Cooder

I just had a positive premonition today that the RX8 is going to be around for at least one more generation. This is the first positive gut feeling I've had about the survivability of the rotary, and yes I am psychic.

There's so much activity across the Mazda lineup. Mazda is doing better than it ever has. It is similar to Nissan's thing the last 4 years. Even though Nissan's new car model explosion has eased a little the last year or two, Nissan maintains its momentum and is still reaping the benefits. Mazda's is on a smaller scale but its activity buzz is in the here and now TODAY.

The feeling I get is Mazda and Nissan are more closely connected than any other company. Toyota's hybrid success isn't immediately relevant to Mazda's health. Honda's new Civic doesn't really POSITIVELY affect anything current at Mazda since the Kabura isn't here yet (and the effect on the Mazda 3 can only be negative). Nissan's momentum, in my gut opinion, transfers and equates to Mazda's momentum. And here's my logic:

The crazy success of the 350Z and G35 (and to some extent the BMW 3-series) transfers to at least continuation for the RX8 and rotary engine, if not equal success. What I'm saying is the success of Mazda's other cars is evidence of the indirect influence on the other Mazda models of the RX8 as a Mazda icon (along with the Miata; What other car company has TWO icons working simultaneously TODAY?) even if the RX8 or rotary is unlikely to ever sell in great quantities. However, the causal direction seems to be RX8 "acting on" the rest of the Mazda lineup. Still, the RX8 has to at least sell at a minimum level to insure the rotary's continuation, which means there must be a force or factor that "acts on" the RX8. I believe this necessary force comes in great part from the 350Z and G35. In fact, I would argue that the 350Z/G35 combo drives the viability of the entire segment and benefits every car company that has a car in the segment (including Mitsubishi, Lotus, Porsche, and cars that are yet-to-be like a Supra replacement and Honda S2000 and/or NSX replacement). An amazing new G35 coupe is about to come out, which I think everyone would agree will sell like crazy, and instead of worrying that it will kill the RX8 sales, I now believe its existence will insure that the RX8 continues to sell at a minimum level, which also means the rotary will continue.

Ike

I think you logic is screwy. The RX-8 would most likely sell much better if the 350Z/G35 did not exist. Also the sales of the G35 and 350Z have remained strong and pretty steady, RX-8 sales are nosediving as the months pass.

R8edX

I had no idea that the RX8 was a nice car until I went to the L.A. auto show. I was looking at Boxsters, 2000s, TTs and others. Try to find info on the RX8 or
stories in magazines, they are very few and far between. I think that the marketing department at Mazda sucks.

Cooder

Unfortunately, I have to disagree with you to some extent. Market forces equate to social forces and they can be complex, multi-dimensional, and indirect.

My discourse involves at least two lines of relationships. You attack only one of those lines, without commenting on the overall parallel between Nissan's massive rebound and success focusing on goodlooking cars that are fun to drive and reasonably priced and Mazda's recent rebound/success. Even with this latter, larger relationship, you can't use simple logic to deduce that if Nissan did not have its upswing, then Mazda's recent success would have been even far greater. These are not computer algorithms; these are social forces.

I am not saying my gut feeling will come out true- that the rotary will absolutely survive at least one more generation. I'm saying that what you say and what I say are not mutually exclusive. Both lines of "logic" have been empirically observed many times in history across more things than just automobiles. In fact, both forces have been empirically observed working simultaneously within a single company within one industry.

Many years ago, Nissan got a head start on Infiniti over Toyota's Lexus. The media buzz on the start of Infiniti came before Lexus. However, Lexus ramped things up like only Toyota can and Lexus dealerships were selling cars months before Infiniti was ready. Lexus immediately outshined Infiniti but the concept of luxury Japanese cars was here to stay. Each company was motivated by the other company; they were each other's driving force. Infiniti did not go out of business, even though things were really bad for several years. Each company pushed the other and here we are today (I even thought Infiniti would never recover). Who ever thought China would be the most powerful nation in the world in the first half of the 21 century (actually I predicted this back in the late 80's when I had never heard of the idea from any source)? If market forces were so simple, Infiniti and/or Lexus would have started up many years ago but instead they let Acura take the risk. What I'm saying is things were very unpredictable and that is why they didn't start when Honda decided to start Acura. Both benefited from Acura's prior existence. The 3 companies created and maintained a revolutionary concept that may not have survived with one company alone. Note that right now is about the only time that all 3 luxury Japanese brands are thriving simultaneously. Before the present, the 3-way (at least 3-way) symbiotic relationship allowed a weaker cog at any given time to (1) not destroy that cog permanently and (2) not destroy the whole market concept/segment permanently. Isn't this similar to investment portfolio diversification?

I see the same thing with big SUV's and the social phenomenon of the Hummer. I believe the Hummer is the primary source, the icon (but not the only one of course) that has driven this market even in the face of skyrocketing gas prices. Sales of big SUV's became stale for a time up to the present, but it is clearly temporary. Virtually all the car companies are coming out with newer, bigger trucks and SUV's. It's not about immediate or constant success. It's about keeping a market in existence over a long period of time, even in the face of ups and downs. What is the force that drives that entire market in the face of ups and downs? That's the question. It's not about one cog dominating over all others. Or one cog getting dominated. Our considerations and analyses need to be much wider than the conventional.

So without the 350Z/G35, then the RX8 would have sold even better than about 2000 units/month during the first year? Quite probably. But it also could have dropped sooner and sent the rotary back into oblivion sooner. Back in the 90's, none of the icons (RX7, 300ZX, Supra) were strong enough to counter negative market forces. It's not about the RX8 could have done better. It's about having an icon that is a socio-cultural phenomenon- called the 350Z/G35- that is so powerful that it can counteract negative market forces, and together in a symbiotic relationship with its kissing cousins from the competition (RX8, Evo, WRX STI) sustain a market segment during inevitable ups and downs over the long run.

Cooder

For some reason, I can't edit my posts.

So let me add here that it's really about the sustainability of the overall market segment. The RX8 is not strong enough to sustain itself or the market all by itself in the face of negative market forces. That extraordinary market force does exist, though, and it's called the 350Z/G35. It is the backbone of and the key piece to the continued existence and long-term health of this market segment as a whole. The RX8 is down right now but it still has a chance to continue to the next step of its existence, thanks to the 350Z/G35 doing so well. Without their existence, the RX8 may have done better early on but it probably would have dropped out of existence sooner.

StealthFox

...


uhhh

im confused...

Cooder

Do you know what Zeitgeist or "the right thing at the right time" means?

StealthFox

don't worry man im just messing with you, its just those posts take a little soaking in to get 100% and i partially agree with you in that without competitors the rx8 would sell much better initially, but over the long run it would die out quicker not having support from other cars to keep the market segment going.

Ike

I do and, and I think the RX-8 was neither of those. It's a great car but the average consumer doesn't understand it, with it's strange engine, lower hp, worse gas mileage than many competitors. If Mazda really wanted to make a dent in this segment they should have gone another direction.

Cooder

Zeitgeist and the right thing at the right time are the same thing. The RX8 is neither. I didn't say it was.

Zeitgeist applies to the 350Z/G35. The RX8 has a chance to piggyback on the success of those cars. Without those cars, the RX8 and rotary was dead a year ago. It may still end up dead but, with the advent of the new awesome G35 that will come out in a year, the RX8 at least has a chance to make it to the next generation.

StealthFox

i dont know if the new gtr(if thats what you're talking about) will carry on rx8 sales, but i think there's enough sales of the rx8 to keep the project going for mazda.

Ike

When I say neither of those I mean not the right thing, nor the right time. I'm saying that because there are too many other cars to steal sales away from the RX-8 that on paper look more impressive to the average consumer. The RX-8 isn't lasting longer because of cars like the Z and G35, it's dropping 40ish% in sales compared to last year because of those cars and other sporty cars in a similar price range.

Ike

He's talking about the redesign of the G35.

Cooder

Mazda doesn't need the RX8 to make a dent by itself. Mazda is simply using it as an icon for the betterment of its other cars, like the Mazda 3 and 6 and MPS 3 and 6. It has already worked. Remember, the Mazda 6 was dead for its entire first year. It started to gain traction only with the advent of the RX8. In fact, the RX8 might also boost Miata sales. Some people have been worrying about the Miata taking attention away from the RX8 and rotary. But that's exactly what Mazda needs and wants. It was never about the RX8.

Mazda isn't worried about the RX8 or the rotary being a success in sales. It is being used on purpose by Mazda to generate attention on Mazda's other models. It is WE the rotary enthusiasts who want the RX8 to succeed so that the rotary may continue. I am arguing what should be a great relief to rotary enthusiasts, that the RX8 does not necessarily have to succeed in itself for the rotary to continue; it merely has to succeed in generating attention onto Mazda's other cars and as long as it sells at a bare minimal level, whatever that is. Its chances of staying at or above that bare minimal level is increased with the continued success of the 350Z/G35.

Right now, if we focus only on the RX8 sales itself, things appear bleak. However, if I am even partly right, rotary enthusiasts have at least some reasons to breathe as sigh of relief. If we can just make it to the next generation, anything can happen at that time.

Cooder

As I say in the previous post, this is not as critical as you might think. (1) What is critical is that the RX8 generates attention onto Mazda's other cars, which it definitely has, regardless of its steep drop in sales. There is however a new nuance, and that is the new Miata. The RX8 segwayed nicely into the new Miata, and the question might be if the Miata has the iconic power to energize the rest of the lineup on its own without the help of the RX8. It's sort of like Godzilla needed the help of that fricking floppy-eared ridiculous monkey monster to beat the Mecha-Godzilla, who was on the verge of knocking Godzilla out until that poor floppy-eared, long-tailed disaster was getting sliced and diced but took some attention off of Godzilla, which allowed Godzilla to take a breather and make a recovery. I will bet that Mazda is currently analyzing this, and my prediction is that Mazda has decided or will decide shortly that it can't take the chance. The Miata and RX8 need each other. It's sort of like the concept of lost leader. (2) Of peripheral importance is that the RX8 minimize losses, break even, or sell at a minimal acceptable level (whatever that may be, I don't know). Mazda doesn't need the RX8 to be a sales success; it merely needs it to stay in the public's awareness. The 350Z/G35 insures that all the cars in the segment (Evo, WRX STI, RX8) stay in the public's awareness. As long as that continues, somewhat independently of its own sales, the RX8 will successfully accomplish its goal as far as Mazda is concerned, which is to generate attention onto Mazda's other cars. In addition, as long as Mazda's overall success continues, then OUR (rotary enthusiasts) goal might also be accomplished- the continuation of the rotary for at least one more generation.

ZoomZoomH

iTrader: (1)

an anecdotal evidence: a family friend of ours came to my house for a visit, they saw my RX-8, was fascinated by its looks (they have no idea what's underneith the hood), so we started talking about it, and the dad asked the general questions about any car (price/reliability/PRACTICALITY), and mentioned that he wants to get a car to replace his son's beater Mitsu Mirage.

They ended up buying a titanium Mazda3 5 door for him.

I think, if they haven't seen my 8 sitting in my garage, they would have NEVER even looked at the Mazda lineup, and found the little gem that is the Mazda3

Ike

I don't think the RX-8 refelcts so positively on Mazda. The car is regularly critisized on other cars forums, the rotary engine is bashed, the horsepower debacle it laughed about as is the gas mileage. I don't agree with the bashing, but in enthusiast communities other than this one the RX-8 isn't spoken of very highly. The RX-8 is not a halo car, Mazda never wanted it to be a halo car. It was built with the intention of being a sales success and money maker with hopes of selling around 30k units per year in the US. They have fallen well short and sales continue to plummet.

That being said, I hope you're correct and there is one more generation. I'd love to see Mazda extract more horsepower out of the Renesis and maybe address some of the issues with the car. If they don't go forward with it I hope they take the RX-8 (or similar package) and put a refined version of the MS6 engine with proper cooling in it.

Cooder

Good point. Seems like Mazda is pushing development of the MZR what with that racing series car. Maybe the future of Mazda sports cars lies in a lightweight high HP 4-banger. That would be awesome.

How are they able to get 300 HP out of the MZR without FI? Is that pretty normal for NA racing engines of that displacement?

Cooder

Exactly, yes yes yes. Most average buyers have no idea what the rotary is or all the negative crap about reliability, oil, HP, mpg. They see a ton of RX8's on the lot and they look cool, suggesting Mazda is a cool company that is happening and on the cutting edge in exterior design. Then they buy a 6, 3, or Miata.

ZoomZoomH

iTrader: (1)

the only similarity between the production MZR and the Cosworth-built 2.3L MZR for the Champ Car Altantic series is the block, everything else is probably upgraded for racing use

Cooder

Can we get that fricking engine for the RX8? That is my dream. Can someone buy that engine and swap it into their 8?

Can you see a Miata or Kabura-like car with that engine in the near future. My god.

ZoomZoomH

iTrader: (1)

those cars are probably also tuned to run on racing gas.... street 93 gas would probably blow it up lol

Cooder

Blowing up an engine would not deter a rotary enthusiast.

playdoh43

Cooder i think you make some valid points, imo its just a simple case of supply vs demand...

Nissan saw that Honda's s2000 had the entire japanese sports car segment to it self and decided to join the compeition because theres demand that justifies that move... Mazda did the same thing. At the end of the day Nissan had the strongest product from a business standpoint, its not necessarily the best car, but its the car that attracted the most buyers.

And due to the success of the Z, Mazda have little reason to exit the market just because it hadnt done well this generation. The only reason why a company would leave a market segment is if the entire segment is not profitable or oversaturated. When this happens, sales in the entire segment crashes. This is however clearly not the case, since 350z and g35 is enjoying strong sales and demand. --- the demand is there.

So Mazda has no reason to leave the market, and in fact Mazda have strong incentive to design a "stronger" product next gen that can compete better and grab a bigger share of the market. ---- again the underlying key point is that the demand for sub 30k rwd japanese sports car is there. When theres demand, there will ultimately be competition, this is why Chevy and Dodge are busy making retro muscle cars after seeing Mustang's success. so chances are we will see a next gen RX.

Cooder

I agree completely.