20b rx8
06-03-2015, 07:03 AM
#301
Secondly why would you use Mild Steel? Why not stainless? 304, 316, 321 all would've been better choices.
Runner Length looks quite uneven
Collector fab looks poor, I'd be scared to see what the inside of that collector looks like.
Why would you use a divided flange on a 3 rotor application?
Lastly you will likely have boost control issues due to the angle of the wastegate outlet on the turbo manifold. Ideally you want the outlet inline with exhaust gas flow.
06-03-2015, 02:20 PM
#303
Haha such discrepancies in what people say before and what they say now. I was told no advise could be taken from me when I posted in a different build thread about choosing material, schedule, and runner length. The said posters replied by saying there was no importance in how the manifold was made with regards to performance and reliability to the engine and turbo. I knew eventually this would happen though ;-)
The look of the welds, if adequate penetration is acquired, has no influence on performance.
The divided flange on three rotor is widely used in japan but requires certain mods to equal out exhaust flow.
And although you may encounter problems with boost control due to the fabrication angle of the wastegate you have to understand cramming this in to the engine bay with everything else he is adding is a PITA, if you have a suggestion provide it to him.
Lastly, it makes you seem arrogant online if all you post is criticism on a thread where a guy is attempting a build and your really not asking if he needs advise or giving it.
The look of the welds, if adequate penetration is acquired, has no influence on performance.
The divided flange on three rotor is widely used in japan but requires certain mods to equal out exhaust flow.
And although you may encounter problems with boost control due to the fabrication angle of the wastegate you have to understand cramming this in to the engine bay with everything else he is adding is a PITA, if you have a suggestion provide it to him.
Lastly, it makes you seem arrogant online if all you post is criticism on a thread where a guy is attempting a build and your really not asking if he needs advise or giving it.
06-03-2015, 03:35 PM
#304
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
And who were these "said posters"? He could have gone with an internally gated turbo, he could have done many things. If he is happy about it then that is all that matters, but on a public forum you will get opinions, it is as simple as that.
Last edited by 9krpmrx8; 06-03-2015 at 04:13 PM.
06-03-2015, 04:07 PM
#305
That is my point exactly. There is nothing wrong with attempting a build. It doesn't matter who likes it or not. I don't know if I'm the only one who can tell there is more criticism than advice. As far as I know Sin can make this look as he feels. Opinions can be backed up by information the builder can learn on. Great job sin it looks very close.
06-03-2015, 08:13 PM
#306
OMG! these guys.
Still waiting on TEAMS advice?
I heard criticism but nothing volunteered of any helpful value, this why i asked him.
"Are you serious" doesn't count
Now this guy-
Lets start with the fact that it looks like it was welded by an 8 year old.- -
it's still just tacked together and not completely sealed, hence the silver primer. to aid in finding small air holes
Secondly why would you use Mild Steel? Why not stainless? 304, 316, 321 all would've been better choices.
Mild steampipe/butt weld joins have been used for many many years without fault, so why not? I was personally concerned that SS would eventually crack and this was the opinion of lots of racers here i spoke to.
So why is SS better?? I'd actually like to know
Runner Length looks quite uneven
Looks can be deceiving, those runners are 20mm at most in different length.
Collector fab looks poor, I'd be scared to see what the inside of that collector looks like.
Luckily i have seen the inside, and its all good.That collector started life as a 4" long radius Butt weld 45degree bend. Its been hammerd and shaped to suit.
Why would you use a divided flange on a 3 rotor application?
Hence the 4" merge as far from the flange as possible. Had to use that flange to match the turbo, so i guess the real question is why divided turbo- because the right price.
Lastly you will likely have boost control issues due to the angle of the wastegate outlet on the turbo manifold. Ideally you want the outlet inline with exhaust gas flow.
This one is correct, to a certain degree. It will be changed a little, but is this way cos of clearance issues at the mo. Something we are still working on but from all the data i have encountered, when ur pumping this much flow into a turbo this size from 3 x 60mm runners it really is of little benefit.
Lastly i feel that u guys are used to seeing shiny arty farty manifolds SS manifolds all the time, hence the hate. Using shiny SS will not make it go quicker or be in anyway more efficient.
U are all also forgetting one thing, SPACE AVAILABLE in a right hand drive rx8 to build said manifold and fit turbo. I wanted turbo as far back and as low as possible. This is why this manifold is difficult.
Feel free to share ur 20b into rhd rx8 top mid mount turbo manifold designs tho??
I heard criticism but nothing volunteered of any helpful value, this why i asked him.
"Are you serious" doesn't count
Now this guy-
Lets start with the fact that it looks like it was welded by an 8 year old.- -
it's still just tacked together and not completely sealed, hence the silver primer. to aid in finding small air holes
Secondly why would you use Mild Steel? Why not stainless? 304, 316, 321 all would've been better choices.
Mild steampipe/butt weld joins have been used for many many years without fault, so why not? I was personally concerned that SS would eventually crack and this was the opinion of lots of racers here i spoke to.
So why is SS better?? I'd actually like to know
Runner Length looks quite uneven
Looks can be deceiving, those runners are 20mm at most in different length.
Collector fab looks poor, I'd be scared to see what the inside of that collector looks like.
Luckily i have seen the inside, and its all good.That collector started life as a 4" long radius Butt weld 45degree bend. Its been hammerd and shaped to suit.
Why would you use a divided flange on a 3 rotor application?
Hence the 4" merge as far from the flange as possible. Had to use that flange to match the turbo, so i guess the real question is why divided turbo- because the right price.
Lastly you will likely have boost control issues due to the angle of the wastegate outlet on the turbo manifold. Ideally you want the outlet inline with exhaust gas flow.
This one is correct, to a certain degree. It will be changed a little, but is this way cos of clearance issues at the mo. Something we are still working on but from all the data i have encountered, when ur pumping this much flow into a turbo this size from 3 x 60mm runners it really is of little benefit.
Lastly i feel that u guys are used to seeing shiny arty farty manifolds SS manifolds all the time, hence the hate. Using shiny SS will not make it go quicker or be in anyway more efficient.
U are all also forgetting one thing, SPACE AVAILABLE in a right hand drive rx8 to build said manifold and fit turbo. I wanted turbo as far back and as low as possible. This is why this manifold is difficult.
Feel free to share ur 20b into rhd rx8 top mid mount turbo manifold designs tho??
The following users liked this post:
ogwazza (08-04-2017)
06-03-2015, 08:15 PM
#307
That is my point exactly. There is nothing wrong with attempting a build. It doesn't matter who likes it or not. I don't know if I'm the only one who can tell there is more criticism than advice. As far as I know Sin can make this look as he feels. Opinions can be backed up by information the builder can learn on. Great job sin it looks very close.
Yes very tru, i'm all for HELPFUL ADVICE but there doesn't seem to be much forthcoming. At least KMA offered something.
06-04-2015, 02:22 AM
#312
Yes, with 20+ years in the stainless steel piping & metal fab business it's just my opinion that your manifold is a total amateur job. If you had built it yourself I would have bit my tongue because I know you don't have those skills, but would respect you taking a shot at it. For a company that uses custom in their name it's not something to be proud of; the weld quality, fitment, transistions, everything, is just not there.
Try googling images for 20b turbo manifold ...
Try googling images for 20b turbo manifold ...
06-04-2015, 09:39 AM
#316
Oil pan is back with some baffles and shorter pickup
Measured the capacity of old against new and good news is I gained 700ml capacity over the stock. And more importantly I gained about 30mm ground clearance.
So with two big **** oil coolers, lines and the 6lt pan I'd say oil changes will be costly.
Measured the capacity of old against new and good news is I gained 700ml capacity over the stock. And more importantly I gained about 30mm ground clearance.
So with two big **** oil coolers, lines and the 6lt pan I'd say oil changes will be costly.
06-04-2015, 01:06 PM
#317
Now this guy-
Lets start with the fact that it looks like it was welded by an 8 year old.- -
it's still just tacked together and not completely sealed, hence the silver primer. to aid in finding small air holes
That's more than just tacked together, I know appearance of a weld does not necessarily indicate strength. But it does usually relate to overall skill, which may indicate inadequate prep work and poor welds.
Secondly why would you use Mild Steel? Why not stainless? 304, 316, 321 all would've been better choices.
Mild steampipe/butt weld joins have been used for many many years without fault, so why not? I was personally concerned that SS would eventually crack and this was the opinion of lots of racers here i spoke to.
So why is SS better?? I'd actually like to know
Stainless Steel - Corrosion Resistance, Better Heat Retention(Lower Coefficient of Thermal Conductivity)(Which results in more heat staying in the runners which equals higher exhaust gas velocity and better turbo spool up), Higher Tensile Strength. You wouldn't have any issues with cracking with a properly welded/built SS manifold Proper Prep, good penetration and back purged, and support for the turbo other than just the manifold which should be done either way.
Mild Steel - Lower Coefficient of Thermal Expansion(Won't expand as much, Which is why it's used for flanges even on SS Manifolds sometimes), Slightly Higher Yield Strength(More Ductile)
Runner Length looks quite uneven
Looks can be deceiving, those runners are 20mm at most in different length.
If that's true that's good.
Collector fab looks poor, I'd be scared to see what the inside of that collector looks like.
Luckily i have seen the inside, and its all good.That collector started life as a 4" long radius Butt weld 45degree bend. Its been hammerd and shaped to suit.
The collector design is poor, you want as smooth of a transition as possible from the runners to the turbine inlet, the way the 4" section meets the flange now is just going to cause turbulence and slow down exhasut gases and poorly affect scavenging.
Why would you use a divided flange on a 3 rotor application?
Hence the 4" merge as far from the flange as possible. Had to use that flange to match the turbo, so i guess the real question is why divided turbo- because the right price.
Just a bad decision IMO, you're not taking advantage of the divided turbine housing, it's essentially just a restriction now.
Lastly you will likely have boost control issues due to the angle of the wastegate outlet on the turbo manifold. Ideally you want the outlet inline with exhaust gas flow.
This one is correct, to a certain degree. It will be changed a little, but is this way cos of clearance issues at the mo. Something we are still working on but from all the data i have encountered, when ur pumping this much flow into a turbo this size from 3 x 60mm runners it really is of little benefit
You may want to do a little more research on this, even a 90degree outlet is not ideal, yours is more than 90 degrees, the gases have to make a U-turn to exit the wastegate when open. You want a path of equal resistance for both the Turbine Inlet and Wastegate Outlet.
I personally wouldn't want to have Boost Control Issues, especially on a Turbocharged Rotary.
One more thing.... There's no "hate" here, I just offered CONSTRUCTIVE criticism to possibly save you trouble in the long run. Take it for what you will.
06-04-2015, 01:09 PM
#318
Oil pan is back with some baffles and shorter pickup
Measured the capacity of old against new and good news is I gained 700ml capacity over the stock. And more importantly I gained about 30mm ground clearance.
So with two big **** oil coolers, lines and the 6lt pan I'd say oil changes will be costly.
Measured the capacity of old against new and good news is I gained 700ml capacity over the stock. And more importantly I gained about 30mm ground clearance.
So with two big **** oil coolers, lines and the 6lt pan I'd say oil changes will be costly.
The pan looks like it's well made.
06-04-2015, 02:56 PM
#319
Unregistered User
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 824
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sinfidelity is obviously doing most of the swap on his own. His priority is having fun as it is for the most of us. It isn't the perfect looking weld beads, equal length runners to the decimal point, saving a few pounds of weight, or picking up the perfect material that may please the forum members. This is an f'ing hobby, one that should always take the back seat to our everyday affairs and jobs. At the same time, due to many hours spent and owning a 20b, pride grows, and it isn't easy to take things not personally. There isn't an end to unsolicited criticisms. Some valid, some not. Some even feel like a backhanded slap. Just keep in mind that most are only trying to help as we all want this to succeed and put down a gazilion rwhp.
06-05-2015, 10:31 AM
#320
I'll post pics of manifold on the car soon, and also some better angles. I didn't notice before but two of the 3pipes are actually flowing In the direction of the wastegate plumbing, like flowing to the opening. It's impossible to tell in that pic but it was pointed out to me yesterday when I was looking at the manifold. I'll get better pics of the angle when it's finished.
I'm pretty confident it"ll turn out fine, guess the proofs in the pudding, so we will all just have wait now.
Thanks for the concern and advice tho guys.
I'm pretty confident it"ll turn out fine, guess the proofs in the pudding, so we will all just have wait now.
Thanks for the concern and advice tho guys.
06-09-2015, 05:35 PM
#322
Did this last night
Relocate battery to boot securely using bits n bobs I had lying around
Removed broken oil pan retaining bolt which broke last time I removed the factory pan. Luckily it was fairly easy
Some wiring progress from my buddy with ecu's etc.
Relocate battery to boot securely using bits n bobs I had lying around
Removed broken oil pan retaining bolt which broke last time I removed the factory pan. Luckily it was fairly easy
Some wiring progress from my buddy with ecu's etc.
08-20-2015, 01:18 PM
#323
Slow progress lately.
Remade the AC brackets using 7mm steel. Definitely happy with the strength now.
Also I made new solid engine mounts which are now retained in two places on each side to the cross member. Used 7mm thick angle where possible, welded to 5mm box.that engine ain't goin anywhere now. These would have to be more than double the strength of the engine brackets which I got from esmeril.
Buddy still wiring!! Engine bay has almost been de-loomed and hidden where possible. Manifold is almost complete.
Aluminium LPG tank arrived. Had it valves with twin outlets to cope with big demand and two converters with 9injectors rated at about 60hp each.
I had to make my own valve box which needs to be gas tight and strong enough to cope with certain impact tests.. It also needs to vent thru the floor to the outside world which also will house the gas pipes, supply and fill.
Needs an access door also.
A little tricky to make this on account of the valves being a little large for the chamfered edge on the tank.
Very happy with the left over room in the boot, especially with a 64 useable litre tank in there.
Remade the AC brackets using 7mm steel. Definitely happy with the strength now.
Also I made new solid engine mounts which are now retained in two places on each side to the cross member. Used 7mm thick angle where possible, welded to 5mm box.that engine ain't goin anywhere now. These would have to be more than double the strength of the engine brackets which I got from esmeril.
Buddy still wiring!! Engine bay has almost been de-loomed and hidden where possible. Manifold is almost complete.
Aluminium LPG tank arrived. Had it valves with twin outlets to cope with big demand and two converters with 9injectors rated at about 60hp each.
I had to make my own valve box which needs to be gas tight and strong enough to cope with certain impact tests.. It also needs to vent thru the floor to the outside world which also will house the gas pipes, supply and fill.
Needs an access door also.
A little tricky to make this on account of the valves being a little large for the chamfered edge on the tank.
Very happy with the left over room in the boot, especially with a 64 useable litre tank in there.
08-20-2015, 01:26 PM
#324
Hey does anybody know much about the abs unit, pump? Can it be mounted in any orientation? Are there any level sensors in it to detect if the car is for instance upside down? Lol
I want to mount it lying down on the side for better clearance. Will be making new brake lines into it also to get rid of those space wasting standard ones.
I want to mount it lying down on the side for better clearance. Will be making new brake lines into it also to get rid of those space wasting standard ones.