NO Plan for New Rotary....THE END...maybe.
03-07-2011, 04:14 PM
#301
I have to chuckle every time I read a comment like this. I suspect people have been saying such things as long as Mazda has been making sports cars.
I recall having these exact same discussions in the Miata forums 15 years ago. The next Miata *had* to make big horsepower and get great 0-60 times to compete. The times are changing and if you don't change with them, you are going to be left behind.
Guess what? There is a market for lighter sports cars that reward differently than a 1/4 mile machine. Miatas are still light and low power, and still sell well. Some of us like our cars that way, and that's who Mazda sells to. They are wise not to go head-to-head with BMW. Porsche as the same philosophy, just at a higher price point (and performance point).
The RX-8 was a bit of a miss-fire, due to mileage & reliability problems (perceived or otherwise). I also think they strayed too far from the "light is right" philosophy - had the RX-8 been a two door & 300 lbs lighter I suspect it would have sold better (but that's just a guess, obviously).
I'm hoping they do the RX-9 - I'll buy one if they do.
I recall having these exact same discussions in the Miata forums 15 years ago. The next Miata *had* to make big horsepower and get great 0-60 times to compete. The times are changing and if you don't change with them, you are going to be left behind.
Guess what? There is a market for lighter sports cars that reward differently than a 1/4 mile machine. Miatas are still light and low power, and still sell well. Some of us like our cars that way, and that's who Mazda sells to. They are wise not to go head-to-head with BMW. Porsche as the same philosophy, just at a higher price point (and performance point).
The RX-8 was a bit of a miss-fire, due to mileage & reliability problems (perceived or otherwise). I also think they strayed too far from the "light is right" philosophy - had the RX-8 been a two door & 300 lbs lighter I suspect it would have sold better (but that's just a guess, obviously).
I'm hoping they do the RX-9 - I'll buy one if they do.
The problem is that most of the customers want a comfortable fast ride and that's the hard compromise. Heck, i would buy a 1050kg 2 seater mazda in a heartbeat if it had enough power to move it fast. I'm not talking about straight line speed but momentum cars can only do so much.
03-07-2011, 04:16 PM
#302
In fact, I dare say that's why Detroit is having a comeback - they are back to their core values of delivering high value cars that people want to own, and that are distinctly American in nature.
03-07-2011, 04:22 PM
#303
03-07-2011, 06:34 PM
#304
I HATE SPEEDBUMPS!
"The ultimate Mazda in our minds is rotary powered; as a company, we have no intention of abandoning that valuable asset." -- Franz von Holzhausen (Mazda Chief Designer)
As I said, Mazda will always have a rotary, it runs to their very core, it is who they are. The RX9 will be.
As I said, Mazda will always have a rotary, it runs to their very core, it is who they are. The RX9 will be.
I've heard that they are not gonna make anymore RX8 in the near future. I might be wrong but that's what i've heard so far.
03-07-2011, 07:14 PM
#307
I have to chuckle every time I read a comment like this. I suspect people have been saying such things as long as Mazda has been making sports cars.
I recall having these exact same discussions in the Miata forums 15 years ago. The next Miata *had* to make big horsepower and get great 0-60 times to compete. The times are changing and if you don't change with them, you are going to be left behind.
I recall having these exact same discussions in the Miata forums 15 years ago. The next Miata *had* to make big horsepower and get great 0-60 times to compete. The times are changing and if you don't change with them, you are going to be left behind.
We've had a "fuel crisis" before, we've had recessions before, we've had naysayers before, and Mazda has been in the same spot before. In fact, the more I think about this, I don't see why these challenges that need to be overcome for the rotary to continue are any more difficult than those in the past.
03-07-2011, 08:24 PM
#309
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tajabaho
A teenager who is a lier on forums, knows absolutely nothing, and an idiot. He does not know what he's talking about and gets flamed for everything. Everything he says always backfires and never makes sense and usually makes a fool out of himself. He's also a post *****.
Mike - Don't pull a tajabaho and put green, white, and red lights in your car, it's so rice!
Conan - But that's cool! I painted my car gold too! It's so hot!
03-07-2011, 10:33 PM
#311
They took the enthusiasm that existed amongst a core group of Mazda engineers and spun it (just like any great Japanese legend) into something larger than life and sold it to an easily manipulated circle of enthusiasts that wanted to believe that their suffering was not in vain. That the fragile, quirky and universally underpowered rust-buckets that they were nursing along had that "soul of a sports car" (when they really wished it had the heart and body of a sports car).
Mazda was a distant 3rd in the 1970's Japanese car market, working as hard as they could to not be 4th or 5th.
They really did make some extraordinary decisions along the way and did an extraordinary job of spinning the bad ones into a story about passion and commitment. All the while, they had shareholders - just like Honda's and Toyota's and Mitsubishi's - breathing down their necks.
I don't see Ford, Chrysler or GM taking 50% stake in the top three. There is a good reason for that.
03-08-2011, 02:30 AM
#312
While i'd like to believe the story of a little garage that builds cars in a cartoonish style i think that I partly have to agree with you.
Mazda builds good cars nowadays. However, being a small manufacturer when compared to Toyota and the likes, they have to find a way to build a niche market and an identity.
The mx5 did that in the nineties, with the weird rotaries as a way to gain visibility. Now they have kept on building good handling cars that cost a bit more than the competitors'. Is it because you're buying a car with a soul? More likely because you're buying from a manufacturer capable of smaller production numbers, so they throw in "quality" and "sport" to keep their niche market alive.
Imho the way they show their soul is their motorsport program that supports both top tier teams and the average parking lot racer. Nice way of making money while supporting their image!
There other are manufacturers with a tradition in japan, Mitsubishi and subaru had to build road going car to reach homologation numbers for the WRC...
Mazda builds good cars nowadays. However, being a small manufacturer when compared to Toyota and the likes, they have to find a way to build a niche market and an identity.
The mx5 did that in the nineties, with the weird rotaries as a way to gain visibility. Now they have kept on building good handling cars that cost a bit more than the competitors'. Is it because you're buying a car with a soul? More likely because you're buying from a manufacturer capable of smaller production numbers, so they throw in "quality" and "sport" to keep their niche market alive.
Imho the way they show their soul is their motorsport program that supports both top tier teams and the average parking lot racer. Nice way of making money while supporting their image!
There other are manufacturers with a tradition in japan, Mitsubishi and subaru had to build road going car to reach homologation numbers for the WRC...
03-08-2011, 07:53 AM
#313
I will say this for Mazda: From Japan to the US, their top brass are real car enthusiasts who enjoy driving and often participating in motorsports themselves. This is real and is reflected in the product. Bean counters will do what bean counters do but some 'Soul of a sportscar' will tend to bleed through on most Mazda products. There is much work to be done in marketing and continued improvements in engineering, product quality and dealer standards but Mazda must not give up on building passionate cars.
On a somewhat related note; I inspected a 2011 turbocharged Hyundai Sonata yesterday and the seats were so much nicer than the US Mazda 6. It pains me to see Hyundai taking market that could be Mazda's.
Paul.
On a somewhat related note; I inspected a 2011 turbocharged Hyundai Sonata yesterday and the seats were so much nicer than the US Mazda 6. It pains me to see Hyundai taking market that could be Mazda's.
Paul.
03-08-2011, 08:45 AM
#315
I'm guessing that the Genesis is not your choice for canyon runs?
Paul.
03-08-2011, 09:31 AM
#316
For me communication of Mazda could be more precise to "driving oriented" customers.
And as european i'm NOT satisfied about Mazda Motorsport Program....no visibility in tracks, no sales to "enthusiast driver" at least here in EU.
rotary included.
03-08-2011, 09:34 AM
#317
40th anniversary Edition
A list of interesting facts about the RX8
http://www.rx8blog.com/mazda-rx8-interesting-facts/ Be sure to click on READ MORE to get the whole list
Also FYI, often the reason for rotary engine failure was due to the fact that until a rotary engine comes up to temperature ( ie: a cold engine warmed up) all the metal and dual/metal parts and apex seals haven't expanded to fit perfectly together. So if you rev this cold engine too high you can cause engine damage and hasten premature engine failure over the long run. This is why the 2009-2011 RX8s have a newer tachometer that shows a lower redline until the engine is warm.
Rotaries love to rev all day long, and strive on revs to keep their combustion chambers from flooding, but please NOT until they are warm should you go searching for the redline as you pull gears. Just keep the revs below 6000 until it is warm, which doesn't take long.
I have never had a rotary engine failure on my watch, in my street or race cars. I figure easily over one million rotary miles in close to 39 years, six different Mazda rotary cars. So if you take care of them, they will last.
I realize others have not had the same experience and Mazda has set up its engine rebuilding shop in Virginia with about thirty employees. Business there has slacked in recent years. Either Mazda is building the engines better. or we all are taking smarter and better care of them. Maybe both.
Another saving grace vs piston engines, the rotaries can be rebuilt at a fraction of the cost of a new engine, and then have a new full life. We never ditched our racing rotaries after bashing them for a season, we just rebuilt them and they raced on for years. Fact is many of the championship winning race RX7s had the same underlying chassis and same engine for a few seasons of racing.
http://www.rx8blog.com/mazda-rx8-interesting-facts/ Be sure to click on READ MORE to get the whole list
Also FYI, often the reason for rotary engine failure was due to the fact that until a rotary engine comes up to temperature ( ie: a cold engine warmed up) all the metal and dual/metal parts and apex seals haven't expanded to fit perfectly together. So if you rev this cold engine too high you can cause engine damage and hasten premature engine failure over the long run. This is why the 2009-2011 RX8s have a newer tachometer that shows a lower redline until the engine is warm.
Rotaries love to rev all day long, and strive on revs to keep their combustion chambers from flooding, but please NOT until they are warm should you go searching for the redline as you pull gears. Just keep the revs below 6000 until it is warm, which doesn't take long.
I have never had a rotary engine failure on my watch, in my street or race cars. I figure easily over one million rotary miles in close to 39 years, six different Mazda rotary cars. So if you take care of them, they will last.
I realize others have not had the same experience and Mazda has set up its engine rebuilding shop in Virginia with about thirty employees. Business there has slacked in recent years. Either Mazda is building the engines better. or we all are taking smarter and better care of them. Maybe both.
Another saving grace vs piston engines, the rotaries can be rebuilt at a fraction of the cost of a new engine, and then have a new full life. We never ditched our racing rotaries after bashing them for a season, we just rebuilt them and they raced on for years. Fact is many of the championship winning race RX7s had the same underlying chassis and same engine for a few seasons of racing.
Last edited by gwilliams6; 03-08-2011 at 10:59 AM.
03-08-2011, 09:35 AM
#318
What you meant to say was "driving oriented customers with very little money".
And therein lies the rub.
What would compel a major manufacturer to build expensive, small-production-yield cars for people that can't pay for them?
03-08-2011, 09:41 AM
#319
03-08-2011, 09:49 AM
#320
National touring championships are more expensive and competitive than the ones ran in other continents because manufacturers like porsche, bmw, audi etc all have official cars running around. Even ferrari avoids running an official team!
Then you have FIA's monopoly, and that means even more money. Tyres cost more, fuel costs more, components cost more etc. Independent teams are shutting down because of the recession, Mazda suffered a lot too so why waste even more money?
Spec classes are rare and as expensive as real championships, rotaries and turbo cars are heavily penalized etc. Mazda stands no chance in europe.
03-08-2011, 09:54 AM
#321
for rotaries, i agree...out of reach.
no money=no visibility
03-08-2011, 09:58 AM
#322
You're spot on but there are some facts that should be put straight.
It all comes to the income that the increased visibility allegedly warrants. We don't have so many motorsport programmes, touring championships go through small networks or pay per view tv.
Add the fact that the big boys run with official cars that cost 300.000€ against teams with budgets of 100.000€ for a full season, car included.
Mazda has got the chassis to compete but lacks the engines and teams and competing doesn't give you visibility nowadays, you have to WIN!
I would love to have a spec miata national championship with inter-european finals across europe. It would be super sweet and i'd probably give up football to race but the truth is that they would just be wasting money.
It all comes to the income that the increased visibility allegedly warrants. We don't have so many motorsport programmes, touring championships go through small networks or pay per view tv.
Add the fact that the big boys run with official cars that cost 300.000€ against teams with budgets of 100.000€ for a full season, car included.
Mazda has got the chassis to compete but lacks the engines and teams and competing doesn't give you visibility nowadays, you have to WIN!
I would love to have a spec miata national championship with inter-european finals across europe. It would be super sweet and i'd probably give up football to race but the truth is that they would just be wasting money.
03-08-2011, 11:52 AM
#323
Registered
03-08-2011, 12:18 PM
#324
Super Moderator
Thread Starter
Next Rotary...with Gas prices now at $5 (and over), $6.50 Australia and $9.00 (rough) Europe a Gallon...there will be NO petroleum fueled ONLY rotary in the foreseeable future....
As much as I want to see a (dino only) rotary, how will Mazda sell it, even with a 20% (optimistic) improvement in Economy over the renny...
It just wont sell...
As much as I want to see a (dino only) rotary, how will Mazda sell it, even with a 20% (optimistic) improvement in Economy over the renny...
It just wont sell...