Critical parallel/symbiotic relationship b/ Nissan & Mazda = RX8's/rotary's survival
02-20-2006, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Cooder
(1) I sensed this in you. You are so focused on challenging people that you only see what you want, even with other peoples' words. Yes, many of the Nissan ads are bad, regardless of what Effie says. Ads for many of their cars are nonexistent. Of course, they have so many cars and they choose where they want to spend their ad money. What I said stands. No wavering, no backtracking.
(2) You did not fully absorb my initial post and you quickly attack my logic as "screwy" in your first post. You didn't consider my larger argument and erroneously overfocus on a direct connection between 350Z/G35 and RX8 sales. You assume it is all or nothing, that multiple forces that seem in opposition can't work simultaneously. And of course you are wrong. Many subsequent posters support my position. I am confident you now realize my logic was not "screwy" but you never posted a follow-up conceding anything. That isn't your style.
(3) You actually did not understand when I said Zeitgeist and the right thing at the right time, I was referring to the 350Z/G35. You directed your retort at the RX8 being neither, indicating you missed the point. Even your after the fact backtracking and misdirection attempts didn't fool me. You jumped the gun again and misunderstood again but instead of fessing up to it, you cover yourself up even more. This is your way. Instead of humiliating you further, I just let it go, evidence of which is when I posted "good point...." This thread topic is the best damn topic that's come up in some time and I don't want to ruin it because of some ego challenge. Let's focus on the topic, man.
(4) You keep pushing the 40% decline in RX8 sales without realizing that it has very little to do with and very little against my original hypothesis. It is as if you are on your own track and just can't even attempt to broaden your perspective. Even I said up front that our statements are not mutually exclusive.
(5) You backtrack again with the blabber about the ads when you say "last 10 years" covers everything you said. Haha!. Come on, man, when are you ever going to play it straight? If you knew exactly what you were talking about you would have said "last 5 years." The ads in the mid-90's were good? Ha ha, yeah right.
(6) You can admit you were wrong now. If you won't, I expect others soon will do it for you, just as they did earlier in the thread without addressing you directly (by supporting what I said). There is something rigid and extreme about your personality.
(2) You did not fully absorb my initial post and you quickly attack my logic as "screwy" in your first post. You didn't consider my larger argument and erroneously overfocus on a direct connection between 350Z/G35 and RX8 sales. You assume it is all or nothing, that multiple forces that seem in opposition can't work simultaneously. And of course you are wrong. Many subsequent posters support my position. I am confident you now realize my logic was not "screwy" but you never posted a follow-up conceding anything. That isn't your style.
(3) You actually did not understand when I said Zeitgeist and the right thing at the right time, I was referring to the 350Z/G35. You directed your retort at the RX8 being neither, indicating you missed the point. Even your after the fact backtracking and misdirection attempts didn't fool me. You jumped the gun again and misunderstood again but instead of fessing up to it, you cover yourself up even more. This is your way. Instead of humiliating you further, I just let it go, evidence of which is when I posted "good point...." This thread topic is the best damn topic that's come up in some time and I don't want to ruin it because of some ego challenge. Let's focus on the topic, man.
(4) You keep pushing the 40% decline in RX8 sales without realizing that it has very little to do with and very little against my original hypothesis. It is as if you are on your own track and just can't even attempt to broaden your perspective. Even I said up front that our statements are not mutually exclusive.
(5) You backtrack again with the blabber about the ads when you say "last 10 years" covers everything you said. Haha!. Come on, man, when are you ever going to play it straight? If you knew exactly what you were talking about you would have said "last 5 years." The ads in the mid-90's were good? Ha ha, yeah right.
(6) You can admit you were wrong now. If you won't, I expect others soon will do it for you, just as they did earlier in the thread without addressing you directly (by supporting what I said). There is something rigid and extreme about your personality.
2.) I quickly attack your logic because it's flawed. Your whole first argument is a non causa pro causa. The exitence of the 350Z and G35 will have no bearing on whether the RX-8 will make it to another generation. Sales and profitability have everything to do with that. Heads of Mazda have stated many times that the RX-8 is not a halo car and is meant to make money for the company. Lastly, lets not pretend you're just learning my style, you knew what you were up against all along, as did I. Precisely why I have not gone into great depth with refuting your posts, I am fully aware that I am dealing with a psycho, whatever forum name you've chosen this month
3.) I may have misunderstood which car you were refering to, but you don't even know what zeitgeist really refers to. You came across as a kid that just learned a big new word in a college class. I let that go... Zeitgeist is literally "spirit of the times" and is properly used to descripe literature and works of art as well as the feeling of a general era. "Zeitgeist is a German word. Zeit meaning "time" and Geist meaning "ghost," Zeitgeist means the spirit of the age or times. The trend of thought and counter-thought specific to a certain temporo-spatial environs".
This isn't the best topic that has come up in a long time, it's a misguided rant from someone that has displayed strong bias and wayward thinking many times in the past.
4.) See number 2, the part about the halo car and non causa pro causa
5.) The Toys ad was quite good as I pointed out, and it won awards to prove it, that was 1996. Regardless,I say the new VW commercials are one of the best ad campaigns of the decade, simply because the decade goes back 10 years does not make my statement any less true simply because VW had some bad ads in that 10 year span.
6.) Sorry bud, not happening. Like I've said in the past, you'll be banned soon anyhow and it won't matter, then I get to play my little game of figuring which new screen name you have. Why do you insist on continueing to come back to a place that clearly doesn't want you? A place where in the past you've done little but try to stir up[ trouble and fling insults? Do you realize how insane that makes you look?
02-20-2006, 11:18 PM
#53
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Just quickly scan your other posts in other threads. Everyone can tell you're not quite right in the head. You are unable to focus on the issue, which may be multifaceted. You focus on one line of thinking, yours. This is you. You have been like this for a long time. You just can't stop it. Thus, in real life, it's been harmful to your relationships.
I know exactly what Zeitgeist means. And you know that I know. You still don't understand that many forces can work simultaneously. You really don't get it or you really don't want to get it. Now that's rigid. Because I have already mentioned that what I said has been observed empirically many times in the industry and other industries. The thinking, the consideration is sound. However, it is not guaranteed that the RX8 will behave that way. It is clear that the 350Z/G35 drives the market segment. And that insures Mazda will keep attention and resources on the market segment, whether it's the RX8 or another sports car. Regardless of its sales, the RX8 has already accomplished its job by bringing attention to the other Mazda models. It is absolutely insane that even with prior empirical historical evidence, you would call my thinking flawed. My thinking comes from empirical fact. Whether or not the RX8 goes down that path remains to be seen and will have no bearing on the validity of what I have said.
I know exactly what Zeitgeist means. And you know that I know. You still don't understand that many forces can work simultaneously. You really don't get it or you really don't want to get it. Now that's rigid. Because I have already mentioned that what I said has been observed empirically many times in the industry and other industries. The thinking, the consideration is sound. However, it is not guaranteed that the RX8 will behave that way. It is clear that the 350Z/G35 drives the market segment. And that insures Mazda will keep attention and resources on the market segment, whether it's the RX8 or another sports car. Regardless of its sales, the RX8 has already accomplished its job by bringing attention to the other Mazda models. It is absolutely insane that even with prior empirical historical evidence, you would call my thinking flawed. My thinking comes from empirical fact. Whether or not the RX8 goes down that path remains to be seen and will have no bearing on the validity of what I have said.
02-20-2006, 11:59 PM
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So it's not pretend time anymore, where you pretend to be figuring me out while I remain clueless as to who you are? If you know knew exactly what zeitgeist is you wouldn't have improperly used it in the first place. You're reeling, earlier in this thread you believed the G35s "existence will insure that the RX8 continues to sell at a minimum level, which also means the rotary will continue" now it's "whether it's the RX-8 or another sports car".
You're again falling into the trap of the non causa pro causa, the RX-8 hasn't brought attention to other Mazda models, the fact that those other cars are good cars have brought their own attention. The Mazda 3 would sell just as well as it does if the RX-8 never existed. Stating your thinking comes from empirical fact does not make it cogent, show me these facts. All you have are whims and hypotheses, oh wait, you don't even have that, all you have is a simple belief that you've over thought in your twisted head.
It's simple, if the RX-8 makes money it continues on, if it loses too much money Mazda moves on.
I'm done with this, I've been here done this with you before and it's pointless debating a madman. Have fun in your little world and stay clear of me, I've had to deal with your **** for too long under your various forum names and I'm tired of it.
You're again falling into the trap of the non causa pro causa, the RX-8 hasn't brought attention to other Mazda models, the fact that those other cars are good cars have brought their own attention. The Mazda 3 would sell just as well as it does if the RX-8 never existed. Stating your thinking comes from empirical fact does not make it cogent, show me these facts. All you have are whims and hypotheses, oh wait, you don't even have that, all you have is a simple belief that you've over thought in your twisted head.
It's simple, if the RX-8 makes money it continues on, if it loses too much money Mazda moves on.
I'm done with this, I've been here done this with you before and it's pointless debating a madman. Have fun in your little world and stay clear of me, I've had to deal with your **** for too long under your various forum names and I'm tired of it.
02-21-2006, 12:19 AM
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02-21-2006, 12:41 AM
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You truly are absorbed with yourself. Your problem isn't just with me. It's all over in your other threads where I'm completely absent. You have a jealousy problem that centers on attention.
Instead of reading zeitgeist from a book, you need to fully understand it. To fully understand it, you have to show you can incorporate it flexibly, not rigidly according to a dictionary definition or google search. I deal with this sort of thing all the time. It's quite annoying. Rigidly, it refers to a set of conditions during a time. It is a passive, static word. However, a certain set of conditions at a certain time can allow certain things to take root and flourish, and this is what I mean by the right thing at the right time. These two ideas taken together describe the 350Z/G35 quite nicely. But it was still uncertain for the 350Z/G35, and not any equivalent sports car could have done it. This is not exactly the same as, for example, the formulation and acceptance of the Theory of Evolution by Darwin, which can be described neatly by Zeitgeist and someone was bound to do it (or if it wasn't Darwin, it would have been someone else). So I really should have invoked a third concept, the Chosen One. If you don't know how to work flexibly with concepts and can only take them at face "google/dictionary" value, then you don't truly understand how to apply them.
My argument has been that even if the RX8 doesn't make money, it may still get to move on. Let me also remind you that in my very first post responding to your rude response, I said that there is no guarantee that the forces I mention will come to fruition with the RX8. There will be many factors for the Mazda brass to consider, absolutely more than the one consideration you keep solely focusing on. One other factor I have already mentioned is the strength of the Miata to go it alone as the Mazda icon, like what the Viper did/does for Chrysler (Did the Viper make money for Chrysler?). So one such "other sports car" is the Miata. Or it might be another rotary car. Or it might be a Kabura-like car with or without a rotary. This is what I mean by whether it's the RX8 or another sports car. Many things can happen that fall right into my thesis. Nothing is guaranteed except that there will be many more considerations than just the one you mention. I guarantee you that. Many others agree with me in their posts. And I'm a madman for even starting this thread and presenting this idea? I would encourage you to learn and read more in the relevant areas. Some of your comments here and in other threads directed at other people are clearly show that you do not know the limits of your knowledge and that your focus is just to automatically counter whatever is said, no matter how clearly reasonable, by a person who is getting attention. This glamour queen thing you got is deep-rooted, and you suffer from it and make others suffer it in real life.
You are not a pleasant fellow and you continue to initiate vitriol with me and others. If you hadn't been ingratiating yourself to the people who run this place for so long, you would be banned.
Instead of reading zeitgeist from a book, you need to fully understand it. To fully understand it, you have to show you can incorporate it flexibly, not rigidly according to a dictionary definition or google search. I deal with this sort of thing all the time. It's quite annoying. Rigidly, it refers to a set of conditions during a time. It is a passive, static word. However, a certain set of conditions at a certain time can allow certain things to take root and flourish, and this is what I mean by the right thing at the right time. These two ideas taken together describe the 350Z/G35 quite nicely. But it was still uncertain for the 350Z/G35, and not any equivalent sports car could have done it. This is not exactly the same as, for example, the formulation and acceptance of the Theory of Evolution by Darwin, which can be described neatly by Zeitgeist and someone was bound to do it (or if it wasn't Darwin, it would have been someone else). So I really should have invoked a third concept, the Chosen One. If you don't know how to work flexibly with concepts and can only take them at face "google/dictionary" value, then you don't truly understand how to apply them.
My argument has been that even if the RX8 doesn't make money, it may still get to move on. Let me also remind you that in my very first post responding to your rude response, I said that there is no guarantee that the forces I mention will come to fruition with the RX8. There will be many factors for the Mazda brass to consider, absolutely more than the one consideration you keep solely focusing on. One other factor I have already mentioned is the strength of the Miata to go it alone as the Mazda icon, like what the Viper did/does for Chrysler (Did the Viper make money for Chrysler?). So one such "other sports car" is the Miata. Or it might be another rotary car. Or it might be a Kabura-like car with or without a rotary. This is what I mean by whether it's the RX8 or another sports car. Many things can happen that fall right into my thesis. Nothing is guaranteed except that there will be many more considerations than just the one you mention. I guarantee you that. Many others agree with me in their posts. And I'm a madman for even starting this thread and presenting this idea? I would encourage you to learn and read more in the relevant areas. Some of your comments here and in other threads directed at other people are clearly show that you do not know the limits of your knowledge and that your focus is just to automatically counter whatever is said, no matter how clearly reasonable, by a person who is getting attention. This glamour queen thing you got is deep-rooted, and you suffer from it and make others suffer it in real life.
You are not a pleasant fellow and you continue to initiate vitriol with me and others. If you hadn't been ingratiating yourself to the people who run this place for so long, you would be banned.
Last edited by Cooder; 02-21-2006 at 12:48 AM.
02-21-2006, 12:46 AM
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Originally Posted by BlueEyes
Reactionary for teh win!!11!!01!!
?
?
02-21-2006, 12:51 AM
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Ok, what does this have to do with the thread topic, which is totally legit and worthwhile? Jealousy is something you have to deal with elsewhere.
This thread was not started to attack you. Or to put you down personally. Think about that, Ike. Take a deep breath and let the ego ooze out.
This thread was not started to attack you. Or to put you down personally. Think about that, Ike. Take a deep breath and let the ego ooze out.
02-21-2006, 12:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Ike
Do you realize who Cooder is Playdoh?
02-21-2006, 12:59 AM
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Originally Posted by playdoh43
I dont know who he is... all i know is hes not very good at debating...some of hes arguments are a mess of jumbled up sentences that goes all over the place. But i give him credit for his efforts in typing up 1 wall of text after another. eitherway im just saying... ive come to realize that in situations like this... anyone with half a brian can see who makes sense and who dosnt, so why fuel the fire? its just going to result in more walls of texts.
02-21-2006, 01:02 AM
#66
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My wall of text is bigger than yours!!
My wall of text is bigger than yours!!
02-21-2006, 01:05 AM
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Originally Posted by trickshot
Some people evidently are so smart that they can type a whole page and you still can't figure out what the hell they are trying to say.
02-21-2006, 01:05 AM
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Originally Posted by trickshot
Some people evidently are so smart that they can type a whole page and you still can't figure out what the hell they are trying to say.
02-21-2006, 01:07 AM
#70
i pwn therefore i am
I really don't understand what the problem is. The RX-8 will be produced indefinitely because it handles so well in the twisties. Haha, I love that word.
Anyways, this whole thread is sorta founded on some dude trying to will the existence of the RX-8 into the future simply with fancy words and complicated logic. Now, I'm all for trying to impress random people on the Internet with fancy Latin words and math equations, but I think it can be summed up like this: people are spending lots of money on cars lately.
Maybe it's the baby boomers trying to relive their youthful days that they can't remember because they were too coked up the first time. Maybe it's the auto industry brainwashing us into thinking we'll be hunted down and "peppered" by Dick Cheney if we don't drop 30K on a car. Who gives a crap? In the end car companies will keep trying to make money and will almost certainly make faster, better cars for the foreseeable future. I would love to see Mazda make a new incarnation of the RX-8, but at this point it's all speculation.
Anyways, this whole thread is sorta founded on some dude trying to will the existence of the RX-8 into the future simply with fancy words and complicated logic. Now, I'm all for trying to impress random people on the Internet with fancy Latin words and math equations, but I think it can be summed up like this: people are spending lots of money on cars lately.
Maybe it's the baby boomers trying to relive their youthful days that they can't remember because they were too coked up the first time. Maybe it's the auto industry brainwashing us into thinking we'll be hunted down and "peppered" by Dick Cheney if we don't drop 30K on a car. Who gives a crap? In the end car companies will keep trying to make money and will almost certainly make faster, better cars for the foreseeable future. I would love to see Mazda make a new incarnation of the RX-8, but at this point it's all speculation.
Last edited by saturn; 02-21-2006 at 01:13 AM.
02-21-2006, 01:15 AM
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Woah.
But... those small Nissan trucks (Frontier?) are ****. My father is looking for a replacement for his ancient Toyota pickup (with over 200k mi and still going... but in need of retirement). He was checking out a 2004 or 2005 and was shocked at how cheap the thing was put together. We're talking about door panels flexing/denting from the passenger leaning on it during turns. Let's just say he crossed that truck off his list.
But... those small Nissan trucks (Frontier?) are ****. My father is looking for a replacement for his ancient Toyota pickup (with over 200k mi and still going... but in need of retirement). He was checking out a 2004 or 2005 and was shocked at how cheap the thing was put together. We're talking about door panels flexing/denting from the passenger leaning on it during turns. Let's just say he crossed that truck off his list.
02-21-2006, 01:19 AM
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Ike, I have listed where you have backtracked and thought you could elude me. I have not backtracked anywhere, because I don't need to.
Many people have already agreed with me in their posts. That doesn't mean your simple idea of "if it sells, it lives" is completely wrong or insane. Even if the RX8 and rotary are axed, it doesn't necessarily mean you were right. Mazda would definitely have considered a lot of factors beyond simple RX8-only economics, even if it gets axed. What is clear, however, is the factors that I brought up are not insane but are quite reasonable, if more complex than people normally consider.
This thread topic is not about me or Ike. This is a worthwhile thread topic.
Many people have already agreed with me in their posts. That doesn't mean your simple idea of "if it sells, it lives" is completely wrong or insane. Even if the RX8 and rotary are axed, it doesn't necessarily mean you were right. Mazda would definitely have considered a lot of factors beyond simple RX8-only economics, even if it gets axed. What is clear, however, is the factors that I brought up are not insane but are quite reasonable, if more complex than people normally consider.
This thread topic is not about me or Ike. This is a worthwhile thread topic.
02-21-2006, 01:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Japan8
Woah.
But... those small Nissan trucks (Frontier?) are ****. My father is looking for a replacement for his ancient Toyota pickup (with over 200k mi and still going... but in need of retirement). He was checking out a 2004 or 2005 and was shocked at how cheap the thing was put together. We're talking about door panels flexing/denting from the passenger leaning on it during turns. Let's just say he crossed that truck off his list.
But... those small Nissan trucks (Frontier?) are ****. My father is looking for a replacement for his ancient Toyota pickup (with over 200k mi and still going... but in need of retirement). He was checking out a 2004 or 2005 and was shocked at how cheap the thing was put together. We're talking about door panels flexing/denting from the passenger leaning on it during turns. Let's just say he crossed that truck off his list.
02-21-2006, 01:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Cooder
What is clear, however, is the factors that I brought up are not insane but are quite reasonable, if more complex than people normally consider.
And who is this speedERdoc you refer to?