robrecht

Kevin (or anyone), do you know the difference in the OMP flow rates between Mazda's original flash and the current one for the Series I RX-8? What about the flow rate on the 2009 engines? Some 2009 owners have reported much greater use of oil, which makes me wonder if the flow has been increased even more with the 3rd 'injector'.

teknics

the squirters are the fundamental flaw in the whole thing, they "drip" oil into the chamber leading to clean/lubed areas on the surface that are only a few mm's wide. Look at any used rotor housing that wasn't premixed for like 40k, youll see a bright chrome line from where the oil injectors are and the rest of the housing will be toasted.

Until the squirters can actually fully mist the oil they will not work good enough, sure you keep adding stuff on top and they'll work better, but theyll never do it efficient or safely until they are actual injectors.

Engineers don't tend to radically change their designer systems, the OMP is mazda's baby they dont toy with it much, i was surprised at how much it changed for '09 but even then in reality it's still they same oil dripping action in the chambers, not good for fully spreading out the oil.

I've talked to my fair share of the rotary team (the translation makes it difficult) and most have had positive reactions to my ideas, the problem is how much re-tooling it would require just to test.

kevin.

rotaryPilot

What about clogged fuel pumps due to premix? What about carbon deposits due to premix ?

robrecht

Dirty 4-stroke from the OMP and gas is much more likely to cause carbon deposits tha a proper premix, which should also help reduce and prevent carbon build-up. Very few people (nycgps is one) have reported any fuel pump problems, but it is something to keep an eye on.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

You get more crap from gas pump than Premix.

Anyway a good premix shouldn't clog any fuel filters.

So far I only seen clogged filters with one brand of premix. and its not Idemitsu. and that "Brand" of premix" you can actually see residue inside the bottle !

I replaced my fuel pump once, but it was more like a "better be safe than sorry" thing. cuz I used to do a lot of "fuel up only when it runs out of fuel" thing, which put a lot of stress on the pump itself.

rotaryPilot

^ Yes ok , very few people reported problem with fuel pumps but this can be very serious. What about not realizing the clogged fuel pump and having a 30% reduce in fuel output ? I guess that you are running lean until you discover you are really in trouble.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

If your fuel pump has a problem you will notice it.

Especially when your fuel level is low and you're on Full throttle @ high rpm. You might get some "chokes" and tons of misfire for no reason.

the fuel filter itself is not really "All that" useful imo. its the pump itself thats going bad. the stock pump suck ***. (ok for street ... thats it)

if you do a lot of "fill it up only when the light is on", that means your pump has gone thru lots of "high output" status, high status happens when your fuel drops below 1/4 tank or under certain driving condition(floor it) but when it happens @ low fuel, your pump is high but no fuel around it to cool it off. your pump will die even faster.

teknics

a 30% recudtion in fuel output will trigger a CEL. If you dont notice the CEL and either put 2 and 2 together or bring it to be serviced then you deserve to be in trouble.... however this situation wont occur (see next note)

The same rule applies to premix that applies to fuel. You want good clean premix. The oil will not clog your fuel filters, the oil can break down into just as small a particle as fuel, and is easier to push so it puts no excess strain on the pump either. Nevermind the fact that the ratio of oil particles to fuel particles will be at least near 256:1 if not above. Hell there are tons of 2-stroke engines out there that HAVE to put 2-stroke in their gas, and generally in much larger ratios (16:1 etc)....they dont have special fuel filters why would the rx need one?

Carbon deposits do NOT occur because of premix, they are PREVENTED by premix. The premix does NOT BURN, if it did you'd get tons of blue smoke. I've gone into detail about it before but basically fuel is 100x more combustible then premix oil. If the temperatures and conditions inside the combustion chamber are able to ignite the premix then something is seriously wrong. All the premix does is fully coat the rotor and rotor housing surface in a film of oil so as to PREVENT carbon from being able to cling to any surfaces. Again reference the fact that there ARE 2-stroke motors in the world, none of which suffer from carbonization problems internally and again they run larger ratios of oil:gas.

nevermind the 30+years of rotary enthusiasts running premix and not noticing either symptom you mention as a regular cause of premixing. I've been premixing my vehicles for 10 years now and have yet to see one downside of premix. Hell i love cracking open a motor to rebuild or refresh after a few seasons and seeing a bright shiny housing surface staring back at me rather then a blackened, carboned, burned surface which will need replacement or if not replaced will result in loss of compression and therefore power.

Nothing except possibly the system i described, can beat the results of premixing, nothing.

edit: and in addition, robrecht is correct, injecting dirty, burned, used, and basically damaged 4-stroke oil into your motor is a bad thing. Nevermind the fact that the way it is "injected" is by dripping small drops into an engine spinning up to 9k rpm, thats 54,000r/sec try dripping a little droplet of water on something spinning that fast and tell me what type of distribution of fluid you notice, ill tell you right now it's going to be a thin, undistributed line of fluid, the same results you see on the interior surface of the rotor housings when rebuilding. Add to that people trying to stretch oil changes from 3k to 5k+ miles and the situation quickly deteriorates into havoc. The reason your motor oil turns black is because there are contaminants in it and it has been broken down, when this oil goes into your motor and is heated the oil survives, the contaminants burn into the rotor housings and rotor itself. Transference of contamination is the technical term.

kevin.

rotaryPilot

Thanks kevin for your substantiated answer it really made me understand a lot concerning premix.

teknics

hopefully it helped understand the benefits. There's a lot of "fog" and "mystery" around premix, mostly cause as everyone has said, no one likes adding fluids to their car nevermind pouring some "mystery miracle" into their gas tank.

kevin.

BDC

+1. Good post Kevin even though the rotations/sec math is backwards. It's actually 150 rotations/sec at 9krpm of the crankshaft, which is 50 times/sec for rotor rotation. Still hugely substantial and your point still stands IMO.

10 year premixer here.

B

BDC

The only way that can exist I think is from willful ignorance of those of us who've been using it for years and years who can demonstrate its benefits over the factory 4-stroke oil metering system (and there's a truckload of us!)

teknics

LMAO, that was a pretty basics mistake, ill correct it in a moment. Glad to see another 10 yr premix around, especially on the rx8 forums. I've been trying to transfer the applicable knowledge we've gained from the past RE's to these guys, try to make their journey less trial and error and more results.

Preach on! So many rotary tips have become "guarded secrets" which just isn't necessary, knowledge is power. Sure premix isnt a guarded secret but the reasons and results of premixing seem to be unacknowledged, more of a "premix just cause d00d"

kevin.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

teknics - if you have not done it already you should post your thoughts (or cut and paste from here) over in the 'premix' thread .

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

but theree are too many 'current' rotary owners act like the following

blah.

i know i will premix as soon as i get my car back.

teknics

lol, and there always are those people, they tend to fade away eventually.

Just a random note since Brettus posted and i noticed his signature, if you upgrade your car to a turbo you DEFINITELY want to premix, the turbo will cook the oil even worse then it already gets and then the lubrication of the engine from the omp would be absolutely useless.

kevin.

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

Dude you talked all kind of smack about how you had such and such miles with your awesome synthetic and you talked all kind of smack about how badass your Idimitsu (sic) premix was and the fact is that it didn't do you damn bit of good.

So now you will talk smack about running premix from the get go and when this engine fails then what will you say? I misstated and have been further educated and I agree (not that it means ****) that premixing from the start may make your new engine last longer but the fact that you really don't know **** still stands. All of this is speculation as there are so many variables that determine the longevity of an engine.

I'm just tired of all the "experts" making bold statements that are based on dick.

alz0rz

iTrader: (41)

ignorance is bliss

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

/\ alzorz avatar is bliss

teknics

Speculation? a metal seal against a metal sealing surface with insufficient lubrication on said metal surface will cause loss of ability to seal over time. This is a fact.

All Mazda OMP Systems have provided insufficient quality and insufficient distribution of lubrication of the rotor housings in ALL rotary motors. This is a fact.

Premixing 2-stroke equally distributes a protective oil layer along the entire rotor housing surface as well as the rotor and it's seals. This is a fact.

If you'd like to argue the above facts I can begin snapping pictures of non-premixed motor's rotor housings vs. premixed engines rotor housings after tear-down. The evidence is easily visible, although I'd prefer to show it to you in person so that I may bear witness to your head jumping up your own ***.

as for the "expert" comment....I have my official mazda rotary engine and rotary engine management systems certification, do you?

BTW: still not saying the OMP or not premixing caused this *specific* problem...not sure exactly how we got where we are in this topic but whatever, just expressing the lackluster quality of the OMP as a whole and providing reasons/proof that it is the OMP itself not it's programmed flow amount/time/etc that is a rotary problem

kevin.

ignorance is bliss, knowledge is power. I think i found a slogan.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

You still dont get the idea of "I didnt start premix until my 3rd year of ownership"

and you still dont get the idea of "damage is already done."

Im not talkin smack, what I said was pure facts.

go re-read the reason why Mazda released the recall flash.

I might not know ****, but at least Im not an ignorant *** like you're.

You cant take facts?? Too bad. Take your rage somewhere else.

Nubo

That would be cool.

DOMINION

^+1 on the pix. I would like to see the damages too

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

I am an ***, I admit that. I also admit when I'm wrong.

Look teknics, you seem very knowledgable. But even you cannot predict which motors will last and which ones will not because of the *** load of variables that come into play. I'm not argueing premix helps but its not a magic fix. If you go back and read a lot of NYCGPS's posts, he was adamate that running synthetic was better at protecting the Renesis vs. Dino oil. Synthetic or no synthetic, the Renesis' are failing early. I'm too lazy to go back quoting posts but he constantly bragged about how his motor was gonna last because he took such great care of it and redlined, premixed, used bad *** synthetic oil, blah, blah, blah. He did so much research on oils, blah, blah, blah.

There are plenty of premix guys here that had had blown motors so premixing is not the end all fix.

I am now premixing, Somehow I think its a waste of money but what the hell, I probably don't have a lotta time left on the second motor anyway. I will stick to my castrol GTX though.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

Why dont you go ahead and quote those who said they will use Dino only and and no premix but then motor still blew ?

So if what you said is true, nothing should help this motor, it will blow anyway. We might as well just pour some Mazola in it and call it a day ?

too bad your motor sucked, but why hate Synthetic and Premix ?? Have u ever thought that your motor might be a bad build from factory ? And the 2nd one u got is good thats why it lasted so long?

For some reason you just wanna blame everything on Mobil1(+ the hate of all synthetic). but if that makes you feel better. so be it.

and I thought you said Premix is useless? Why using it now ? Your motor gonna blow anyway, right ?

Have fun with your GTX. I have nothing against ppl that use Mineral Based oil, you use yours, I use mine. Stay that way. everyone stay cool.