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Strokercharged95GT 13b-REW Build

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Old 09-14-2018, 08:07 PM
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Well I think I am nearing the limit of what I can do on pump gas with water/methanol. Tired to add a degree or two at the top of the rev range to try and squeeze some more power out of this turbo and picked up a bit of knock at 6600 RPMs in 4th gear and let off (gold/brown line). The detonation started with the only cell above 22 psi in the log with leading timing between 8-10 degrees.

Ambient was like high 70s
30-115 mph pull with turbo at 20-22 psi.
Spun the tires up to 65+ mph in 2nd gear
A/F at 12:1 on tip in and ~10.7-11:1 once the turbo gets going
Timing at 10-11 total, gained some timing up top as the boost begins to drop off.
Manifold Temp went from about 115 to 145 on the pull

Its seems like no matter what I do, add boost, timing, or manipulate fuel, add/remove boost juice (even if no knocking detected), I just don't seem to be picking up any power. Seems like race fuel or a bigger turbo (or both) is my only option for more power.


Last edited by strokercharged95gt; 09-14-2018 at 08:12 PM.
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Old 09-14-2018, 08:26 PM
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When i went to E70 ... I went up 60HP at the same boost level without changing the timing at all. The EGT dropped about 20% as i remember. Worth a try if you have enough headroom on the injectors and pump. I guess this depends on if you can get E85 locally as well.
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Old 09-15-2018, 09:01 AM
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Well I went ahead and ordered my GM/Continental Flex Fuel Sensor (FFS), pigtail for FFS, -6AN/-6AN adapter for connection between return of FPR and FFS, both adapters for the FFS, and a 90 degree -6AN hose adapter from Amazon for $82. I hopefully will have this up and running by next weekend. I will just have to get some fuel cans and go get E85 from far away and mix it with my 93 octane.

Based on my last log at 7800 RPMs and 19 psi (turbo falls off above 7k) my secondary injectors are at 45%, which leaves me ~550cc/min injector left of the 1000cc/min secondary injector on each rotor.... I'm am using roughly 725+1000+450 (2,175 cc/min) max now.

If E85 uses roughly 40% more fuel, I would assume that E40-E45 requires 20% more fuel than 93 octane, E60 would require 30% more fuel than 93, etc....

2,175 cc/min x 1.2 (20% at E40) = 2,610 cc/min (I have 2,725 cc/min)
2,175 cc/min x 1.25 (25% at E50) = 2,719 cc/min (I have 2,725 cc/min)
2,175 cc/min x 1.3 (30% at E60) = 2,827 cc/min (I have 2,725 cc/min)

Based on these rough calculations, I would run out of fuel at 7,800 RPMs at 19 psi on E50 fuel. This would probably be okay since I shift around 7800-8200. I could either lower my rev limit or drop duty cycle on the turbo from 7,500 RPMs+. All of these calculations don't figure in the water/methanol injection. It should also be noted that all of these calculation have already figured in a max injector duty of 95% as shown in the logs and is not a true 100% max injector duty.

So it looks like I may make it there on the injectors with some small changes to the tune above 7,500 RPMs.

Will the single Bosch 044 be enough? Right now it holds 60 psi fuel pressure all the way to redline. Will it be able to keep up with a extra 20% of fuel be injected? We shall see..
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Old 09-15-2018, 03:48 PM
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Fuel pressure will drop at certain point meaning fuel pump wont flow enough if injectors are all wide open. One 044 flows about 275lph at 60psi wich is 4583cc worth of injectors total

i had a denso 265 before i upgraded wich was about 240lph at 60psi fuel pressure and fuel pressure was dropping at 15psi of boost. I have 6x1000cc injectors, was using around 4300cc at 15psi and fuel pressure was dropping from 58-59 to 50ish psi

now i have installed a walbro 460 with fuel return and fuel pressure is rock steady at 20psi boost, i didnt check the amount of fuel i use at 20psi but i guess its around 5000cc total

youll need 6500cc of fuel flow for both injectors and pump(390lph) (5000+30% you estimated on e85)

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Old 09-15-2018, 04:41 PM
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Real Street Performance did a fuel pump test and reported that the Bosch 044 put out 436 lbs/hr of fuel at 60 psi (4 bar), which is 4,578 cc/min (same as your calculation). Looks like I will be at least 1,000 cc/min short on the fuel pump. Looks like I will be ordering another pump once I get flex fuel working.

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Old 09-22-2018, 02:22 PM
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New Update:

Flex fuel sensor installed. A Racetrack gas station opened up in August about 7 miles from my house.
On 93 octane I was getting a 15% ethanol reading in adaptronics. I thought 10% was the max in 93 octane so I'm not sure if the sensor is a bit off, minimum reading of the sensor is 15%, or I have some abnormally high E content in my 93 octane.
I mixed Klotz into the E85 and added about 2 gallons into the tank. Adaptronics gradually showed ethanol content increase from 15% to about 28%. It took about 5-10 minutes because the main tank had to mix and the surge tank had to mix before hitting the lines, rail, FPR, and sensor.
The content value seems about right since I had about 7 gallons of 93 mixed with 2 gallons of E85.





Yellow wire is MVSS and Green is Flex Fuel on CAS3

Adaptronics seems to be over-compensating for fuel which is making it super rich. Not sure if its the un-godly heat (ambient over 90), adaptronics over compensating, or the flex fuel sensor is reading a bit higher content that what it actually is....
Another weird anomaly is that when I got WOT, the flex fuel % drops which may be just be reduced flow over the sensor when all the injectors are opening...
Looks like I will be pulling fuel some fuel out of the E85 fuel compensation map and trying some more pull later on when it cools down. I'm keeping the revs low for now until I can monitor fuel pressure and secondary duty cycle.
Knock values looked good.


Last edited by strokercharged95gt; 09-24-2018 at 07:07 AM.
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Old 09-22-2018, 08:09 PM
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Added another 5 gallons of E85 to the tank. Ethanol content is now up to 47%. Added some more fuel pressure, there is a big discrepancy between my Prosport gauge and my analog Fuelab gauge.
Have been re scaling all of my fuel maps since I will likely try and stay with a 40-50 E content for now.
Adaptronics log failed on the important run, but I was able to access the backup file.
Ambient was low 80s.
30-100 mph run
Duty Cycle was 40 or ~15 psi falling back down above 7k so I don't go lean maxing anything out.
I haven't added any timing yet until I get the fuel locked down.
Shooting for mid 11's on 15 psi and may drop it a bit more since you can lean it out on higher ethanol fuel.
No knock on the run.
Going to keep adding boost bit by bit until I run out of fuel pump or injector for now.


Have another data point for 3rd gear.

15 psi - 645 RPMs per sec/80 = 8.06 mph/s acceleration (E47)
17 psi - 686 RPMs per sec/80 = 8.56 mph/s acceleration (93)
19 psi - 732 RPMs per sec/80= 9.15 mph/s acceleration (93)
21 psi - 772 RPMs per sec/80 = 9.65 mph/s acceleration (93)



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Old 09-23-2018, 07:06 PM
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More stuff. 1.5 second log attached.
Moved up to 18 psi, finally the log saved on my computer so I can review fuel consumption.
Keeping revs to 7k for now and 18 psi.
Leading timing 12-14, somewhat more aggressive than previous tunes.
Reduced water/methanol down to like 500cc/min for now until I empty the tank (will only be using water in the future).
With the fuel pressure upped from a base of 40 to 45 psi, mid-40s ethanol content, and leaning things out to mid 11's, I am still seeing some significant room in the injectors and the fuel pressure still seems to be keeping up. 8,200 shifts will probably not work.
I am only using 20% of the last injector as of now.
Will keep fine tuning the maps and adding boost, next stop 21 psi.

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Old 09-24-2018, 09:53 AM
  #284  
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with this you solve your problems
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Old 09-24-2018, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by gamaliel31 View Post

with this you solve your problems
I already have a surge tank and one (1) Bosch 044 (see below). The problem is I need another fuel pump. Luckily I bought a surge tank with a second bung and I ordered a mount with a second slot for an additional fuel pump. I am thinking I may with another Bosch 044 style pump that IS E-85 compatible (Bosch 044 are technically not). Not sure who makes a good Bosch 044 style E85 compatible pump....

I plan to hook the relay up to my water injection pump (comes on at 11 psi). So I will only be using the second pump on boost above 11 psi. I will also be able to test the fuel pump with my AEM "test" button on the controls. Once the second pump is up and running I will likely be moving the ID1000s from the secondaries to the primaries (replacing the 725cc's) then putting ID 2000's in the secondary spot. Total injector capacity would go from 5500cc/min to 8,000 cc/min...

If anyone has a suggestion on a Bosch 044 E-85 compatible inline pump i'd like to hear it.



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Old 09-24-2018, 07:52 PM
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I think aem makes a pump similar to the 044 but e85 rated
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Old 09-25-2018, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by MaD666MaX View Post
I think aem makes a pump similar to the 044 but e85 rated
I just checked out the 400lph AEM inline Bosch 044 style pump and it is no joke. AEM had a test where they removed the check valve (I don't run a check valve now on my Bosch pump) and they where getting 390lph @ 70 psi (~25 psi on the turbo) and the pump is E-85 compatible. 390lph = 6,500 cc/min (Bosch 044 is like 275lph/4500 cc/min). It would be an easy swap for my current pump and for $150 it will give me another 2000 cc/min of capacity! I think this pump is a win/win... It may also be quieter too and not sound like I have a blender in my trunk....
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Old 09-25-2018, 12:23 PM
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There's no way for anybody to tell from a single photo.

If you want to know if a specific engine swap is good you have to go over the entire car from fuel pump, through the engine and electronics, to the exhaust tip with a fine tooth comb.

The devil is in the details.

If you don't know how to tell the difference between good work and bad then you should probably stick with the '8 with the Renny while you learn about the car. You can make the decision later if you want to turbo the Renny or swap for a 13B-REW.
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Old 09-26-2018, 08:16 AM
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When are you taking this to the 1/4 mile?

Awesome thread btw
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Old 09-26-2018, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by CeeMeeRx8 View Post
When are you taking this to the 1/4 mile?

Awesome thread btw
Last time I took this car to the 1/4-mile (130 mile round trip) it got rained out! Weather is so variable in Florida in the summer that it can make planning a trip to the track nearly impossible. The weatherman predicted 30% chance of rain that day, which is about as low as it gets in the summer. I left my house at 4PM to sunny skies, by 5:15 and a few miles from the track it looked like I was in the middle of a apocalypse **** movie. I will likely wait until later in the fall to get to the track.

I killed another leading coil last night at WOT and had to hobble it home. I am now buying a set of 8 D585 coils off a junkyard GM vehicle for $80 so I can have a nice reserve of fresh coils to swap. If I didn't enjoy the process of all this it might actually feel like a job.
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Old 09-27-2018, 09:40 AM
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PR

Originally Posted by MaD666MaX View Post
I think aem makes a pump similar to the 044 but e85 rated
that I have
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Old 09-29-2018, 07:54 PM
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Here's a quick video I shot tonight trying to determine if I was getting any fuel pressure loss at 7,500 RPMs and near 20 psi at redline. Ambient high 80s, timing 11-13, split reduced from 12 to 10, boost up to 22 psi (gauge reads a bit high). Since I can't datalog fuel pressure, I use my camera to watch the gauge. Was injecting about 2200 cc/min of E50 on each rotor plus water/methanol (~200 cc/min of methanol each rotor). Still have to add fuel above 6,300 (leans out slightly). Can't hook up second gear even with the boost turned down to 15 psi. I can see a dip in fuel pressure right before I shift, so it looks like pressure is about to crash. I still show 50% room on the secondary injectors shifting at 7,500. Probably be getting that AEM 400 lph to replace the Bosch 044 then pushing that until I run out of injector.


This cheap $60 camera has terrible sound, I cant even hear the turbo on my laptop.


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Old 10-01-2018, 08:05 PM
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Pretty nice, keep it up! Must be a blast, im at 20ish psi also and its scary fast and my turbo is smaller than yours.
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Old 10-03-2018, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by MaD666MaX View Post
Pretty nice, keep it up! Must be a blast, im at 20ish psi also and its scary fast and my turbo is smaller than yours.
It feels fast for a few days, then you get used to it. So you have to crank it up some more...Its a catch 22 that ultimately leads to a blown engine. I think I will get it up to 25 psi and stay there for awhile. I can't wait for it to cool down in Florida.

The 400 lph AEM pump will be here Friday. I will also check/change the fuel lab fuel filter to see if I have accumulated any gunk since I just started running ethanol-rich fuel.
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Old 10-03-2018, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by strokercharged95gt View Post
It feels fast for a few days, then you get used to it.
What kind of drugs are you taking ? Mine at 15psi feels like a rocketship . Wanting more than that just seems crazy !
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Old 10-03-2018, 05:16 PM
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Its a disease! Running out of money if the only cure...
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Old 10-03-2018, 05:30 PM
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Haha ... I can relate to that!
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Old 10-06-2018, 04:36 PM
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Got the new pump in and had no leaks.... The pump seems to be quieter than the Bosch 044. Seems to be lower pitched. Fuel pressure was 1-2 psi higher, had to reduce the pressure slightly on the FPR.

Looked at the Bosch 044 that has been running for 4,000-5,000 miles and the pre-filter was absolutely spotless.

The 10 micron post filter (pre injectors) was dirty, but not excessively dirty or blocked up. I changed the filter anyway because they are only a few bucks.

I also have the drag radials back on because I got tread separation in one of my tires. It blew while cruising 40 mph and almost had me in a spin...

Hopefully the rain holds off and I can get some good data....



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Old 10-08-2018, 07:28 PM
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Just a new quick video to make sure the new fuel pump is keeping up. It actually looks like the fuel pressure begins to dip at 7700. It looks to be doing the exact same thing as the Bosch 044, I may need to look at doubling the intake from the surge tank to the fuel pump.

Turned the boost down a bit on this hit 20 psi max and falling to 17 psi near redline (3rd gear). I also need to turn up the duty cycle in first and second gear because these tires hold (16-17 psi in 2nd gear now, like 12 in psi in first). Still need to add a bit more fuel to the map. E50 is running smooth and quick, all I do with this car is make runs to the E85 station.

Running on the big 26.2 OD MT drag radials so my odometer is reading low a bit. My acceleration values are better with the lower diameter tires, but these will really shine when I get the boost up more. You can hear the backfiring when I lift. I see a big orange flicker in my rear view on all WOT shifts.


I logged the duty cycle of the secondary, only seeing 60% duty cycle at the moment. I could probably run it upwards of 25 psi then trim it back above 7k to 20 psi until 8k.


Last edited by strokercharged95gt; 10-08-2018 at 08:16 PM.
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Old 10-12-2018, 08:39 PM
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First night in 6 months that it was semi-cool and somewhat dryer out at 75 ambient air temp.

Had my fastest pull ever at 21 psi. Had to add like 5-7% more fuel above 5,500 RPMs to deal with the cooler/dryer air.

I am now logging upwards of 80% on the secondary injectors with a 12:1 A/F ratio so I am about tapped for injector capacity.

Based on my log, I was getting 775 RPM/S gain through 3rd gear with the bigger tires. 775/80 = 9.69 MPH/S. So close to my arbitrary number of 10 MPH/S acceleration I have been trying to get to. Can still add a bit of duty cycle to the wastegate between 5500-7500. I'm planning on pulling the plugs this weekend and swapping them out for some new Autolites.



Update: Oil changed after a few thousand miles with a few hundred pulls. New Autolite 3932 plugs in (heat range 10 and $2.99 each). Reduced total injection from 1000cc/min down to 750cc/min (fully on by 25 psi). Car is back up and purring.

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