lol, the rotary is the red-headed stepchild of automotive lol all us rotor heads should be made fun of for loving the pain of owning a rotary .
Rwd anything sounds good to me, i was considering a new 335i, twin turbo, rwd available as awd, comfy, no pay maintenance....evo won out.
kevin.
.Rwd anything sounds good to me, i was considering a new 335i, twin turbo, rwd available as awd, comfy, no pay maintenance....evo won out.
kevin.
but on that note another resemblance my next car will have to the 8 would be it lovess to be revved pretty darn high!\
ps: yes, it would have a good ol fashioned 4 banger.
04-09-2009, 11:17 PM
#219
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I found some Briggs and Stratton 2 cycle premix oil in the garage last weekend but im not so sure about it.
I looked for Amisoil today but none of the parts store here in KC have it...I think ill have to settle for something like penzoil until i can order some amisoil
04-10-2009, 08:17 AM
#222
Registered
PM me an address but I'll have wife, 2 little kids, and father-in-law so it's not very likely. But I always keep an eye out for nice cars while I'm on vacation 'cause I miss driving my 8. Not so bad this time, 'though, since I don't hate the low end torque in my FIL's G35.
04-10-2009, 09:26 AM
#223
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would this be decent for premix?
http://www.napaonline.com/MasterPage...le+Oil+-+Lucas
Lucas 2-cycle
2 Cycle Oil - Lucas
Click on image to see enlarged view
Attributes:
Manufacturer:Lucas Oil Products
Inc.
Size:1 pt
Oil Base:Semi-Synthetic
Features & Benefits:Advanced Technology TCW3 "Low Smoke" 2-Cycle Oil Formulated From Special Blend of Mineral Oil
Polybutene & Low Ash Additive System
Recommended For All Air & Liquid Cooled 2-Stroke Engines & Lower Sp
Product Features:Specially Designed to Prevent Carbon Deposits to Piston Rings
Skirt
Crown & Under Crown Areas & Prevents Exhaust Port Blocking
Pre-Diluted w/ Special Solvent to Facilitate Mixing w/ Gasolines At Al
Meets or Exceeds Specifications:TCW3
http://www.napaonline.com/MasterPage...le+Oil+-+Lucas
Lucas 2-cycle
2 Cycle Oil - Lucas
Click on image to see enlarged view
Attributes:
Manufacturer:Lucas Oil Products
Inc.
Size:1 pt
Oil Base:Semi-Synthetic
Features & Benefits:Advanced Technology TCW3 "Low Smoke" 2-Cycle Oil Formulated From Special Blend of Mineral Oil
Polybutene & Low Ash Additive System
Recommended For All Air & Liquid Cooled 2-Stroke Engines & Lower Sp
Product Features:Specially Designed to Prevent Carbon Deposits to Piston Rings
Skirt
Crown & Under Crown Areas & Prevents Exhaust Port Blocking
Pre-Diluted w/ Special Solvent to Facilitate Mixing w/ Gasolines At Al
Meets or Exceeds Specifications:TCW3
04-10-2009, 09:37 AM
#224
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Kevin,
Thanks for posting in the forum! It's great to have someone with your background and experience with rotary's give us new guys some rock-solid advice. I am asking for your recommendation specific to a daily driven RX-8. I drive my car like most on here...traffic, highway, and try to redline it at least 2 or 3 times when I'm out depending on the traffic.
I premix right now with 4oz Amsoil Saber 2 cycle oil and will do an oil change soon, (my car has 4,800 miles).
After reading this post, I will go to 6-8oz of premix from this point forward.
Do you recommend 20w50 for Summer or will 10w40 be good enough?
I was going to use Amsoil 10w40 synthetic but would like your opinion on this.
For 20w50 I was thinking of Castrol GTX....I do plan on some track days this Summer.
Thanks for any info you can provide.
Thanks for posting in the forum! It's great to have someone with your background and experience with rotary's give us new guys some rock-solid advice. I am asking for your recommendation specific to a daily driven RX-8. I drive my car like most on here...traffic, highway, and try to redline it at least 2 or 3 times when I'm out depending on the traffic.
I premix right now with 4oz Amsoil Saber 2 cycle oil and will do an oil change soon, (my car has 4,800 miles).
After reading this post, I will go to 6-8oz of premix from this point forward.
Do you recommend 20w50 for Summer or will 10w40 be good enough?
I was going to use Amsoil 10w40 synthetic but would like your opinion on this.
For 20w50 I was thinking of Castrol GTX....I do plan on some track days this Summer.
Thanks for any info you can provide.