Racer X-8

Thanks for sharing.

I really really like FD's and appreciate hearing from owners of FD's.

I like to believe what you have stated, that a healthy rotary won't flood, but some pretty big rotorheads have stated otherwise in this thread > https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...0&page=1&pp=15

The new battery and plugs for the 8 are a MUST in my book.

How does a person convince his or herself that he or she is NOT properly driving and / or maintaining their 8, to the point where they must now obey the "never shut down cold" rule? Know what I'm asking? If a properly driven and maintained rotary won't flood, then it stands to reason that the opposite is true. Similar to AA, the poor drivers and maintainers must then somehow stand and declare their misgivings, and never shut down cold as a result. How's that going to happen?

Nah, best we stick to the good ole "never shut down cold" rule. Those who choose to disregard the rule - and then flood it - can then at least be told they were warned - that it's just one of those things that you must at least do knowingly - shutting it down cold, that is.

We have 98 pages of stuff here, and a whole lot of floodings have one thing in common - they happened after shutting it down cold. (I don't need to be reminded that there ARE evidently some exceptions, so please don't! I'm talking about a whole lot, nobody ever said ALL.)

I really really like FD's and appreciate hearing from owners of FD's.

thered1996

My original vote still stands...I have never flooded my car. I've always thought it would be inconvenient to do so -- so I never shut it down cold. I drive the **** out of the car and maintain it to the best of my ability, so I might get away with it...but why invite the problem?

My dealer *did* flood it. They 'fixed' the problem by installing a new starter. They would have replaced the battery, but they wisely noted that I already had (with a nice Bosch unit.)

A wise man once said, "never put it away wet." (I think he was referring to ropes and other nautical items.) But in this case, I'm applying it to spark plugs although it fits for so many situations.

T-von

My extensive ownership experience speaks otherwise. Maybe I should have disclosed more of my background. Though you may not know from my post count, I'm one of the more experience rotor heads hear. I've owned and driven rotary powered vehicles since 1991.

81 GSL carburated Rx7
84 GSL carburated Rx7
91 NA convertible Rx7
94 Rx7 twin turbo

Before I understood these engines and how to maintain them, I would flood the 81 model on a regular bases. Push starting was how I got it running as there was no holding the throttle to cut the fuel. This car had poor maintenance and was granny driven all the time. By granny driven I mean it was shifted at 3,000 rpm's all the time. It had zero carbon cleanings and 142k miles. I bought the 81 back in 1991.

After I lost the 81 to over heating, I bought the 84 in 1995. I took care of this car a little better than the older one. I changed the plugs and fuel filter more often but had zero carbon cleanings. I still granny drove the car but changing the plugs helped as this one never flooded. In 1999 I bought the 91 vert. Now since I had 2 rx7's to drive, I didn't drive the 84 that much. Not good as the lack of driving allowed for the carbon that built up in the 84 engine to take on more of a powdery/flaky form. After letting that car sit up for a month, it carbon locked on start up in 2000. I can show you pics of all the carbon when I pulled that engine apart. RIP at 150k miles

My 91 vert had excellent maintenance. I changed the plugs and filter once a year or 12k religiously. I used distilled/filtered water for the cooling system. I thought I had the maintenance down pack by now as it never flooded. I was wrong. It flooded once back in 2002 "2yrs after I bought it". I had started the car cold and moved it a short distance in preparation to change out the steering rack when it happened. Holding the throttle wouldn't help so I resorted to my old school method....the push start with another vehicle. This method worked every time because it got the engine spinning over fast enough so the plugs would ignite all the excess fuel. The engine had no choice but to run when done this way. After I got it running, I wondered why now after all this time? I've done everything that should keep carbon out of the engine. At this time I still didn't think my granny driving was the problem.


In January of 2003 I finally got my baby, the Fd. It had 65k on it's original engine. I promised myself the maintenance would be flawless. I had already been apart of the Rx7 club forum. Talk about a huge help as getting this car got me more involved in posting. I thought I knew everything about rotary's. Boy was I wrong. It didn't take me long to educate myself though. I added a downpipe and modded the stock air box. It almost over boosted with these little mods until I added a boost controller.

The maintenance of the Fd was virtually the same as the 91 vert however, I did discovered on the rx7 forum how bad granny driving was for these engines and how it accelerated the carbon build-up process. That's when I looked back at the time when my 91 vert flooded and thought ahhhhh. I had done everything right maintenance wise except for the way I drove the car. I immediately started doing my research on anything carbon cleaning related. I read running the engine hard from time to time helped more than anything. I then started to research my fd driving habits. My fd was granny driven all the time however, I also has moments for red lining from time to time. Seriously, it's really hard not to run the fd's engine though it's entire rpm range.

I granny drove my fd so much that when I got on it, I could see black smoke exit the tale pipe. Damn I thought...carbon sure builds up fast! Not really. That was nothing more than cheap 7-11 gas. I changed over to Texaco w/techron and noticed improvements in the color "which was more grayish".

Later on I started to find post about the water steam cleaning method. I began to implement this in my regular maintenance. 2 quarts per rotor was what I did twice a year. This method also cleaned out my exhaust which helps the o2 sensor stay clean. I then spoke to one guy who's father had used engine flush in his rotary religiously. I began to do the same thing. I really couldn't tell if this worked or not but I kept doing it every oil change.

This all brings me up to the point in my previous post explaining when I intentionally tried to flood my Fd. I strongly believe all the maintenance I've done coupled with all my ownership experience has actually worked. The water cleanings, the occasional redlining, changing the plugs so often, the fuel filter, and even the engine flush. Good luck trying to flood it. Not gonna happen "even with over 100k on the clock". I actually have even more proof that this style of maintenance works as recently, I've actually finally blown that engine due to over boosting. Long story!

Anyways I blew the engine on the freeway and was still able to drive the car to my apartment on one rotor. When I got to my apartment, I then confirmed that the engine was blown. I called my pops and told him the bad news. He asked how was I gonna get it over to his house as I didn't want it sitting at my complex undrivable. I told him I would start the car and drive it over. I went to turn the ignition, gave a little gas. It struggled a little bit but it fired up. I then drove the car the 10 miles to my parents house were it sits right now waiting for me to install my 20b. This happened back in November.

This is the #1 reason I believe my maintenance worked as I was still able to start and drive my car on 1 rotor even with over 108,000 miles on the original engine not to mention me trying to intentionally flood the engine last year. You have to have very strong compression and good spark for this to even be a possibility. Hell I wouldn't doubt that if I put a battery on it right now that it might still start after 3 months on one rotor.



I hope this really long RG style post makes some since to some of you. I stand by my believe that a properly driven and maintained rotary wont flood.

Peace!

Racer X-8

Good post, thanks, really. Now's a good time to explain the steam cleaning method, if you would. I know that searching would probably work, but, we're all pretty lazy.

The carbon build-up thing is very true - my chief RX-8 mechanic told me that he has replaced more engines due to granny driving than all other reasons combined!

As for me, 3000 rpm is where I DOWNshift hehe. Really! That's lugging it!

zzum-zum

This is not true! I am not a rotor head, but I bought my 8 in Nov. 03. In December it flooded and would not start. My fault - I shut it off cold. I faithfully maintain the car, but it has flooded once every winter since, for a total of four tows to the shop. The first time was me, last year was the starter (replaced under warranty) but the other two times the car started with a high idle and when it kicked down (by itself - I never touched the gas) the car cut out and would not start. It's a little frustrating, but I still love the car!

I had read in here that push starting will start it when it floods. What's the difference between the starter turning over the engine and push starting?

T-von

This is easily explained! Yes it is true however, your situation (and most others who bought the early Rx8's) is also complicated a little more due to the fact your Rx8 having really bad tuning from the factory. The 1st 8's brought over had too much fuel being dumped in the engine. The positives, this additional fuel keeps the catalytic converter from running too hot, which could cause it to prematurely fail. The negatives, too much fuel fouls the plugs prematurely which makes it harder for the plugs to ignite the excess fuel being dumped in. This is also further complicated in the cold as the ecu is programmed to dump in extra fuel. Mazda has since had better programming in the later cars. Did you know that extensive amounts of idling fouls your plugs faster than anything else? How about letting the car warm up before you drive it? Not good! All these things lead to potential flooding. I'm not saying this is what you do you your car, just trying to educate you.

I do also! How do you maintain your 8? Please explain! Just remember my previous comments about my 91 vert. Maintenance is key but, how you run the engine will make the most difference. Bottom line what have you personally done to keep carbon out of your engine?



The much higher rpm's that can be generated. The starter can only rotate the engine over so fast (250rpm's) on a full charge. When the vehicle is push started, now your talking about 1,000+ rpm's in 1st gear. The faster rotation of the engine helps builds more compression and pressure inside the combustion chamber to help ignite the excess fuel.

Most people don't understand that spark plugs are mostly designed to ignite fuel vapor, not fuel in it's liquid form. When a rotary floods there's too much fuel in the combustion chamber (liquid fuel). This accompanied by too little compression (sticking seals from excessive carbon build-up) makes it damn near impossible to start at low rpm's. You need the higher rpm's and the pressure generated in the combustion chamber from those higher rpm's, to help the fuel to vaporize (which causes the bigger explosion). Get it? Keep in mind push starting only works with manuels.

T-von

It's simple! Hook a 4' long vacuum hose to the vacuum nippes shown in the pic.
This pic is of an auto 4 port Renesis. It's the two nipples in the lower intake manifold just above the exhaust header.


The one in the back goes to the rear rotor and the other the front rotor. Do one nippe at a time. You'll need help doing this. Have someone else hold the engine rpm's at 3k, then submerge the vacuum line in a quart or two of water. The engine vacuum will suck it down. Make sure the person applying throttle doesn't let the engine die as it will be difficult to start with water vapor in the combustion chamber. You will then see a ton of white smoke exit the engine (which is why you should do this out in the country somewhere so you don't scare your neighbors) LOL. This process will steam clean the internals of your engine and exhaust. Repeat the process for the other rotor. After you are done keep the rpm's at 3k for another minuet to make sure all water vapor has cleared. I do this process twice a year. Some of the Rx7 guys with boost/vacuum gauges have noticed an increase in engine vacuum after doing this process. The increase in vacuum inditates improved compression as a result of the internal seals freeing up from carbon sticking.

FYI I had a friend check my engine codes on my 91 vert with 152k on the chassis cause I had a check engine light. I told him I was curious to see if my orginal o2 sensor was bad. He said he couldn't find any codes for it meaning it was still working. Yep the water/steam cleaning really works.



Exactly! Excessive carbon build-up will kill any rotary faster than you believe. If people always did regular carbon cleanings, then granny driving would never be an issue.


Then you shouldn't have any problems unless your ecu starts dumping in more fuel than can be combusted.

Racer X-8

Sweet! Thanks!!!

So, three questions; Do you do this at full operating temperature? And, do you let the engine suck the whole quart or two all in one continuous duration? And, what are these nipples normally doing?

T-von

1. Yes make sure the engine is fully warmed up.

2. One continuous duration is what I've done and been told. Some people will also substitute carb cleaner for the water. In that case you need to do it in small intervals since the alcohol in the carb cleaner will raise the exhaust temps cause it burns hotter (so I've been told). I just use water.

3. Those nipples on the auto are just capped off. If you want to keep constant cabs on your engine vacuum, you can hook up a vacuum gauge to anyone of them. It's a great way for you to see if your loosing vacuum/compression inside your engine.

zzum-zum

T-von
Thanks for the concise answers. You make a lot of sense.
My problem is that living in Northern VA you almost can't help but granny drive!! I have registered for the MDA Grand Course event in June - I'm looking forward to it and seeing what the 8 can do.
My maintenance schedule is basically 3K oil changes, plugs and filter every year and most of the rest of the Mazda recommended maintenance.
I'll have to give the steam clean a try. I had a neighbor years ago who was a jet mechanic at Andrews AFB. He used to pour a 1/2 cup of water down his carburetor every couple months and swore it was the secret to long engine life.
My car is out of warranty (62k miles), but would the steam cleaning be anything that would void the warranty on one still under warranty?

Racer X-8

T-von, any need to be concerned about the temporary lubrication loss?

skorndo

This is my case exactly. Car was running fine til recall, and never ran well since with sputtering idles, stuttering thru gears, increase vibration, then this morning, moved it out of the garage, went back later to move it back and it wouldnt start. I had a 69 Impala that I could flood, but I dont think a 30k dollar car should. I love this car and hate it at the same time.

Racer X-8

My dad bought a new '69 Impala, and that's the year I got my license. 350 V8, 4 bbl carb, positraction, oh yeah! The prettiest deep blue... I loved that car!

So,
1) Make sure you have the new starter and battery.
2) Do not granny drive it.
3) Do not shut it down cold.
4) Do this steam cleaning that T-von just described every once in a while.
5) Make sure your plugs are in perfect shape.

Since the reflash of the recall, mine has been running fine, but I'm seeing like 1, maybe 2 mpg decrease. Not sure if it's the weather, so I've not said anything about it - till now anyway... but yeah, I would like to see yet another flash to fix that if it's for real.

I've never flooded mine. I do - without exception - ever - things 1,2,3,5 and thing 4 sounds like a very good thing. If you truly love your car, then you should know that it's truly different than a piston popper - and because of that - you need to pay attention to things that are different than those things of a piston popper - and not turn around and complain about having to. You do it happily, knowing that it's special and that it's so cool to drive otherwise. I'm just saying those things cuz that's how I think about it, I'm not admonishing you or anybody else...

T-von

You drive and auto right? There are easy ways to get in the rpm ranges neccessary for this engine without breaking the law. You can simply put the gear selector in manual mode and cruise on the free way once a week in second gear for about 30sec. Also don't be afraid to floor it like this. If your driving around 60mph, this will put your rpm's over 6k. You do this once a week, I'll gaurangtee your rotary will love you for it. These engines are designed to be reved, so don't be scared and think your going to throw a rod of something. LOL!



I really can't answer that question, however, I've never heard of anyone having any long term problems doing this.

T-von

Nope! Remember my 84 Rx7 that carbon locked? I ran that engine and put 6k on it in 3 months driving back and forward to work with my omp in idle sip mod. The older carburated Rx7's had a mechanical linkage to the throttle body. When more throttle was applied, the linkage connected to the omp allowed the omp to inject more metering oil for higher rpm's. This linkage was held in place by a small "C" clip. Prior to this mileage I put on my car, I pulled the engine to do an inspection and replace the clutch. In doing so I had to disconnect that "C" clip to remove my omp and intake. Well I stupidly reused that old rusted "C" clip and it came off without me knowing. Anyways I put 6k more miles on my car (all highway driving) with my omp only suppling enough oil for idle mode. When I broke my engine down after carbon locking, I didn't notice any unusual chattering of the rotor housings.

With that said, the water steam clean doesn't last long enough for anyone to be concerned about lubrication issues. But if people are still paranoid, you can easily premix 2cycle oil prior to doing the steam treatment.

zzum-zum

No - I drive a manual. I get the engine up to 6-7K regularly. I am always seeing posts talking about red-lining frequently. I seldom rev the engine that high.

savedsol

I just bought my used 8 a couple of weeks ago - 04 manual w/sport pkg and 29K miles. I've been trolling this board for years and am very aware of the flooding issue - but I don't know if it's my problem. I can drive for 20 miles engine will be warmed up of course, but if I stop to get gas run into a store etc that takes minimal time the engine will just crank and crank and sputter. I've tried the manuals suggestion of holding the pedal down etc but it does diddly. Instead I just have to crank for 5-6 sec, shut down, crank 5-6 sec, shut down and so on until she fires up. I just replaced the battery with a Optima red top too. Grrrr. Dealer said the starter recall was performed. Can anyone point me in the right direction?

Go48

You can call the 800 number for MNAO in your owners manual and have them check on exactly which recalls/services have been performed on the car. You'll need your VIN. Make sure the most recent recall has been done. I'll post the link to that one. (Actually two PDF files.)

http://www.finishlineperformance.com...res_recall.pdf
http://www.finishlineperformance.com...ecall4206F.pdf

The newer starter is a must for quick starting, so you may want to raise the car on a hoist to verify for yourself that the starter has, in fact, been replaced with the newer version. You may need a mirror to see the data plate on the starter. See my attached image for part numbers of the starters.

Also, you might consider replacing the spark plugs, or at least removing them to see if they need replacing.

Finally, I would advise you to take the car into the dealer and tell them of your warm engine-hard starting problem. Hard starts of a warm engine smack of low engine compression. Make sure they do a proper compression test. And if that's the root cause of your problem, you want to get it taken care of under warranty. (Think engine replacement.)

savedsol

Oh boy. Thanks for your help. I report back in a couple of days when I get a chance to do all of this.

Update: The above recall has been completed

thered1996

The coil pack replacement made a significant difference in starting for me. Check for that on the service list as a backup to the starter replacement.

If everything has been done recently, here are a few things I've seen over the years (both RX8 and non-RX8):

- Leaks in the intake are a common culprit.

Make sure everything is plugged in right, especially the main intake. If the car was bought from a dealer, they may have cleaned under the hood and dislodged something.

- Your spark plugs might be loose.

After the most recent replacement of plugs and coil packs (by the dealer as a part of a recall), I noted that my plug wires were tangled up. During the process of untangling them I decided to check on the conditon of the plugs...not that I expected a problem, but I wanted to see what they looked like after only 300 or so miles.

The one I chose to check turned out to be little better than finger tight. Being ****, I got out my torque wrench and tightened it to factory spec. One other needed significant tightening as well.

Hope this helps if the previous, excellent advise does not.

Clad

If the warranty runs out and the dealer replaces the plugs its $100.00. I have had mine to flood 5 times. If it floods it really floods. There will so much fuel in the engine case it you take the plugs out and turn the engine over to clear out the case it will fog up out of the fender. Oh I didn't tell you, the best way I found to remove the spark plugs is remove the left front tire and use an extension and universal.

gusmahler

I thought the latest flash got rid of the flooding problem? I flooded the car last year. It was towed to the dealer where they did the latest flash. I had no problems until this morning, but now it won't start.

On Thursday, I started the car, noticed the tire pressure light was on, and noted the flat tire. So I turned the car off and took the other car to work. This morning, as I was planning to go to the tire store, the car refused to start. I assume its flooding because the engine turns.

savedsol

Ok two quick questions. Since the car was used and although I had it inspected, is there anyway to assess if there was a turbo on it? Also, does anyone have a link to engine recall?

Go48

Someone else will have to address your first question. Other than mysterious holes in obvious places I don't know how you would know. If you know who the previously owner was, ask him/her their forum name and then do some searching here for their postings. If it was turboed, they would certainly have mentioned that on the forum.

It is not an engine recall. It's a voluntary emissions recall by Mazda and you will find it by clicking on the sticky thread below this one that has links to "Technical Service Bulletins". Just click through a couple of links and you will be at the finishlineperformance.com site that has the bulletins and recalls. The one you want is near the top of the list.

savedsol

Mazda N America said that recall was completed. I was stranded several more times this fine weekend. Same story. I've found if I just hang out for 15-20 minutes she'll start right up. Guess I'll take it in. I won't even bother messing around with checking plugs. I'll keep you posted. Thank you all for all of your help!

EDIT 3/14 - Dealer called today to say they are stumped. They asked what kind of gas I put in it. When I said Amoco Ultimate 93 he said he was really stumped and they'll look at it some more tomorrow.

EDIT 3/16 - Picked up the car today. Apparently the starter had never been replaced with the updated one. Drove home shut it off and it started up again right away. Still cold here though. It will be in the 60's again in a week or so.