Japan8

Good job simplifying his argument

I agree too. If you also factor in how Mazda is able to amortize the costs of the RX-8 platform with the MX-5 and possibly a Kabura-based car... it only makes this argument strong. Lastly adding in the fact that more RX-8's have been sold than FD's... even if sales are on the decline... it's still doing decently. Declining sales... well the car IS due for a facelift (and we all wish more power)... most cars do see a decline in sales as the design gets old...

A facelift RX-8 and a next gen RX-8 are on the books as of the present. In a year the next gen may not... in a year the world may end. Let's deal with "what is" and not "what if" here...

rotarygod

The RX-8 is in no danger of going away any time soon. It's sales are also not doing bad. I don't know how many times certain people need to be blatantly schooled over and over again on this fact.

Ike

I wouldn't have to point it out so often if you didn't insist that sales weren't poor. Compared to an FD they don't look so bad as you've pointed out, but sales are far short of Mazda/Ford goals and are declining rapidly. The RX-8 should be selling really well considering all the great press and awards, it's just not the case.

Dinhx8

I think the rx8 does reflect postively on Mazda. Its won many awards, engine of the year awards, 10 best, and other comparos. It gets bashed by street racers on forums which I could care less about in terms of generating what constitutes 'respect' in the automotive world.

I know you don't agree with the bashing, which is cool, but my point is simply "enthusiast communties" doesn't equal "credible communities". So its hard to say that because of 'enthusiast' communtities the rx8 isn't a postive reflection on Mazda, because in the 'professional communty'- being journalists, it has garned praise and generally respected.

I think Mazda's main goal in building the 8 was keeping a rotary yet learning from what halted sales of the FD. It wasn't desinged to be a Taurus to just generate sales- they just did their best to keep a balance, and appeal to people who want that balance.

RENESIS_NEENJA

well said! I agree completly!
but seriously guys go to ANY car forum.. you know whats gonna happen? cars are gonna get bashed! no matter what car you own, someone is going to think theirs' is better! when the SRT-4 guys come to our site we bash them because they're ugly and FWD, we go over there they bash us because we're slower and overpriced...... whatever........

RENESIS_NEENJA

What the fizzle!? I can't edit mah post! ohh well.... I've already forgot what I was gonna add anyway ....

Krankor

The RX-8 was absolutely the right car at the right time.

For me.

As far as sales, I am steadfast in my belief that they could have sold a lot more cars if the marketting wasn't so abysmal/non-existent. The overwhelming majority of people don't even know the car exists, and the next largest group only know that it's a car that hugs you. It was almost by pure luck that I happened to stumble upon the 8 myself.

Cooder

BTW, Nissan ads are either bad or nonexistent and they've still managed to skyrocket. But I agree, not every company can take advantage of that.

Mazda is not the biggest richest car company. Even with limited ads, Mazda as a whole seems to be growing. When I compare Nissan's and Mazda's recent recovery from the graveyard, I see shortcuts and trickery with Nissan but little of that with Mazda (as a whole). The new Nissan products are goodlooking, fun to drive, but flawed in many areas of engineering and materials. The flaws were not incidental; they were strategically planned and placed. When your business plan involves how to sell flawed products, you must rely on deception and manipulation of perception, and Nissan accomplished that masterfully. Execution was well done and Nissan reaped the profits.

In contrast, I see Mazda doing things more slowly and in the old-fashioned way, the right way, focusing on each aspect of engineering a step at a time. Five or six years ago, Mazda decided to focus on handling and zoom zoom. Everything was about perfect platform design and chassis balance. That was the first step. This concept has now permeated every single model in Mazda's lineup. The second step seemed to be push the envelope with exterior and interior design elements. Mazda is now a leader in this area and we see all kinds of cars, including Mercedes, copying the RX8 front fenders and suicide doors. The Miata, MPS 6, and CX7 continue this concept of leadership in design. However, the weak link at Mazda has always been the powerplants in terms of HP and mileage. Mileage is not the primary thing in most Americans' minds and Mazda has always been in the middle of the pack there with its piston engines, which is fine. But HP is more and more in the public's awareness and Mazdas have always been in the lower range. Mazda's spiel has been fun to drive is about chassis balance and you don't want to hurt that. But now I sense Mazda is going for more HP. This is the third step. I see a plan to spread FI throughout the lineup and to develop the MZR 4-banger for high outpout and put that engine center stage. The turbocharged last generation Miata was the beginning that has continued into the MPS 6, MPS 3, and CX7. I wonder if pushing the MZR in NA form is on the mind of Mazda with the new racing series using a 300 HP NA MZR. I predict next up will be to develop a high output V6 in both NA and FI form to go head to head with the best 6's that Nissan, Honda, and Toyota have to offer. I think Mazda realizes that Nissan, Honda, Toyota and even Mitsubishi and Subaru were leaving it behind in the HP war and that the HP war is here to stay for a while.

Doing things the right way might be slower and step by step but might also mean smarter and better long term health. Full concept marketing must first be full concept engineering. In this sense, I think Mazda has done it better than Nissan.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

agreed.

Mazda is building up slowly but surely. 3 years ago, u hardly see any Mazda cars on the road. You can see a Protege or a Millennina once in a while but very unlikely ...

Now, I can see lots of 3 and 6 running around.

Is this a success? My Opinion : Yes

We just gotta wait another 3 yrs or so , then we'll see whats the result.

trickshot

I think if Mazda pulled the RX-8, it would be a little too reactionary.

Cooder

Well, if Mazda did that, it would be paranoid and stupid. Mazda is neither. But not everyone is like that. Give it just a little more time, and I think there will be many jealous factions out there. Mazda is doing things out there on its own and with no jealousy, fear, or distraction. It's focused on its work and understands it has no place for complacency, idleness, or idolatry, which can only bring yourself down. You can only respect that.

Ike

Nissan has had some of the best ad campaigns of any car manufacturer the last decade. A huge part of their success was in large part the ad campaign for the Maxima, with songs like Ton' Diner, The Crystal Method, and Clubed to Death, Though they would have been better had this one stayed on TV longer http://media.putfile.com/Nissan-*****

After reading your second paragraph I shall bid you adieu.... Wow, just wow...

Cooder

As you know, the current Maxima isn't doing so well. Neither is the Murano, although there were some initial ads and it appears they're trying to get attention back onto the Murano right now. All this doesn't matter because Nissan has several other cars selling well and producing a lot of profit for it. Similarly, it doesn't make sense for Mazda to spend too much of its limited ad money on the RX8. It's also unnecessary since other models are bringing in profit.

You must also be aware of Nissan's direct and indirect admission of the shortcuts it took, which is now biting it in the *** a little. The direct admission is only semi-direct where Nissan has acknowledged that when you put out that many new models in such a short period of time without enough high level engineers to go around, you are bound to face a mountain of recalls and warranty service, which is what they're facing right now. Nissan will be ok for three reasons. First, their profits are huge. Second, they responded very quickly, for example, fixing the interiors of the Altima and G35 (indirect admissions) and quickly making the G35 sedan more like the coupe in exterior and HP. That's pretty damn smart. Third, they are moving fast forward with even more new cars and next generations, in which fixes are sure to be embedded.

Mazda's plan has been to go step by step. Nissan's business plan was to get a ton of goodlooking cars out and obscure the flaws and worry about fixing them later. A lesser company with fewer resources, less energy, a conventional business plan, and a conventional leadership (like GM and Ford) would have failed. Nissan is trying to fix the flaws quickly and then move forward. Keep in mind that the idea of putting products out even with flaws is the backbone philosophy of 99.9999999% of businesses in the history of the world. Get it out to market NOW, not later. Who hasn't heard the arrogant statement "I can sell anything"? That is actually a philosophy that is instilled in virtually every red-blooded businessman, that the true test of how worthy a businessman you are is if you can sell any product, even the shittiest product. Mazda has had some issues as well, notably in the renesis and MPS 6, but both these cars are not for high volume sales. Nissan's issues are across the board but they are still relatively anonymous and Nissan is addressing them quickly and moving forward.

BlueEyes

That commercial is hilarious.

Cooder

I didn't see the commercial. Do you think it's going to help the Maxima sell better?

Cooder

Nissan has in fact had some of the worst ad campaigns in the history of ads. When I was a kid, they had the Nissan "family" ad campaign with the dad and the cute little girl Erin. Industry "pundits" now conclude that the problem was the ads had nothing to do with the cars.

Just before the recent Nissan rebirth, they were trying to sell that really really crappy small pickup truck. The ad had the truck doing a slide in a puddle of water, camera was close up, showing an amazing amount of cowl flex, which is NOT a good thing! The whole damn front and side of the truck was flexing. Meanwhile, the background music was rock n roll singing "The best there ever was..." That was the funniest, most pathetic, and most arrogant car ad I had ever seen. The pickup truck went nowhere, of course. But it wasn't about the truck, right? It was about portraying Nissan as a hot, fun, and happening car company. Do you think that ad succeeded with that? Hell no.

About the same time was another similarly arrogant and pathetic ad for another Nissan car, I forgot which one. It had another classic rock song that was wrongly selected for the ad and really really annoying. That string of ads portraying Nissan as a rock and roll company were absolutely terrible and did nothing for the company.

Shortly after all that BS came the current era and spate of Nissan "CPR" cars and the "Shift_#####" ads, which I think were very effective by focusing on a new thinking and philosophy that is outside the box. But come on, Maxima ads doing wonders for Nissan as a whole?

Ike

Your talking about old commercials when they were struggling. What part of in "the last decade" do you not understand?

Nissan has won 7 Effies (The Grammy equal for the commercial world) since the year 2000, Mazda has never won one. These are awards moreso for effectiveness rather than entertainment value. The Maxima campaigns did not save Nissan but that ad campaign helped send them in the right direction. They stopped doing cutesy ads that were entertaining and started showcasing the cars first and formost, usually with an infectious song and some aggressive driving. After the Maxima commercials, the Xterra ads come to mind, the launch of the 350Z,the launch of the Altima, the latest 350Z campaign is the same old Nissan formula and it works, it's a great commercial.

Meanwhile Mazda has a freaking car hugging its owner, if I owned an RX-8 I'd want to puke every time I saw that commercial. The whole zoom zoom campaign is terribly annoying and if anything makes me not want to buy a Mazda car, at least they got rid of that obnoxious kid.

Cooder

Last decade means since 1995 or so. Sounds like you mean last 5 years. The ads since 2000 have nothing to do with infectious classic rock songs.

That string of classic rock ads were within the last 10 years and they were terrible. They did nothing for Nissan and they were before the current Nissan resurgence. The ridiculous Nissan Frontier ad that I mentioned earlier actually won a 2002 Effie, so yes you are right when you say the Effie's are just like the Grammy's, which the artists take with a grain of salt. Seventy percent of the score comes from creative and media. Visually it was interesting but the truck sucked, sold like the worst crap, maybe sales went up after the commercial which meant it still sold like crap, had a hilariously misplaced rock soundtrack that sang "the best there ever was," and had no impact at all on Nissan as a whole.

We don't need to compare Mazda ads to Nissan ads. That's beside the point. In fact the Effie Award winners back to 1994 can hardly be said to have a significant effect on sales. Last year's award for the Nissan G35 all wheel drive launch? Only 30% of the score comes from "proof of results." What proof and how do you prove it? They going to count up internet "impressions"? They don't have the resources to verify everything and the companies themselves present their own data. Come on. It's a fun award that can't be taken too seriously. BTW, I count 6 awards since 2000, not 7.

Ike

I'm fully aware of what the last decade means, if I had a great meal yesterday and said it's one of the greatest meals I've had in the last decade would you argue with me that it can't be so just because I had some awful meals in 1997?
And no, I don't mean the last 5 years, Nissan had some greats ads in the mid 90s as well, they just didn't help sales much. The "Toys" commercial from '96 was picked by Rolling Stone and Time magazine as commercial of the year.

Point out once where I said infectious classic rock song. I'm talking about songs such as Clubed to Death by Rob Dougan (?), Tom's Diner by Suzanne Vega, Blur's Song 2, Breeder's Cannonball, Lenny Kravitz Fly Away, Morrisey How Soon is now, Morphine, Kinky's Mas, Air's Surfing on a Rocket, Thwe Vines' Ride, The Chemical Brothers, Modest Mouse, Lit, and many many more. Not a single one of them classic rock. Except for two commercials I can't recall much classic rock, even prior to 2000, one was Stevie Ray Vaughn Voodoo Chile and The Who Won't get Fooled again in one of those Maxima commercials that helped change the direction of Nissan, both occured in or after the year 2000 and were very successful ad Campaigns. I believe the slogan for the Maxima was, Cars Like It: 0.

Cooder

The Maxima ads helped change the direction of Nissan? No way. If so, then I guess a lot of thriving car companies like Honda and Toyota need to worry because they didn't win too many Effies in the last 5 years.

It's about the new Nissan products getting the public excited and the fact that just before, things were real bad. If you have exciting products coming out and the commercials happen to coincide, then of course they're going to correlate with increased sales. But to make a causal conclusion? I don't think so.

Mazda also went from down to up, even with very few ads. Honda and Toyota have been strong for years and their ads won few Effies. Taken together, it's about quality products and exciting products creating sales. When the products are exciting, even bad ads will help, although they will not win an Effie, with 70% of the score from creative and media. Although Nissan's ads of the last 5 years may have been judged creative, it would be much harder to establish and extremely unlikely regardless that they are responsible for increased sales. Of course, I'm not talking about Nissan's current "Shift_####" ads, which I think are good. I'm talking about those terrible rock ads (yes, the Frontier ad won an Effie in 2002, but it is still absolutely terrible. It won because of the nature of the criteria) just before the current Nissan upswing and new models.

Ike

This is what I was refuting, this has nothing to do with Honda and Toyota. You can admit you were wrong now.

Ike

Your first paragraph, much like your original argument, is so fallacy ladden I won't even bother...

Your second paragraph... point out once where I say anything to the contrary iof what you say there. In fact I even said a great ad campaign won't do you any good if you don't have a good product to go along with it.

You're hung up on the whole effie thing, let it go.

Cooder

(1) I sensed this in you. You are so focused on challenging people that you only see what you want, even with other peoples' words. Yes, many of the Nissan ads are bad, regardless of what Effie says. Ads for many of their cars are nonexistent. Of course, they have so many cars and they choose where they want to spend their ad money. What I said stands. No wavering, no backtracking.


(2) You did not fully absorb my initial post and you quickly attack my logic as "screwy" in your first post. You didn't consider my larger argument and erroneously overfocus on a direct connection between 350Z/G35 and RX8 sales. You assume it is all or nothing, that multiple forces that seem in opposition can't work simultaneously. And of course you are wrong. Many subsequent posters support my position. I am confident you now realize my logic was not "screwy" but you never posted a follow-up conceding anything. That isn't your style.

(3) You actually did not understand when I said Zeitgeist and the right thing at the right time, I was referring to the 350Z/G35. You directed your retort at the RX8 being neither, indicating you missed the point. Even your after the fact backtracking and misdirection attempts didn't fool me. You jumped the gun again and misunderstood again but instead of fessing up to it, you cover yourself up even more. This is your way. Instead of humiliating you further, I just let it go, evidence of which is when I posted "good point...." This thread topic is the best damn topic that's come up in some time and I don't want to ruin it because of some ego challenge. Let's focus on the topic, man.

(4) You keep pushing the 40% decline in RX8 sales without realizing that it has very little to do with and very little against my original hypothesis. It is as if you are on your own track and just can't even attempt to broaden your perspective. Even I said up front that our statements are not mutually exclusive.

(5) You backtrack again with the blabber about the ads when you say "last 10 years" covers everything you said. Haha!. Come on, man, when are you ever going to play it straight? If you knew exactly what you were talking about you would have said "last 5 years." The ads in the mid-90's were good? Ha ha, yeah right.

(6) You can admit you were wrong now. If you won't, I expect others soon will do it for you, just as they did earlier in the thread without addressing you directly (by supporting what I said). There is something rigid and extreme about your personality.

trickshot

I thought that cowl flex line sounded familiar. Did you write that yourself?

Cooder

No I got it from you, remember?