Rotarygod's rotary oil tech blog
09-13-2006, 12:02 PM
#276
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Going synthetic with your oil is a lot like going vegetarian... it's better for you. When mass marketing wins a convert, he or she will go to AutoZone, Avdance Auto or even WalMart and buy the synthetic oil of choice based on either the commercial or the looks of the bottle, and a lot of them based on that will buy Mobil 1 for their prized baby - most definitely not RP, Red Line or Amsoil.
09-13-2006, 12:05 PM
#277
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Originally Posted by rotarygod
I have always stated that API standards are minimum standards but they also have maximum standards which is silly. Race oils do not meet API requirements because they have too much of a good thing.
09-13-2006, 12:13 PM
#278
Originally Posted by PhotoMunkey
I find it illogical that RG assumes that people who would put Mobil 1 in their RENESIS might also be the sort to drive it easily... My experience with Chevy customers and Mobil 1 is exactly the opposite.
I would also hazard a guess that if Yamamoto-san did specifically single out Mobil 1 as being bad for the RENESIS, I should think that Mazda has conducted a LITTLE more research into this than they're willing to acknowledge officially.
I also suspect that the bearing-loads in a rotary engine are not as high as in a conventional piston engine, and that the shear force that a synthetic would be required to handle is just not there. Heat, moisture, or combustion by-product contamination would be the main enemy of our rotarys' oil, and for that a regular high-quality oil serviced at regular intervals should suffice.
I do think that RG and others have posted enough real-world evidence to support the believe that SOME synthetics work just fine in the rotary engines. I'm just not certain that it's necessary to use a synthetic in a rotary street car.
As I say this though, realize that I write from a position of practically zero rotary experience, and I live in a friggin' HOT desert climate with only 5W-20 oil in my Renesis. Until the OMP-reconfiguring reflash is done on my car, I worry constantly about cruising across the desert, but worry more that a thicker oil might actually flow less easily through the OMP if I were to try it. The "20" or "30" is actually what the oil THICKENs up to when heated. A thicker oil will flow less easily at temperature so would my engine be MORE at risk of damage, pre-recall flash, in this desert, with a 5W-30?
I know the rest of the world receives a 5W-30 oil recommendation but... don't they also receive a different OMP flash too? Different smog standards to adhere to? I don't think it's fair to simply second-guess Mazda on this because, until someone cracks the ECM 100%, Mazda's the one in control of the engine tuning and OMP flow in all markets. Not saying they've got it right, just that they're a little ahead of everyone else in what they know.
I would also hazard a guess that if Yamamoto-san did specifically single out Mobil 1 as being bad for the RENESIS, I should think that Mazda has conducted a LITTLE more research into this than they're willing to acknowledge officially.
I also suspect that the bearing-loads in a rotary engine are not as high as in a conventional piston engine, and that the shear force that a synthetic would be required to handle is just not there. Heat, moisture, or combustion by-product contamination would be the main enemy of our rotarys' oil, and for that a regular high-quality oil serviced at regular intervals should suffice.
I do think that RG and others have posted enough real-world evidence to support the believe that SOME synthetics work just fine in the rotary engines. I'm just not certain that it's necessary to use a synthetic in a rotary street car.
As I say this though, realize that I write from a position of practically zero rotary experience, and I live in a friggin' HOT desert climate with only 5W-20 oil in my Renesis. Until the OMP-reconfiguring reflash is done on my car, I worry constantly about cruising across the desert, but worry more that a thicker oil might actually flow less easily through the OMP if I were to try it. The "20" or "30" is actually what the oil THICKENs up to when heated. A thicker oil will flow less easily at temperature so would my engine be MORE at risk of damage, pre-recall flash, in this desert, with a 5W-30?
I know the rest of the world receives a 5W-30 oil recommendation but... don't they also receive a different OMP flash too? Different smog standards to adhere to? I don't think it's fair to simply second-guess Mazda on this because, until someone cracks the ECM 100%, Mazda's the one in control of the engine tuning and OMP flow in all markets. Not saying they've got it right, just that they're a little ahead of everyone else in what they know.
Again, biggest reason for Mazda to use 5w20 is .... they're partly own by Ford. and In USA market, when Ford said Yes to something, Mazda gotta say Yes to the same thing.
09-13-2006, 12:36 PM
#279
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Originally Posted by PhotoMunkey
I find it illogical that RG assumes that people who would put Mobil 1 in their RENESIS might also be the sort to drive it easily... My experience with Chevy customers and Mobil 1 is exactly the opposite.
09-13-2006, 12:40 PM
#280
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Originally Posted by r0tor
you may want to read up on why there is a limit to "too much of a good thing" and then why race oils are not good for street cars...
The API didn't make a change a few years ago because too much was a problem. They did it for political reasons.
09-13-2006, 12:51 PM
#281
Originally Posted by rotarygod
Can, bottle, whatever. You know what I mean.
Originally Posted by rotarygod
Don't expect any oil to give you a noticable amount of power gain. It takes about 10% more just to feel it with any accuracy and even the best oils will give you only a 2-3% increase over the worst ones.
09-13-2006, 12:52 PM
#282
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What about using pre-mix?? Would this outweigh the whole synthetic vs. dino debate?
Maybe even a completely separate 2 cycle motor oil reservoir. It shouldn't be that difficult to set up, and since you have to check and fill oil routinely on a rotary engine anyway, it shouldn't be that much more inconvenient to check and refill a 2 stroke tank, esp. if it can be installed with a simple sensor connected to the HUD.
Maybe even a completely separate 2 cycle motor oil reservoir. It shouldn't be that difficult to set up, and since you have to check and fill oil routinely on a rotary engine anyway, it shouldn't be that much more inconvenient to check and refill a 2 stroke tank, esp. if it can be installed with a simple sensor connected to the HUD.
09-13-2006, 01:29 PM
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Yes, but your supposition is that the engines suffered more of a carbon issue because they were driven easy, rather than from the Mobil 1 which Yamamato doesn't like. You are supposing that there's a correlation between driving easy and carbon in the intake ports. Mazda tech was supposing that there's a correlation between some synthetics, and carbon in the intake ports (esp. in light of the bulletin issued in Australia where legal issues might not preclude it). I believe that Mazda would have only issued such a bulletin after testing and disassembling an engine with synthetic in it, and not based on the tear-down of a customer's engine (although I allow that's what might have happened if the customer had oil change records backing up his/her issue).
My supposition, and logic, could be wrong too, as we don't have many facts to go on in this case. Mobil 1 MAY be the most widely-used synthetic oil in the world *in conventional engines* but this might not be true about rotaries. Rotary owners *in general* have a higher degree of mechanical knowledge *AND* are more likely IMHO to drive their cars harder than the normal Joe on the street. With the Chevys the question was invariably "Hey, I drive my car/truck/ kind of hard... should I be using a synthetic oil?". My standard answer was always "Yes, certainly!" and not because the dealership made more money that way. Our profit was better on conventional oil in a drum.
Your supposition is also based on your own experience with RP, however, you must admit that you don't have the time to test all synthetics either. There really *could* be an issue with Mobil 1 and you wouldn't know because of the time it takes before something like this shows up (accumlulated carbon, ash, additives, whatever). Someone said that the flash point inside a combustion chamber is hot enough to burn oil, even a synthetic, but what if, at certain RPM and engine speeds, the duration of the burn cycle isn't long enough to adequately burn ALL of the better-clinging synthetic (as opposed to less-clingy conventional oil). After all we are dealing with a superior lubricating liquid. No one debates that point.
My point is we don't know what chemical changes occur to Mobil 1 in our combustion chambers. I doubt Mazda does either, but with Yamamato advising against Mobil 1 (in your own conversation with him, right?), it seems resonable to assume that Mazda HAS done some checking and didn't like what they found.
Did they throw the baby out with the bathwater? Perhaps. Is there an issue with the way that top of the line synthetics burn in a rotary? Perhaps. Will carbon form at high RPM as well as medium or low RPM? Certainly. Will it collect in the 2nd or 3rd intake port at high RPM? No. Will it cling to surfaces like the rotor faces, the spark plug holes or the oil metering hole (especially AFTER the hot engine is turned off and left to cool)? Yes, definitely. It has no place to go. Will that cause hot spots and misfiring (pre-detonation) the next time the car is running? Possibly. Will it plug the oil metering orfice eventually causing a loss of lubrication seal failure? Maybe. That is the danger that I see from synthetic and/or Mobil 1 use in the RENESIS.
I too err on the side of safety. Mazda says no synthetics. Why should we say we know better?
My supposition, and logic, could be wrong too, as we don't have many facts to go on in this case. Mobil 1 MAY be the most widely-used synthetic oil in the world *in conventional engines* but this might not be true about rotaries. Rotary owners *in general* have a higher degree of mechanical knowledge *AND* are more likely IMHO to drive their cars harder than the normal Joe on the street. With the Chevys the question was invariably "Hey, I drive my car/truck/ kind of hard... should I be using a synthetic oil?". My standard answer was always "Yes, certainly!" and not because the dealership made more money that way. Our profit was better on conventional oil in a drum.
Your supposition is also based on your own experience with RP, however, you must admit that you don't have the time to test all synthetics either. There really *could* be an issue with Mobil 1 and you wouldn't know because of the time it takes before something like this shows up (accumlulated carbon, ash, additives, whatever). Someone said that the flash point inside a combustion chamber is hot enough to burn oil, even a synthetic, but what if, at certain RPM and engine speeds, the duration of the burn cycle isn't long enough to adequately burn ALL of the better-clinging synthetic (as opposed to less-clingy conventional oil). After all we are dealing with a superior lubricating liquid. No one debates that point.
My point is we don't know what chemical changes occur to Mobil 1 in our combustion chambers. I doubt Mazda does either, but with Yamamato advising against Mobil 1 (in your own conversation with him, right?), it seems resonable to assume that Mazda HAS done some checking and didn't like what they found.
Did they throw the baby out with the bathwater? Perhaps. Is there an issue with the way that top of the line synthetics burn in a rotary? Perhaps. Will carbon form at high RPM as well as medium or low RPM? Certainly. Will it collect in the 2nd or 3rd intake port at high RPM? No. Will it cling to surfaces like the rotor faces, the spark plug holes or the oil metering hole (especially AFTER the hot engine is turned off and left to cool)? Yes, definitely. It has no place to go. Will that cause hot spots and misfiring (pre-detonation) the next time the car is running? Possibly. Will it plug the oil metering orfice eventually causing a loss of lubrication seal failure? Maybe. That is the danger that I see from synthetic and/or Mobil 1 use in the RENESIS.
I too err on the side of safety. Mazda says no synthetics. Why should we say we know better?
Originally Posted by rotarygod
Mobil 1 is the most highly used synthetic in the world. Many people use oils without knowing anything about them and everyone who drives uses oil. It is illogical to assume that only people whop drive their cars hard would choose Mobil 1 especially when many service stations now push synthetic and semi synthetic oils changes. I always assume on the side of safety and apparently Mazda agrees with this position as the lump all synthetics together into a blanket statement of nonuse rather than singling out certain ones. Remember, the people who aren't enthusiasts typically don't go about telling everyone what oil they use so it is downright wrong to assume that these users only drive their cars hard. This includes Chevy people. My logic is spot on correct.
09-13-2006, 03:00 PM
#284
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Originally Posted by rotarygod
The API didn't make a change a few years ago because too much was a problem. They did it for political reasons.
-sigh- race cars do not have catalytic converters and the API changes were made with 100k catalytic converter warranties in mind as too much zinc is not a good thing for them - but i'm sure you already know this...
i'm pretty sure i learned a thing or two working in an oil companies R&D lab for about a year...
09-13-2006, 04:14 PM
#285
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Originally Posted by PhotoMunkey
Heat, moisture, or combustion by-product contamination would be the main enemy of our rotarys' oil, and for that a regular high-quality oil serviced at regular intervals should suffice.
09-13-2006, 05:08 PM
#286
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Instead of pooling resources to have labs test oil, maybe we should do a group buy on one of these babies... Or maybe one of our medical members could provide a pill cam for testing!
http://www.wvclinic.com/news_events/...asp?news_id=51
Seriously. Pop one of these bad boys in a sparkplug hole, and slowly rotate the engine. Should give a useful info of the internal situation without a teardown. Or maybe fish it down the intake manifold to get a look at the side seals.
Not sure if it could transmit through the engine block tho... ?
http://www.wvclinic.com/news_events/...asp?news_id=51
Seriously. Pop one of these bad boys in a sparkplug hole, and slowly rotate the engine. Should give a useful info of the internal situation without a teardown. Or maybe fish it down the intake manifold to get a look at the side seals.
Not sure if it could transmit through the engine block tho... ?
09-13-2006, 08:59 PM
#289
Originally Posted by PhotoMunkey
Yes, but your supposition is that the engines suffered more of a carbon issue because they were driven easy, rather than from the Mobil 1 which Yamamato doesn't like. You are supposing that there's a correlation between driving easy and carbon in the intake ports. Mazda tech was supposing that there's a correlation between some synthetics, and carbon in the intake ports (esp. in light of the bulletin issued in Australia where legal issues might not preclude it). I believe that Mazda would have only issued such a bulletin after testing and disassembling an engine with synthetic in it, and not based on the tear-down of a customer's engine (although I allow that's what might have happened if the customer had oil change records backing up his/her issue).
My supposition, and logic, could be wrong too, as we don't have many facts to go on in this case. Mobil 1 MAY be the most widely-used synthetic oil in the world *in conventional engines* but this might not be true about rotaries. Rotary owners *in general* have a higher degree of mechanical knowledge *AND* are more likely IMHO to drive their cars harder than the normal Joe on the street. With the Chevys the question was invariably "Hey, I drive my car/truck/ kind of hard... should I be using a synthetic oil?". My standard answer was always "Yes, certainly!" and not because the dealership made more money that way. Our profit was better on conventional oil in a drum.
Your supposition is also based on your own experience with RP, however, you must admit that you don't have the time to test all synthetics either. There really *could* be an issue with Mobil 1 and you wouldn't know because of the time it takes before something like this shows up (accumlulated carbon, ash, additives, whatever). Someone said that the flash point inside a combustion chamber is hot enough to burn oil, even a synthetic, but what if, at certain RPM and engine speeds, the duration of the burn cycle isn't long enough to adequately burn ALL of the better-clinging synthetic (as opposed to less-clingy conventional oil). After all we are dealing with a superior lubricating liquid. No one debates that point.
My point is we don't know what chemical changes occur to Mobil 1 in our combustion chambers. I doubt Mazda does either, but with Yamamato advising against Mobil 1 (in your own conversation with him, right?), it seems resonable to assume that Mazda HAS done some checking and didn't like what they found.
Did they throw the baby out with the bathwater? Perhaps. Is there an issue with the way that top of the line synthetics burn in a rotary? Perhaps. Will carbon form at high RPM as well as medium or low RPM? Certainly. Will it collect in the 2nd or 3rd intake port at high RPM? No. Will it cling to surfaces like the rotor faces, the spark plug holes or the oil metering hole (especially AFTER the hot engine is turned off and left to cool)? Yes, definitely. It has no place to go. Will that cause hot spots and misfiring (pre-detonation) the next time the car is running? Possibly. Will it plug the oil metering orfice eventually causing a loss of lubrication seal failure? Maybe. That is the danger that I see from synthetic and/or Mobil 1 use in the RENESIS.
I too err on the side of safety. Mazda says no synthetics. Why should we say we know better?
My supposition, and logic, could be wrong too, as we don't have many facts to go on in this case. Mobil 1 MAY be the most widely-used synthetic oil in the world *in conventional engines* but this might not be true about rotaries. Rotary owners *in general* have a higher degree of mechanical knowledge *AND* are more likely IMHO to drive their cars harder than the normal Joe on the street. With the Chevys the question was invariably "Hey, I drive my car/truck/ kind of hard... should I be using a synthetic oil?". My standard answer was always "Yes, certainly!" and not because the dealership made more money that way. Our profit was better on conventional oil in a drum.
Your supposition is also based on your own experience with RP, however, you must admit that you don't have the time to test all synthetics either. There really *could* be an issue with Mobil 1 and you wouldn't know because of the time it takes before something like this shows up (accumlulated carbon, ash, additives, whatever). Someone said that the flash point inside a combustion chamber is hot enough to burn oil, even a synthetic, but what if, at certain RPM and engine speeds, the duration of the burn cycle isn't long enough to adequately burn ALL of the better-clinging synthetic (as opposed to less-clingy conventional oil). After all we are dealing with a superior lubricating liquid. No one debates that point.
My point is we don't know what chemical changes occur to Mobil 1 in our combustion chambers. I doubt Mazda does either, but with Yamamato advising against Mobil 1 (in your own conversation with him, right?), it seems resonable to assume that Mazda HAS done some checking and didn't like what they found.
Did they throw the baby out with the bathwater? Perhaps. Is there an issue with the way that top of the line synthetics burn in a rotary? Perhaps. Will carbon form at high RPM as well as medium or low RPM? Certainly. Will it collect in the 2nd or 3rd intake port at high RPM? No. Will it cling to surfaces like the rotor faces, the spark plug holes or the oil metering hole (especially AFTER the hot engine is turned off and left to cool)? Yes, definitely. It has no place to go. Will that cause hot spots and misfiring (pre-detonation) the next time the car is running? Possibly. Will it plug the oil metering orfice eventually causing a loss of lubrication seal failure? Maybe. That is the danger that I see from synthetic and/or Mobil 1 use in the RENESIS.
I too err on the side of safety. Mazda says no synthetics. Why should we say we know better?
but, hmm, well ..... We have *actual* experience with Synthetic Oil. and we have no problems with it. Thats our side of *prove* and we dont just *listen and follow* we have actual results to prove our points.
You can say *how you know that you're not going to have problems ? How ya know that Synthetic oil is better?*
Well, let me ask this,
*do you have any actual prove besides Mazda does not recommend ?*
That picture ? If RG was right, Carbon desposit happens if you baby your car, actually , lots of site out there, with real life experience, said that even Piston engine will get tons of Carbon deposit if the owner went *easy* with the engine.
So, what ya think ?
09-13-2006, 09:15 PM
#290
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Originally Posted by Nubo
Regarding heat, I've read that the flow characteristics of synthetic oil promote better heat transfer and lower oil temps. I don't have any proof. Maybe when I get my gauges I'll do some experimenting. But if it is the case I'd see that as a big advantage of synthetic for the rotary, which is viewed as heat-challenged. I'd like to see those oil coolers get all the help they can. Once things get too hot it doesn't matter what oil you've got because it isn't oil anymore.
What are the maximum values a conventional oil (5W-20) can tolerate before reaching, in the words of the wise Castrol announcer, "Thermal Viscosity Breakdown"? 300 degrees? 350 degrees? 400? What is it? Does anyone have a clue as to what the internal rotor temperatures are like during operation?
09-13-2006, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by nycgps
If RG was right, Carbon desposit happens if you baby your car, actually , lots of site out there, with real life experience, said that even Piston engine will get tons of Carbon deposit if the owner went *easy* with the engine.
You want proof, take a poll. Year, miles driven on synthetic oil without problems in a current-production RENESIS-powered car, region of the country (or world), miles driven PER OIL CHANGE, engine removed for recall (yes or no), etc. OldDragger has used pre-mix religiously in his RX-8 and it failed the recall. I forget whether he's used synthetic oil or not. How many others will have an engine issue in a recall-year RX-8, whether using synthetic or conventional oil? If a "superior lubricating" synthetic oil can't save the seals from an insufficient oiling problem (which isn't supposed to be a very severe amount of insufficient oiling) then why are we to assume that a synthetic is all that much better in the damn combustion chamber of a rotary?
All I'm saying is, Mazda has DEEMED that a conventional oil IS sufficient lubrication for a RENESIS, along with 5W-20 or 5w-30 oil. They have "suggested" that synthetics not be used. They're also the ONLY company which builds the rotary. They had BETTER know what's best for their own friggin' engine! Their engineers are PAID to know what's best and PAID to determine that on a daily basis.
Do YOU want to be the first to suffer a catastrophic seal failure at 80k miles because your synthetic oil coked up the OMP holes over time? Or caused carbon build-up on the apex seals, causing compression to drop over time? Perhaps it takes longer than 80k or perhaps it depends on your driving style, or the average temperatures of the region where you live. The point is: YOU. DON'T. KNOW. None of us do. That's why there are "manufacturer's recommendations"... Again, I will follow their recommendation. If the engine fails under warranty, it's their fault. I've got 5 years and 60k miles to find out.
09-13-2006, 11:41 PM
#292
What Mazda did was, a very *safe* move. Actually, more like a what a corporation would do. Understable. No matter how much they love their customers, hey its still a business. and first thing they gotta do is to protect themself.
People proofed that if you baby your car, Rotary or not, WILL CAUSE carbon build up. It just happen more often on Rotary due to design, its not a defect or anything, and its easy to fix, what most people failed to realized is that, they have to rev ALL engine up once in a while. Carbon deposit is not something that could be easily remove by the engine itself. It needs help, which happens to be the owner of the engine.
Another problem is that, RX8 is *so* affordable to the general public. and seriously speaking, Im dare to say that MORE THAN 1/2 of the RX8 owners does NOT know how to take care of their cars, they probably dont even know what excatly is a Rotary engine.
Last time when I was waiting for the dealership to be open so I can get my 8 back, there was another Blue Auto 8 there, some 30-40 yr old guy. We talked a little bit, he was in to get oil change ....... he got it for I think couple of months ? He said he loved it. can feel every bump on the road and stuff .... but he didnt know his A/C condenser and Oil cooler was naked, he didnt know he has to add oil once in a while. he didnt even know what an Rotary engine looks like ! *I just got the car because it looks cool* ....
one more thing, there are alot of oils out there that just *passed* the API specfication. and Let me ask you something, would you buy and use those ? Hey, it reach the requirement and it should be *sufficient* according to Mazda's logic. but are you willing to take the risk by getting some *whatever brand* of oil and put it into your engine ? I dont think so.
For me, I will get some *well known brand oil* for maybe a buck or 2 more just to be *sure* that its good enough.
Standards is here to control product quality, but standards are usually miniumn requirement. For example, Microsoft Windows XP Home edition, minimum requirement would be a 233 MHz Processor and 64 MB Ram. Sure it runs perfectly fine on such system. but I think I would rather kill myself if you want me to use a PC like that (Thank god I use Dual Ahtlon MP and 2 GB ram on XP pro)
I live in New york city, highest Temp I think it was about 110f ? Lowest was 20f ? Is that range *wide* enough ? Im not in to do the recall test yet but Im pretty sure that my engine survived the heat and the stress I gave her.
Im happy with my WAY ABOVE minimum standard synthetic oil. that would be it. I have no problems, Royal Purple users here and I just start my premix thing 2 tanks ago. Will see what happens down the road, only time would tell.
Now, no problems, so Synthetic is not evil(for me, at least)
People proofed that if you baby your car, Rotary or not, WILL CAUSE carbon build up. It just happen more often on Rotary due to design, its not a defect or anything, and its easy to fix, what most people failed to realized is that, they have to rev ALL engine up once in a while. Carbon deposit is not something that could be easily remove by the engine itself. It needs help, which happens to be the owner of the engine.
Another problem is that, RX8 is *so* affordable to the general public. and seriously speaking, Im dare to say that MORE THAN 1/2 of the RX8 owners does NOT know how to take care of their cars, they probably dont even know what excatly is a Rotary engine.
Last time when I was waiting for the dealership to be open so I can get my 8 back, there was another Blue Auto 8 there, some 30-40 yr old guy. We talked a little bit, he was in to get oil change ....... he got it for I think couple of months ? He said he loved it. can feel every bump on the road and stuff .... but he didnt know his A/C condenser and Oil cooler was naked, he didnt know he has to add oil once in a while. he didnt even know what an Rotary engine looks like ! *I just got the car because it looks cool* ....
one more thing, there are alot of oils out there that just *passed* the API specfication. and Let me ask you something, would you buy and use those ? Hey, it reach the requirement and it should be *sufficient* according to Mazda's logic. but are you willing to take the risk by getting some *whatever brand* of oil and put it into your engine ? I dont think so.
For me, I will get some *well known brand oil* for maybe a buck or 2 more just to be *sure* that its good enough.
Standards is here to control product quality, but standards are usually miniumn requirement. For example, Microsoft Windows XP Home edition, minimum requirement would be a 233 MHz Processor and 64 MB Ram. Sure it runs perfectly fine on such system. but I think I would rather kill myself if you want me to use a PC like that (Thank god I use Dual Ahtlon MP and 2 GB ram on XP pro)
I live in New york city, highest Temp I think it was about 110f ? Lowest was 20f ? Is that range *wide* enough ? Im not in to do the recall test yet but Im pretty sure that my engine survived the heat and the stress I gave her.
Im happy with my WAY ABOVE minimum standard synthetic oil. that would be it. I have no problems, Royal Purple users here and I just start my premix thing 2 tanks ago. Will see what happens down the road, only time would tell.
Now, no problems, so Synthetic is not evil(for me, at least)
Last edited by nycgps; 09-13-2006 at 11:46 PM.
09-14-2006, 02:46 AM
#293
Ayrton Senna Forever
"Do YOU want to be the first to suffer a catastrophic seal failure at 80k miles because your synthetic oil coked up the OMP holes over time? "
I hardly beleive this, knowing that synthetic oils clean better than conv., and the holes of the OMP nozzles are one of the place in the engine where the cleaner effects are really working. I think.
Other.. It just gets to my mind now, RG, did you meet with that Yamamoto-san, who is the father of the Mazda rotary? Kenichi Yamamoto? You are lucky!
I hardly beleive this, knowing that synthetic oils clean better than conv., and the holes of the OMP nozzles are one of the place in the engine where the cleaner effects are really working. I think.
Other.. It just gets to my mind now, RG, did you meet with that Yamamoto-san, who is the father of the Mazda rotary? Kenichi Yamamoto? You are lucky!
09-14-2006, 08:49 AM
#294
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^Not to answer for RG, but he has stated he met Mr. Yamamoto-san and spoke with him about oils. From what I remember of his conversation was Idemitsu synthetic (which he helped develop himself), and Royal Purple were what he liked. He did not like Mobile One.
09-14-2006, 09:25 AM
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Not to stir the pot, but I do use synthetics, just not in my RX-8. My wife's Jetta GLI gets a fresh batch every 4500 miles or so, and seems to run just slightly cooler with it than with a conventional oil. I do this because the turbocharger on the car is oil cooled, and tends to really cook the oil when it's parked after a long drive. In my last car, a V-8 Mustang, the engine didn't care what was in the sump. Ran the same on conventional oils as on synthetics.
As far as standards go, if you're not running Le Mans or Sebring or Willow Springs or Laguna Seca, then a "standard" oil IS sufficient lubrication.
As far as standards go, if you're not running Le Mans or Sebring or Willow Springs or Laguna Seca, then a "standard" oil IS sufficient lubrication.
09-14-2006, 11:33 AM
#297
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Originally Posted by Tirminyl
Standard oil is sufficient lubrication for a turbo motor. Your not racing at Le Mans, Sebring, or Willow Springs.
That said, the RX-8 has better overall oil cooling, better radiator cooling, and doesn't bake the oil inside a turbo bearing after I shut it off. At cruising speeds I'm turning 3800 rpm, or under half way to the redline. In the Jetta it's 4000-4100 with a redline of 7000, or well over half of the way to its maximum. Of course, the rotary is firing 3 times for every single rotation of each rotor, which travels at 1/3 of the measured dash RPM, so for 3800 rpm, in a two-rotor 13B RENESIS I'm getting 7,524 firing cycles. In the Jetta, a standard Otto cycle 4-stroke, 1.8 liter engine is generating 8000 firing pulses spread over 4 cylinders (2000 pulses per cylinder at 4000 rpm)! The difference is, my 1.8T gets one "cool" stroke to every "hot" stroke (from BDC to exhaust to intake to BDC again-). My RENESIS doesn't, and so generates its heat inside the block where oil and coolant have to carry it away. Hence the need for oil coolers and the nice big radiator. Are the average internal oil temps as bad or worse in the RX-8? Probably, since they did install two coolers in the 6MT cars. An oil cycling from hot to cool within its performance range is doing what it's supposed to do. Do I use a synthetic in the Jetta to protect the ONE SINGLE EXPENSIVE PART which cmarinates, bastes, and cooks itself in conventional oil AFTER the engine is shut off? You betcha!
09-14-2006, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by ayrton012
"[I]
Other.. It just gets to my mind now, RG, did you meet with that Yamamoto-san, who is the father of the Mazda rotary? Kenichi Yamamoto? You are lucky!
Other.. It just gets to my mind now, RG, did you meet with that Yamamoto-san, who is the father of the Mazda rotary? Kenichi Yamamoto? You are lucky!
