Confirmed : NYCGPS's Motor is dead~
04-06-2009, 01:19 PM
#126
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I gotta say it again and again.
Engine failures happen to EVERY SINGLE car out there.
Nissan's VQ25? Even newest Honda K20A having some kind of problems (not as bad as Nissan)
People are so fed up about Rotary is Because Rotary is *special*, and people pay *special* attention to *special* things. Thats why it makes Rotary's problem really sound like bigger than it is.
I still think the biggest problem is the Ford's 5w20 crap. Other parts of the world never had as much engine problem as North America market does. Why ? You go ahead and ask people working on Rotaries in Japan, they will tell you its crazy to go for 5w20. they use at LEAST 0w30. most will go as far as 45.
Mazda's OMP rate is pretty lame too, but cant really blame them, we gotta thx EPA for that.
Engine failures happen to EVERY SINGLE car out there.
Nissan's VQ25? Even newest Honda K20A having some kind of problems (not as bad as Nissan)
People are so fed up about Rotary is Because Rotary is *special*, and people pay *special* attention to *special* things. Thats why it makes Rotary's problem really sound like bigger than it is.
I still think the biggest problem is the Ford's 5w20 crap. Other parts of the world never had as much engine problem as North America market does. Why ? You go ahead and ask people working on Rotaries in Japan, they will tell you its crazy to go for 5w20. they use at LEAST 0w30. most will go as far as 45.
Mazda's OMP rate is pretty lame too, but cant really blame them, we gotta thx EPA for that.
04-06-2009, 01:24 PM
#127
I gotta say it again and again.
Engine failures happen to EVERY SINGLE car out there.
Nissan's VQ25? Even newest Honda K20A having some kind of problems (not as bad as Nissan)
People are so fed up about Rotary is Because Rotary is *special*, and people pay *special* attention to *special* things. Thats why it makes Rotary's problem really sound like bigger than it is.
I still think the biggest problem is the Ford's 5w20 crap. Other parts of the world never had as much engine problem as North America market does. Why ? You go ahead and ask people working on Rotaries in Japan, they will tell you its crazy to go for 5w20. they use at LEAST 0w30. most will go as far as 45.
Mazda's OMP rate is pretty lame too, but cant really blame them, we gotta thx EPA for that.
Engine failures happen to EVERY SINGLE car out there.
Nissan's VQ25? Even newest Honda K20A having some kind of problems (not as bad as Nissan)
People are so fed up about Rotary is Because Rotary is *special*, and people pay *special* attention to *special* things. Thats why it makes Rotary's problem really sound like bigger than it is.
I still think the biggest problem is the Ford's 5w20 crap. Other parts of the world never had as much engine problem as North America market does. Why ? You go ahead and ask people working on Rotaries in Japan, they will tell you its crazy to go for 5w20. they use at LEAST 0w30. most will go as far as 45.
Mazda's OMP rate is pretty lame too, but cant really blame them, we gotta thx EPA for that.
hell I think I was the first one to point out VQ25's problem(@ this forum) when some n00b *** ppl bitched about rotary blows up every 30k miles.
5w20 is crap thats for sure. but I think my engine problem has nothing to do with it, I use 10w40. Its more like garbage OMP rate that fuxked it up.
04-06-2009, 01:38 PM
#128
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Just to clear things up Im not Saying "OMFG ROTARY SUX0RZ IT BLOWS UP EVERY 5 MILES Blah blah blah"
hell I think I was the first one to point out VQ25's problem(@ this forum) when some n00b *** ppl bitched about rotary blows up every 30k miles.
5w20 is crap thats for sure. but I think my engine problem has nothing to do with it, I use 10w40. Its more like garbage OMP rate that fuxked it up.
hell I think I was the first one to point out VQ25's problem(@ this forum) when some n00b *** ppl bitched about rotary blows up every 30k miles.
5w20 is crap thats for sure. but I think my engine problem has nothing to do with it, I use 10w40. Its more like garbage OMP rate that fuxked it up.
Not cold enough to re-produce the problem.
04-07-2009, 01:35 AM
#130
Super Moderator
While I agree with what you said, I am pretty sure the cost would be so prohibitive that it would not be possible.
Not only are you talking a new PCM and wiring, but also two EMOP's that are about $1200, then all the fittings, where would you pick up the engine oil from.
Then how are you going to drill for a third (middle leading) injector hole without debris going into the rotor chamber?, you would really have to rebuild the engine with 09 everything!.
One EMOP does the existing 4 side by side Trailing oil weeper nozzles and the other EMOP does the 2 Leading (middle) nozzles.
I also think by Mazda relocating the oil filter this gave them top engine space for the TWO EMOP's to be mounted on the metal bracket.
Anyway, IMO far too much cost and fooling around to even consider this as a Mod for S1 RX-8's
Ash
04-07-2009, 07:40 AM
#131
Certified Mazda Tech
Kevin, I was thinking more about your answer from a member about using 09 EMOP's in Series I RX-8's...
While I agree with what you said, I am pretty sure the cost would be so prohibitive that it would not be possible.
Not only are you talking a new PCM and wiring, but also two EMOP's that are about $1200, then all the fittings, where would you pick up the engine oil from.
Then how are you going to drill for a third (middle leading) injector hole without debris going into the rotor chamber?, you would really have to rebuild the engine with 09 everything!.
One EMOP does the existing 4 side by side Trailing oil weeper nozzles and the other EMOP does the 2 Leading (middle) nozzles.
I also think by Mazda relocating the oil filter this gave them top engine space for the TWO EMOP's to be mounted on the metal bracket.
Anyway, IMO far too much cost and fooling around to even consider this as a Mod for S1 RX-8's
Ash
While I agree with what you said, I am pretty sure the cost would be so prohibitive that it would not be possible.
Not only are you talking a new PCM and wiring, but also two EMOP's that are about $1200, then all the fittings, where would you pick up the engine oil from.
Then how are you going to drill for a third (middle leading) injector hole without debris going into the rotor chamber?, you would really have to rebuild the engine with 09 everything!.
One EMOP does the existing 4 side by side Trailing oil weeper nozzles and the other EMOP does the 2 Leading (middle) nozzles.
I also think by Mazda relocating the oil filter this gave them top engine space for the TWO EMOP's to be mounted on the metal bracket.
Anyway, IMO far too much cost and fooling around to even consider this as a Mod for S1 RX-8's
Ash
kevin.
04-07-2009, 09:31 AM
#132
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Man... missed opportunity.
Sorry about the engine though.
04-07-2009, 12:14 PM
#134
Sorry to hear that nycgps. Ironic that the evangelist of higher weight oils succombs to seal issues.
"I'm not a fan of irony." - From the Earth to the Moon
I guess I'll be just that much more religious about my own pre-mix and 5w-30 changes!
"I'm not a fan of irony." - From the Earth to the Moon
I guess I'll be just that much more religious about my own pre-mix and 5w-30 changes!
04-07-2009, 03:18 PM
#141
Yeah, the orange FIT.
It has only 5K miles on it O_o
Plus it has HDD Navigation hand installed by the 1337 NYCGPS
probably gonna sell it around 15 or so. Market for this car is still high. Im gonna list it out this week. then hunt for da next ride.
reason for selling : Its a manual, and GF "simply" refused to learn to drive a stick ... argh ...
It has only 5K miles on it O_o
Plus it has HDD Navigation hand installed by the 1337 NYCGPS
probably gonna sell it around 15 or so. Market for this car is still high. Im gonna list it out this week. then hunt for da next ride.
reason for selling : Its a manual, and GF "simply" refused to learn to drive a stick ... argh ...
04-07-2009, 08:03 PM
#142
motor had 8.5 all around on rear rotor, front rotor was 7.0, 6.4, 5.4
(IIRC i just pmed him the right #'s and already forgot them)
Basically he had come in a few times for stalling concerns and other things. We had already decarbed and all. No CEL's. Car was running lean (about 11-12% LFT, normal SFT) just not enough to set off a CEL. Couple other data points I noticed that wouldn't be useful for you guys lol but there were small signs. Noticed a quick short start when warm would throw it to 750rpm, stumble down to 500 sometimes stall, then catch itself and idle at 700. Test drove it and it felt off to me, not too bad but something was missing down low, to me it was more noticeable in the "i have to pass this guy real quick and get over" power range.
As for what actually failed internally, nothing broken it seems. Personally I doubt it had anything to do with oil, generally we see rear rotor failures because the rear rotor always runs hotter internally. I'm thinking simply abnormal excessive wear of combustion surface and apex seals, most likely not really traceable to a specific reason.
i'll see if i find anything when replacing it.
As for a "mark" on the motor....it has a serial number I can write it down and post it when i pull it out.
Also, yes your car will be down for a while due to timing and the trans. Basically authorization and shipment of the motor can't start until I can fully diag the trans which takes a lot of back and forth between me and mazda.
About the trans, forgot to PM you this question, have you ever replaced your clutch? your pedal is very soft and the clutch grabs when its like 1mm off the ground which is abnormal. If you havent replaced the clutch, are you sure the clutch line was bled properly when the braided line was installed? In all honesty a pedal like this could cause hard shifting, since you have no problem with the other gears it's not going to be the cause of your reverse problem but just wondering whats up with the clutch.
kevin.
(IIRC i just pmed him the right #'s and already forgot them)
Basically he had come in a few times for stalling concerns and other things. We had already decarbed and all. No CEL's. Car was running lean (about 11-12% LFT, normal SFT) just not enough to set off a CEL. Couple other data points I noticed that wouldn't be useful for you guys lol but there were small signs. Noticed a quick short start when warm would throw it to 750rpm, stumble down to 500 sometimes stall, then catch itself and idle at 700. Test drove it and it felt off to me, not too bad but something was missing down low, to me it was more noticeable in the "i have to pass this guy real quick and get over" power range.
As for what actually failed internally, nothing broken it seems. Personally I doubt it had anything to do with oil, generally we see rear rotor failures because the rear rotor always runs hotter internally. I'm thinking simply abnormal excessive wear of combustion surface and apex seals, most likely not really traceable to a specific reason.
i'll see if i find anything when replacing it.
As for a "mark" on the motor....it has a serial number I can write it down and post it when i pull it out.
Also, yes your car will be down for a while due to timing and the trans. Basically authorization and shipment of the motor can't start until I can fully diag the trans which takes a lot of back and forth between me and mazda.
About the trans, forgot to PM you this question, have you ever replaced your clutch? your pedal is very soft and the clutch grabs when its like 1mm off the ground which is abnormal. If you havent replaced the clutch, are you sure the clutch line was bled properly when the braided line was installed? In all honesty a pedal like this could cause hard shifting, since you have no problem with the other gears it's not going to be the cause of your reverse problem but just wondering whats up with the clutch.
kevin.
And you don't think the low OMP rate from day one had anything to do with it.
Come on... why is there an extended warrenty?
04-07-2009, 08:20 PM
#143
Certified Mazda Tech
This idea they have of pumping from the oil pan is the #1 problem, the oil cant be pushed to any real velocity, thats why the OMP's are on top now, less loss of velocity. They keep band-aiding a failed system.
Have you ever seen the OMP squirters spray oil? It's pathetic.
You still think it's just the OMP "rate" being the main culprit? Alrighty then...
I'm thinking change of internal materials without enough real-world testing to determine the amount of lubrication needed led to what we're seeing now. Unfortunately they want to stick with these materials so they will now try to up the lubrication to the point these materials need.
kevin.
Last edited by teknics; 04-08-2009 at 06:37 PM.
04-07-2009, 09:23 PM
#145
Certified Mazda Tech
without premix and REAL oil injectors, they'll suffer, hopefully mazda has determined the excess oil needed, and has finally covered 3 thin slivers of the housing surface with their oil "drippers".
I should design my own real-life OMP system, real injectors in the intake tract with an ECU control tied into eshaft sensor and TPS and a few other choice signals. I do have it rather mapped out in my head, i find myself staring at the OMP system constantly, it has always been the bum leg of the engine. if they made a reservoir larger enough and had a decent electric oil pump they could make it so when you get your oil changed this is also filled with 2-stroke and your good for another 5k miles of decent driving. Of course a low-level warning would have to happen, and perhaps enable the system to use a small amount of regular oil until the 2-stroke is topped off (simple with a solenoid and a level sensor as long as the pump is plumbed nicely and is contained either in or very near the oil reservoir.
meh dont want to ramble on too much...
edit: just thought of something else, with direct injection technology coming along the ideal setup would be one small direct injectable fuel injector spraying fresh 2-stroke into each cyclical chamber (int,comp,comb,ext) having it time to spray just mS before the chamber is utilized (aka just before compression stroke starts which would coat between each of the 4 cycles as well as the interior of that cycle. It would look odd mounted on the motor . for the intake part you can mount the injector in the manifold, compression at top of motor area, combustion near plugs, exhaust would be difficult probably create a specific hole gap between intake and exhaust manifolds. No fuel/oil rails, pressurized reservoir connection at each. Hell you could probably cut that down to less injectors by overflowing them thereby providing a spreading of the oil film.
and thats the end of that thought lmao.
kevin.
I should design my own real-life OMP system, real injectors in the intake tract with an ECU control tied into eshaft sensor and TPS and a few other choice signals. I do have it rather mapped out in my head, i find myself staring at the OMP system constantly, it has always been the bum leg of the engine. if they made a reservoir larger enough and had a decent electric oil pump they could make it so when you get your oil changed this is also filled with 2-stroke and your good for another 5k miles of decent driving. Of course a low-level warning would have to happen, and perhaps enable the system to use a small amount of regular oil until the 2-stroke is topped off (simple with a solenoid and a level sensor as long as the pump is plumbed nicely and is contained either in or very near the oil reservoir.
meh dont want to ramble on too much...
edit: just thought of something else, with direct injection technology coming along the ideal setup would be one small direct injectable fuel injector spraying fresh 2-stroke into each cyclical chamber (int,comp,comb,ext) having it time to spray just mS before the chamber is utilized (aka just before compression stroke starts which would coat between each of the 4 cycles as well as the interior of that cycle. It would look odd mounted on the motor . for the intake part you can mount the injector in the manifold, compression at top of motor area, combustion near plugs, exhaust would be difficult probably create a specific hole gap between intake and exhaust manifolds. No fuel/oil rails, pressurized reservoir connection at each. Hell you could probably cut that down to less injectors by overflowing them thereby providing a spreading of the oil film.
and thats the end of that thought lmao.
kevin.
Last edited by teknics; 04-07-2009 at 09:39 PM.
04-07-2009, 10:01 PM
#146
without premix and REAL oil injectors, they'll suffer, hopefully mazda has determined the excess oil needed, and has finally covered 3 thin slivers of the housing surface with their oil "drippers".
I should design my own real-life OMP system, real injectors in the intake tract with an ECU control tied into eshaft sensor and TPS and a few other choice signals. I do have it rather mapped out in my head, i find myself staring at the OMP system constantly, it has always been the bum leg of the engine. if they made a reservoir larger enough and had a decent electric oil pump they could make it so when you get your oil changed this is also filled with 2-stroke and your good for another 5k miles of decent driving. Of course a low-level warning would have to happen, and perhaps enable the system to use a small amount of regular oil until the 2-stroke is topped off (simple with a solenoid and a level sensor as long as the pump is plumbed nicely and is contained either in or very near the oil reservoir.
meh dont want to ramble on too much...
edit: just thought of something else, with direct injection technology coming along the ideal setup would be one small direct injectable fuel injector spraying fresh 2-stroke into each cyclical chamber (int,comp,comb,ext) having it time to spray just mS before the chamber is utilized (aka just before compression stroke starts which would coat between each of the 4 cycles as well as the interior of that cycle. It would look odd mounted on the motor . for the intake part you can mount the injector in the manifold, compression at top of motor area, combustion near plugs, exhaust would be difficult probably create a specific hole gap between intake and exhaust manifolds. No fuel/oil rails, pressurized reservoir connection at each. Hell you could probably cut that down to less injectors by overflowing them thereby providing a spreading of the oil film.
and thats the end of that thought lmao.
kevin.
I should design my own real-life OMP system, real injectors in the intake tract with an ECU control tied into eshaft sensor and TPS and a few other choice signals. I do have it rather mapped out in my head, i find myself staring at the OMP system constantly, it has always been the bum leg of the engine. if they made a reservoir larger enough and had a decent electric oil pump they could make it so when you get your oil changed this is also filled with 2-stroke and your good for another 5k miles of decent driving. Of course a low-level warning would have to happen, and perhaps enable the system to use a small amount of regular oil until the 2-stroke is topped off (simple with a solenoid and a level sensor as long as the pump is plumbed nicely and is contained either in or very near the oil reservoir.
meh dont want to ramble on too much...
edit: just thought of something else, with direct injection technology coming along the ideal setup would be one small direct injectable fuel injector spraying fresh 2-stroke into each cyclical chamber (int,comp,comb,ext) having it time to spray just mS before the chamber is utilized (aka just before compression stroke starts which would coat between each of the 4 cycles as well as the interior of that cycle. It would look odd mounted on the motor . for the intake part you can mount the injector in the manifold, compression at top of motor area, combustion near plugs, exhaust would be difficult probably create a specific hole gap between intake and exhaust manifolds. No fuel/oil rails, pressurized reservoir connection at each. Hell you could probably cut that down to less injectors by overflowing them thereby providing a spreading of the oil film.
and thats the end of that thought lmao.
kevin.
Hell I bet some of the Rx-8 owners doesnt even wtf rotary engine is.
04-07-2009, 11:38 PM
#147
Certified Mazda Tech
I'm patenting this **** before mazda reads it.
kevin.
04-07-2009, 11:57 PM
#148
Super Moderator
without premix and REAL oil injectors, they'll suffer, hopefully mazda has determined the excess oil needed, and has finally covered 3 thin slivers of the housing surface with their oil "drippers".
I should design my own real-life OMP system, real injectors in the intake tract with an ECU control tied into eshaft sensor and TPS and a few other choice signals. I do have it rather mapped out in my head, i find myself staring at the OMP system constantly, it has always been the bum leg of the engine. if they made a reservoir larger enough and had a decent electric oil pump they could make it so when you get your oil changed this is also filled with 2-stroke and your good for another 5k miles of decent driving. Of course a low-level warning would have to happen, and perhaps enable the system to use a small amount of regular oil until the 2-stroke is topped off (simple with a solenoid and a level sensor as long as the pump is plumbed nicely and is contained either in or very near the oil reservoir.
meh dont want to ramble on too much...
edit: just thought of something else, with direct injection technology coming along the ideal setup would be one small direct injectable fuel injector spraying fresh 2-stroke into each cyclical chamber (int,comp,comb,ext) having it time to spray just mS before the chamber is utilized (aka just before compression stroke starts which would coat between each of the 4 cycles as well as the interior of that cycle. It would look odd mounted on the motor . for the intake part you can mount the injector in the manifold, compression at top of motor area, combustion near plugs, exhaust would be difficult probably create a specific hole gap between intake and exhaust manifolds. No fuel/oil rails, pressurized reservoir connection at each. Hell you could probably cut that down to less injectors by overflowing them thereby providing a spreading of the oil film.
and thats the end of that thought lmao.
kevin.
I should design my own real-life OMP system, real injectors in the intake tract with an ECU control tied into eshaft sensor and TPS and a few other choice signals. I do have it rather mapped out in my head, i find myself staring at the OMP system constantly, it has always been the bum leg of the engine. if they made a reservoir larger enough and had a decent electric oil pump they could make it so when you get your oil changed this is also filled with 2-stroke and your good for another 5k miles of decent driving. Of course a low-level warning would have to happen, and perhaps enable the system to use a small amount of regular oil until the 2-stroke is topped off (simple with a solenoid and a level sensor as long as the pump is plumbed nicely and is contained either in or very near the oil reservoir.
meh dont want to ramble on too much...
edit: just thought of something else, with direct injection technology coming along the ideal setup would be one small direct injectable fuel injector spraying fresh 2-stroke into each cyclical chamber (int,comp,comb,ext) having it time to spray just mS before the chamber is utilized (aka just before compression stroke starts which would coat between each of the 4 cycles as well as the interior of that cycle. It would look odd mounted on the motor . for the intake part you can mount the injector in the manifold, compression at top of motor area, combustion near plugs, exhaust would be difficult probably create a specific hole gap between intake and exhaust manifolds. No fuel/oil rails, pressurized reservoir connection at each. Hell you could probably cut that down to less injectors by overflowing them thereby providing a spreading of the oil film.
and thats the end of that thought lmao.
kevin.
Reading the 09 Service Highlights is interesting how the EMOPS are PCM controlled, the new OCV not only controls the oil but oil pressure to the EMOP's, and even has a Cleaning Mechanism if there is debris or foreign matter in the oil and pipes, somehow I think this system is % better than the previous.
When you think of oil Injecting into the rotor housing, if it "squirted" too much it may just miss the target, by weeping and seeping it would be hitting the Apex seal face and housing face...where it is needed.
It is obvious Mazda biggest error in the RENESIS 1 was not adding a 3rd injector and a MOP system that could handle the 6 injectors.
Time will tell for the 09's
04-07-2009, 11:59 PM
#149
Super Moderator
With a separate tank for 2 stroke or whatever, people would turn off.
Mazda have a hard enough time in getting owners to top off engine oil!..
Anything else just won't work.
04-08-2009, 12:01 AM
#150
Super Moderator
Yea exactly that's why i said theyd need an extra large reservoir and an ability to tap into the oil pan if low level situation occurs. The OMP right now doesnt use much oil and it is super-inefficient. If you were to use a setup in my style it would be a thousand times more efficient at lubricating because it is essentially premixing, just making it so it is done at oil changes rather then every time you get gas. Of course that would result in having to go to the dealer so they wouldn't charge you for the 2-stroke, it would be a "fluid top-off" nothing to "change" so no charge, but in reality you should always take the rotaries to the dealer if you're not knowledgable enough to do it yourself or have your local shop do it (they *would* charge for the 2-stroke and wouldnt have any on hand generally).
I'm patenting this **** before mazda reads it.
kevin.
I'm patenting this **** before mazda reads it.
kevin.
And you don't think Mazda have thought about all this before...
