Rotarygod's rotary oil tech blog
09-15-2006, 12:51 PM
#326
I think people tend to think of synth oil as being something descended from **** experiments with the Fischer-Tropsch process.
Though, ultimately, that is where we will get oil/gasoline in the future, it just isn't practical when you have so much dino lunch laying around.
Though, ultimately, that is where we will get oil/gasoline in the future, it just isn't practical when you have so much dino lunch laying around.
09-15-2006, 01:04 PM
#327
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Originally Posted by ZoomZoomH
*reads rotarygod's ginormous post*
so, 'synthetic' should just mean 'synthetically made', not necessarily 'synthetic material' in the end product, that's what you're trying to say?
so, 'synthetic' should just mean 'synthetically made', not necessarily 'synthetic material' in the end product, that's what you're trying to say?
There are benefits of it though and it's more complicated that just assuming it's al the same stuff. I'll have to get into that later. I'm trying to slowly add to each post to create a large picture of how it all works and I only like to overwhelm with so much information at a time.
Last edited by rotarygod; 09-15-2006 at 01:06 PM.
09-15-2006, 02:50 PM
#328
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Originally Posted by rotarygod
I don't have an RX-8. I've had RX-7's for a long time. Brillo who uses Royal Purple and is more or less my test car, had his engine tested and passed with flying colors.
My car is an 06 with dino oil on it, but I should expect it to pass with flying colors too... does it matter that it only has 2400 total miles on it? Certainly. Could someone infer that it has many more miles if I don't state exactly the mileage it does have? Possibly.
09-15-2006, 03:03 PM
#329
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Brillo's is somewhere in the mid 30,000's if I remember correctly when it comes to mileage. You'll have to wait for him to chime in. Most of his mileage has been with RP. He drives it like he's supposed to. Let's it warm up before getting on it very hard, revs it up at least once every time he gets in it, etc...
I've used RP in 3 different RX-7's now over the past 7 or 8 years. Not one issue and I have old rubber seals!
I don't see why you should have any issues at all. I guarantee that most of the engine issues have been with conventional oils but the problem hasn't actually been oil formulation related anyways. It's related to driving habits combined with the amount of oil metering that they use (and have revised multiple times!) and they are just to dumb to figure it out.
I've used RP in 3 different RX-7's now over the past 7 or 8 years. Not one issue and I have old rubber seals!
I don't see why you should have any issues at all. I guarantee that most of the engine issues have been with conventional oils but the problem hasn't actually been oil formulation related anyways. It's related to driving habits combined with the amount of oil metering that they use (and have revised multiple times!) and they are just to dumb to figure it out.
09-15-2006, 04:30 PM
#330
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Brillo stopped by for a little while today. He has over 32,000 miles on his car and has been using RP since roughly 2000 miles. 30,000 miles of use is easily enough time to develop issues and he has none.
I just pulled apart a very hard driven engine last week from a 90 RX-7. The car was just beat on. It used conventional oil , Castrol I believe. Brillo looked at the rotors and noticed tha carbon buildup on them. Admittedly I've seen worse but it's there. That engine failed from a water seal break.
I just pulled apart a very hard driven engine last week from a 90 RX-7. The car was just beat on. It used conventional oil , Castrol I believe. Brillo looked at the rotors and noticed tha carbon buildup on them. Admittedly I've seen worse but it's there. That engine failed from a water seal break.
09-15-2006, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by rotarygod
Now to move on to the Group IV and V synthetic oils. Their base stocks are different. Sort of.
...yada yada yada...
Group V oils may use different substances as a base stock but still arive towards the same end result which is something natural through an unnatural process.
Although it would probably rock in a rotary engine since it has superior wear properties and gasoline is not soluable in it so all the gas that collects in your oil and thins it out would actually burn out of the oil... but thats a whole different story that really doesn't matter since the only examples that exist are primarily for worm drive gearbox applications (where wear is a killer) and in the food industry (because it doesn't need wear additives so its non toxic)
09-15-2006, 06:38 PM
#333
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Originally Posted by rotarygod
Here's another long and technical response for the sake of clarification on some things...
Just to help throw another wrench in the "what is dino oil" description, I feel that saying that conventional comes from decomposing dinosaurs, plants, etc and that synthetics aren't is not entirely accurate. Does anyone remember balancing formulas in chemistry class in school? You'd take one molecule chain and break it down into 2 or more others and just have to make sure that all the elements were accounted for. It wasn't very hard. The end result though is that you get multiple compounds that are obviously different from the original. Combining 2 or more elements into one chain was just as easy.
Now lets apply that to oil. Conventional oil base stocks are literally distilled from base crude oil. There is slightly more to it than that. Through the same process but at different temperatures we also get gasoline, kerosene, diesel fuel, etc... The way these are separated is due to different boiling points for each. By carefully heating up the crude oil and then sending it up a distillation tower, we can monitor temperature and collect at whatever level we want to based on temperature. By doing this we can get any of the compounds. The problem with this is that even though each compound has a different boiling temperature and consequently max temperature of evaporation, each compound is still evaporating and being collected into other levels in small amounts as well. Even though water boils at 212* at sea level and has it's max evaporation at that point, water still evaporates at room temperature too. This means that if we were trying to collect a prodcut we distilled and aimed at 180*, we'd also get a small amount of water as well as the water is still evaporating. Hopefully this makes sense.
When crude is distilled into it's different compounds, there is a small amount of different compounds that get collected with the final product at that temperature. It pretty much only goes one way though. A compound that boils at 200* will still collect some materials from anything that boils above that temperature but typically not the other way around. Compounds higher up lets say with boiling points of 400 degrees are not going to collect compounds that boil at 200 degrees. The higher up the fractioning tower you go, the cooler it gets. Different compounds collect at outlets along the way up.
Any time we get something in the final product that we don't want, we call it an impurity. In oils we may have compounds that we refer to as aromatics as well as some other things that get into the base oil. How well these aromatics are filtered out determines what grade of base stock we have in motor oil. Group I oils have the most contaminants. Up to 10% of the total base stock! Group II oils have a little more distillation (refining) done to bring these contaminants down somewhat. Up to this point we all still agree that we have conventional "dino" oil.
A Group III oil will take the refining process one step farther through a process called hydrocracking. This is whee we go back to the chemistry equation balancing act from above. Through the introduction of hydrogen (hence the "hydro" in hydrocracking)into the mix under high temperatures and pressures, the hydrogen molecules add themselves to the aromatics (contaminants) to completely change their molecular structure into somethig else. The end result is naphtenes and alkines. A chain of napthenes is called paraffins but through the hydrocracking process the aromatics are gone. This is a good thing. Through a simple chemistry formula balancing act in the real world we have taken something we didn't want and rearranged it with some outside help into something we did want. This process is not naturally occurring and therefore "synthetic". This is what makes a synthetic what it is. It may still be from a "dino" based oil. The end product is still something natural. It was the way we got it that wasn't.
Now to move on to the Group IV and V synthetic oils. Their base stocks are different. Sort of. Group IV base stocks are called Poly Alpha Olefins. Remember how I mentioned alkenes above? An Alpha Olefin is an alkene where the carbon-carbon double bond is between the #1 and #2 carbons in the molecule. Again, it's just a process to create this but the original product was all natural! A poly-alpha-olefin takes this one step farther and is nothing mroe than a polymer made by polymerizing an alpha olefin. This is a Group IV base stock. It was a base stock that made an natural end product through unnatural processes. Group V oils may use different substances as a base stock but still arive towards the same end result which is something natural through an unnatural process.
Now just to throw a little bit of conspiracy into things let get into a human equivalent of the synthetic oil. Lets say a woman wants to have a baby but for some reason the husband's troops are awol. They decide to use artifical insemination. A doctor goes in and fertilizes the egg in a way that is not natural (or fun!). 9 months later they have a baby. Do we consider the baby a synthetic human? Nope. We consider the conception artifical but we don't call the final product artifical. Synthetic oils are a process but the end result is all natural. Their advantages are that we can go in and get rid of or convert what we don't want into something better. In regards to the baby comparison just think of it as gene manipulation to create a smarter human. The bad sides of synthetics have been during the formulation stages early on where some compounds were allowed to exist that didn't do rubber parts any good. This was easily taken care of. The carbon buildup issues have nothing to do with the base stock but rather with what is added to it by each oil manufacturer. This is the additive package.
I know it was long but is anyone still confused as to what the term "synthetic" really applies to? Ther term "dino" oil is very misleading as is the term "synthetic". I don't think any oils should be called synthetic. It's just not accurate.
Just to help throw another wrench in the "what is dino oil" description, I feel that saying that conventional comes from decomposing dinosaurs, plants, etc and that synthetics aren't is not entirely accurate. Does anyone remember balancing formulas in chemistry class in school? You'd take one molecule chain and break it down into 2 or more others and just have to make sure that all the elements were accounted for. It wasn't very hard. The end result though is that you get multiple compounds that are obviously different from the original. Combining 2 or more elements into one chain was just as easy.
Now lets apply that to oil. Conventional oil base stocks are literally distilled from base crude oil. There is slightly more to it than that. Through the same process but at different temperatures we also get gasoline, kerosene, diesel fuel, etc... The way these are separated is due to different boiling points for each. By carefully heating up the crude oil and then sending it up a distillation tower, we can monitor temperature and collect at whatever level we want to based on temperature. By doing this we can get any of the compounds. The problem with this is that even though each compound has a different boiling temperature and consequently max temperature of evaporation, each compound is still evaporating and being collected into other levels in small amounts as well. Even though water boils at 212* at sea level and has it's max evaporation at that point, water still evaporates at room temperature too. This means that if we were trying to collect a prodcut we distilled and aimed at 180*, we'd also get a small amount of water as well as the water is still evaporating. Hopefully this makes sense.
When crude is distilled into it's different compounds, there is a small amount of different compounds that get collected with the final product at that temperature. It pretty much only goes one way though. A compound that boils at 200* will still collect some materials from anything that boils above that temperature but typically not the other way around. Compounds higher up lets say with boiling points of 400 degrees are not going to collect compounds that boil at 200 degrees. The higher up the fractioning tower you go, the cooler it gets. Different compounds collect at outlets along the way up.
Any time we get something in the final product that we don't want, we call it an impurity. In oils we may have compounds that we refer to as aromatics as well as some other things that get into the base oil. How well these aromatics are filtered out determines what grade of base stock we have in motor oil. Group I oils have the most contaminants. Up to 10% of the total base stock! Group II oils have a little more distillation (refining) done to bring these contaminants down somewhat. Up to this point we all still agree that we have conventional "dino" oil.
A Group III oil will take the refining process one step farther through a process called hydrocracking. This is whee we go back to the chemistry equation balancing act from above. Through the introduction of hydrogen (hence the "hydro" in hydrocracking)into the mix under high temperatures and pressures, the hydrogen molecules add themselves to the aromatics (contaminants) to completely change their molecular structure into somethig else. The end result is naphtenes and alkines. A chain of napthenes is called paraffins but through the hydrocracking process the aromatics are gone. This is a good thing. Through a simple chemistry formula balancing act in the real world we have taken something we didn't want and rearranged it with some outside help into something we did want. This process is not naturally occurring and therefore "synthetic". This is what makes a synthetic what it is. It may still be from a "dino" based oil. The end product is still something natural. It was the way we got it that wasn't.
Now to move on to the Group IV and V synthetic oils. Their base stocks are different. Sort of. Group IV base stocks are called Poly Alpha Olefins. Remember how I mentioned alkenes above? An Alpha Olefin is an alkene where the carbon-carbon double bond is between the #1 and #2 carbons in the molecule. Again, it's just a process to create this but the original product was all natural! A poly-alpha-olefin takes this one step farther and is nothing mroe than a polymer made by polymerizing an alpha olefin. This is a Group IV base stock. It was a base stock that made an natural end product through unnatural processes. Group V oils may use different substances as a base stock but still arive towards the same end result which is something natural through an unnatural process.
Now just to throw a little bit of conspiracy into things let get into a human equivalent of the synthetic oil. Lets say a woman wants to have a baby but for some reason the husband's troops are awol. They decide to use artifical insemination. A doctor goes in and fertilizes the egg in a way that is not natural (or fun!). 9 months later they have a baby. Do we consider the baby a synthetic human? Nope. We consider the conception artifical but we don't call the final product artifical. Synthetic oils are a process but the end result is all natural. Their advantages are that we can go in and get rid of or convert what we don't want into something better. In regards to the baby comparison just think of it as gene manipulation to create a smarter human. The bad sides of synthetics have been during the formulation stages early on where some compounds were allowed to exist that didn't do rubber parts any good. This was easily taken care of. The carbon buildup issues have nothing to do with the base stock but rather with what is added to it by each oil manufacturer. This is the additive package.
I know it was long but is anyone still confused as to what the term "synthetic" really applies to? Ther term "dino" oil is very misleading as is the term "synthetic". I don't think any oils should be called synthetic. It's just not accurate.
09-15-2006, 07:17 PM
#335
IT IS A MARKETING GIMMIC USED BY RP TO DESCRIBE THEIR ADDITIVE PACKAGE!
http://www.royalpurple.com/techa/faqsa.html
Now I have a headache.
http://www.royalpurple.com/techa/faqsa.html
Now I have a headache.
Last edited by MazdaManiac; 09-15-2006 at 07:21 PM.
Well i did get someones attention. I was having Slick 50 flashbacks.
Junk.....
09-15-2006, 11:16 PM
#338
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Originally Posted by r0tor
Not really... a PAG oil is a group V oil that does not resemble a PAO or anything else natutally occuring since it is glycol based and is completely incompatible with a PAO or conventional oil.
Although it would probably rock in a rotary engine since it has superior wear properties and gasoline is not soluable in it so all the gas that collects in your oil and thins it out would actually burn out of the oil... but thats a whole different story that really doesn't matter since the only examples that exist are primarily for worm drive gearbox applications (where wear is a killer) and in the food industry (because it doesn't need wear additives so its non toxic)
Although it would probably rock in a rotary engine since it has superior wear properties and gasoline is not soluable in it so all the gas that collects in your oil and thins it out would actually burn out of the oil... but thats a whole different story that really doesn't matter since the only examples that exist are primarily for worm drive gearbox applications (where wear is a killer) and in the food industry (because it doesn't need wear additives so its non toxic)
09-15-2006, 11:17 PM
#339
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Originally Posted by MazdaManiac
IT IS A MARKETING GIMMIC USED BY RP TO DESCRIBE THEIR ADDITIVE PACKAGE!
http://www.royalpurple.com/techa/faqsa.html
Now I have a headache.
http://www.royalpurple.com/techa/faqsa.html
Now I have a headache.
09-16-2006, 01:53 AM
#341
Originally Posted by MazdaManiac
Back and to the right, back and to the right.
BTW - what engine oil are you running now and what pre-mix have you settled on (and how much)?
BTW - what engine oil are you running now and what pre-mix have you settled on (and how much)?
the odd note my mop was replaced at 30k miles for a cel. the tech and i did a bunch of test on coasting down no throttle. and lots of phone calls to mna by the tech...
i started having the power loss problem at about 35 k miles...
so it is not a syn thing...
as to pre mix.... the type i i use is what i can find. i just look for syn 2 stroke oil.... the last thing i got was castol 2 outboard oil... i have it down to 3oz per tank.... fixes the problem... i almost think sometimes that i might not let them repace the motor... and continue to premix...
i think i might dyno the motor before i decide...
odd notes: when i went to syn oil in motor. smoot went way down... when i premixed with syn 2 stroke oil to fix a problem while using syn oil in motor.... smoot went down more... the tips stay clean for a long long time...
my guess is the better sealing leads to more complete combustion... and it is just a guess...
beers
Last edited by swoope; 09-16-2006 at 01:59 AM.
09-16-2006, 03:53 AM
#342
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Originally Posted by swoope
odd notes: when i went to syn oil in motor. smoot went way down... when i premixed with syn 2 stroke oil to fix a problem while using syn oil in motor.... smoot went down more... the tips stay clean for a long long time...
my guess is the better sealing leads to more complete combustion... and it is just a guess...
beers
my guess is the better sealing leads to more complete combustion... and it is just a guess...
beers
09-16-2006, 04:55 AM
#343
Originally Posted by Nubo
My experience as well, except in the opposite direction. I'd been running synthetic since 1,000 miles but put a change of Castrol GTX in a couple weeks ago. And I am noticing a LOT more smoot.
same thing. dino oil = more smoot..
beers
09-16-2006, 12:49 PM
#344
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The reason why someone might see more soot from a synthetic that they used as opposed to the conventional they switched back to has everything to do with the formulation. It is an issue with who made it and what they added to it and hence why Mazda has this TSB. The problem isn't inherent to synthetics and for the most part goes the other way.
09-17-2006, 10:59 AM
#345
Go Texas Longhorns!
I have 32,857mi on my car and have been using RP for about 30,000 mi with no issues. I also have RP tranny fluids, RP two stroke for premixing, and purple ice in the coolant.
I have never had any issues with power loss, my mileage is above average 16-18/25-26 and I rag on the car occationally.
I premix a bit now just to be on the safe side and to aid in compression. I never track the car or do any R&D on power adding products without it either.
I have never had any issues with power loss, my mileage is above average 16-18/25-26 and I rag on the car occationally.
I premix a bit now just to be on the safe side and to aid in compression. I never track the car or do any R&D on power adding products without it either.
09-18-2006, 03:18 AM
#346
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Originally Posted by rotarygod
Here's MY easy guide for using synthetics and the ones I know to be safe:
Royal Purple: A Group IV oil. I and many others have used it for years. Racing Beat also recommends it and has tested it.
Amsoil: A Group V oil. Again it has a history of successful rotary use. Racing Beat used to recommend this oil until they discovered Royal Purple!
Redline: A Group V oil. Many rotary owners have used Redline products for years with great results. Proven track record in rotaries.
Idemitsu: A Group IV oil. Yamamoto-san himself from Mazda assisted in the formulation of this oil for the 1991 LeMans winning 787B 4 rotor race car. Designed to be used in rotaries. Proven track record in rotaries.
Valvoline: A Group III oil. While it is still debated whether or not a Group III oil is a true synthetic or not, it can legally be called one. It is the same paraffin base stock as Group I and II conventional oils but has undergone a process called hydrocracking to improve it. More on this can be found online. Whether or not you consider it a true synthetic or not, it should still be noted that this is a better more refined oil than the average conventional which still makes it a great oil. Valvoline synthetic was the oil run by Downing in their Kudzu race cars. Proven in rotaries.
That's all of them that I would use. Any others I would only at the user's risk as I don't know the history of their success in the rotary engine. Some others may be fine to use while some may not. I know which ones I like and what I use and have no desire to test or learn any further. I'll let someone else test the rest.
Royal Purple: A Group IV oil. I and many others have used it for years. Racing Beat also recommends it and has tested it.
Amsoil: A Group V oil. Again it has a history of successful rotary use. Racing Beat used to recommend this oil until they discovered Royal Purple!
Redline: A Group V oil. Many rotary owners have used Redline products for years with great results. Proven track record in rotaries.
Idemitsu: A Group IV oil. Yamamoto-san himself from Mazda assisted in the formulation of this oil for the 1991 LeMans winning 787B 4 rotor race car. Designed to be used in rotaries. Proven track record in rotaries.
Valvoline: A Group III oil. While it is still debated whether or not a Group III oil is a true synthetic or not, it can legally be called one. It is the same paraffin base stock as Group I and II conventional oils but has undergone a process called hydrocracking to improve it. More on this can be found online. Whether or not you consider it a true synthetic or not, it should still be noted that this is a better more refined oil than the average conventional which still makes it a great oil. Valvoline synthetic was the oil run by Downing in their Kudzu race cars. Proven in rotaries.
That's all of them that I would use. Any others I would only at the user's risk as I don't know the history of their success in the rotary engine. Some others may be fine to use while some may not. I know which ones I like and what I use and have no desire to test or learn any further. I'll let someone else test the rest.
Idemitsu "Racing" oil is safe for daily driven RX-8 that will go 3K miles before an oil change? Would the 10w-30 be safe?
No Castrol on the list? I thought Ive read before you were a Castrol fan? Or is it just that you dont have any Castrol experiences in a rotary?
Is Castrol Syntec a Group III?
09-18-2006, 10:32 AM
#347
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I personally won't use Idemitsu because I believe that I have an equally good oil that is cheaper. 10W30 is no different than 5W30 when wrmed up. The Idemitsu will go 3000 miles just fine. Most racing oils will. Heck it went over 3000 miles in 24 hours under race conditions at LeMans and the engine looked beautiful afterwards. That oil was designed to go a long way under hard use. RP racing oil for example is still a full detergent oil os it is safe for street use. It's just a little expensive. It just has too much in the way of certain friction reducing additives to pass certification. As with too little, too much is also grounds not to pass a test. Some racing oils do not have the full amount of detergent content in them and wouldn't do so well on the street for a long time. Unfortunately I haven't seen anyone state how much content their oils have. I only know RP racing is a full detergent oil because I asked them.
I like Castrol conventional oils. Both them and Havoline are my favorite conventionals and I used both before switchig over to RP. Actually I used Havoline Synthetic first. Then I switched to RP. Until I hear about Castrol deposit issues or lack of them, I won't say to use their synthetics in a rotary engine. It might be perfectly fine and probably is but just like Mazda, play it safe until you are sure.
I like Castrol conventional oils. Both them and Havoline are my favorite conventionals and I used both before switchig over to RP. Actually I used Havoline Synthetic first. Then I switched to RP. Until I hear about Castrol deposit issues or lack of them, I won't say to use their synthetics in a rotary engine. It might be perfectly fine and probably is but just like Mazda, play it safe until you are sure.
Last edited by rotarygod; 09-18-2006 at 10:53 AM.
09-18-2006, 10:53 AM
#348
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Originally Posted by rotarygod
I like Castrol conventional oils. Both them and Havoline are my favorite conventionals and I used both before switchig over to RP. Until I hear about Castrol deposit issues or lack of them, I won't say to use their synthetics in a rotary engine. It might be perfectly fine and probably is but just like Mazda, play it safe until you are sure.
I believe that hydrocracking is a process that breaks and removes the weaker carbon chains in the oil, leaving only the strongest chains remaining after purification. Hence the debate over whether it's a true synthetic or not. Legally, since it undergoes processing which alters the structure of some of the molecules, it can be termed "synthetic". Simply purifying the oil does not constitute a synthetic modification, but being able to add a "synthetic" tag to the oil is probably the main incentive for the hydrocracking/purification process. I also believe it may be the least-expensive method of synthetic oil production, but I could be wrong there.
I tend to favor Castrol Syntec in my Jetta GLI 1.8T, and try regular Castrol in my RX-8 soon.
09-18-2006, 10:59 AM
#349
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Royal Purple Rotary Engine FAQ
Royal Purple has an interesteing rotary engine FAQ section on their web site.
Apologies if this is a re-post.
http://www.royalpurple.com/techa/faqsa.html#tc1
Rotary Engines
Can Royal Purple Motor Oil be used in a rotary engine?
Yes. A rotary engine is a modified four cycle engine that recommends the use of an API licensed motor oil for street applications.
More information and FAQs on lubrication of Rotary Engines:
In a rotary engine, the oil lubricates the eccentric shaft bearings, thrust needle bearings and rotor bearings similar to a crank and rod bearing of a piston engine as well as being injected into the combustion chambers to lubricate the apex seals, corner seals, and side seals helping to create the sealing mechanism doing the equivalent job of the piston rings.
Royal Purple provides outstanding protection for the e-shaft, rotor bearings, thrust bearings and is suitable for the oil injection system as it has proven to run cleaner than other oils and is an excellent choice for rotary apex seals, corner seals, and side seals.
Mazda makes a statement in the Owner’s Manual not to use synthetic oils in a rotary engine, why do you say that it is OK?
Royal Purple has performed seal compatibility testing on the components used in a rotary with excellent results, including older rotary engine seals dating back to the Cosmo. Royal Purple’s Technical Services Manager David Canitz has been an owner and racer of rotary engine cars and has used synthetic motor oils in rotaries since 1985 with excellent results. He has been trying to find an answer to this Mazda statement for the last 18 years.
In the early development of synthetic oils decades ago, there were purportedly some seal compatibility issues. Today’s synthetic oils do not have the compatibility issues of the old oils. There is no substantiated evidence of seal compatibility issues with Royal Purple.
Here are some facts:
The Mazda Factory racing departments recommend and use ‘synthetic’ oils including the winning 1991 Leman’s 20-G 4 rotor Mazda 787B.
MazdaComp USA printed manual (now Mazdaspeed) recommends the use of synthetic oils for racing conditions.
Royal Purple Motor Oils have been used in rotary engines (both race and street) for ten plus years with excellent results.
Royal Purple Motor Oil is compatible with the bearing material, sealing elastomers, and combustion seals used in a rotary engine.
I heard that synthetic oil doesn't burn like mineral based oils and will coat the inside of the engine with deposits.
If this was a problem with synthetic motor oils in general, then all internal combustion engines using a ‘synthetic’ would experience increased deposits on internal surfaces. The opposite is actually the norm.
Conventional four cycle motor oils will typically leave deposits of carbon and ash when injected into the rotary apex seal, corner seal, and side seal areas. Royal Purple’s motor oil actually burns cleaner due to the synthetic base stock being free of contamination and many of the additives being ‘ashless’. This may not be true for all synthetics but Royal Purple has been proven to work extremely well in rotary engines.
Royal Purple’s formulation of synthetic hydrocarbon motor oil does burn at the nominal combustion temperatures experienced in both street and racing applications, whether normally aspirated, turbocharged, or supercharged. (500 – 1700° F idle to race rpms typical combustion temps)
Will the synthetic oil effect the oil seals?
No. Royal Purple’s Motor Oil is fully compatible with the elastomers found in rotary engines as well as more conventional piston engines. The oil seals, housing seals and other elastomers used in rotary engines typically consist of Buna N, Nitriles, Neoprene, or Viton materials which are also commonly found in piston engine cars.
I hear that synthetic is ‘thinner or lighter’ oil, is there a greater possibility that the oil will leak between the seals?
No. If an engine’s sealing surfaces are in good condition, synthetic oil should not cause any leakage. However, if an engine has marginal seals, there is a 50/50 chance the seals will leak less or more. A synthetic motor oil is going to have similar viscosity to that of a conventional motor oil – except at extreme temperatures. Due to a flatter viscosity curve, at low temperatures it will not thicken as much (easier winter cranking) and it does not thin out as quickly at higher operating temperatures (better oil film at higher rpm).
Should I go longer or shorter between oil changes?
Royal Purple recommends that the maximum oil drain / filter change interval listed in the Owner’s Manual be followed while under warranty (new RX8). For FA, FB, FC, FC Turbos, and FD rotaries, extending drain intervals from two to five fold is possible if desired. Since the rotary engine injects oil through the use of a metered oil pump, either adding oil into the carb base plate air / fuel mixture or directly injecting oil into the rotor housing, rotary engines will consume oil of one quart per 1000 – 3000 miles. It is important to maintain the proper crankcase oil level in your rotary engine if you decide to extend oil drain intervals.
If I pre-mix my fuel for the rotary engine, do I use the same ratio as with mineral based oils? Does it burn at the same rate?
In an ideal world, the rotary engine metered oil pump should inject an ashless oil designed to burn in the combustion chamber and use a four cycle oil in the crankcase for the eccentric shaft, rotor bearings, and thrust bearings. For the street, Mazda simplified the OE system to use just one oil, that being a typical four cycle oil for both the e-shaft as well as the combustion chamber. Royal Purple recommends using our standard TCW III 2 Cycle Oil if the metered oil pump is still enabled. The two cycle oil being added to the fuel tank is in addition to what Mazda designed to inject and acts as a supplement or insurance. Depending on which engine, the level of modifications (street port, Bridgeport, peripheral port, nitrous, turbocharged) and application, the typical mix ratio could vary from 200:1 to 800:1.
For a pure racing application where the metered oil pump has been disabled or removed, again based on the actual engine and modification level, the ratio could vary from 150:1 to 600:1. For this application, we recommend our Racing 2 Cycle TCW III product or the standard 2 Cycle TCW III can also be used.
A stock FD twin turbo 13B with the MOP oil injection system can typically use about one quart per 1500 miles under hard street driving. If this vehicle is getting 15 mpg, the gasoline to oil ratio is 400:1. If the oil consumption on this vehicle reduces to 1 quart per 2500 miles and fuel efficiency increases to 20 mpg, the gasoline to oil ratio increases to 600:1. The stock metering oil pump is a great system as it varies with throttle position (load on the engine). Pre-mixing has to be calculated for the ‘worst case’ that will be seen by the engine for that fuel load. Under racing conditions, that’s wide open throttle at racing rpms. This means that at idle, the ratio may be slightly fat (rich).
Apologies if this is a re-post.
http://www.royalpurple.com/techa/faqsa.html#tc1
Rotary Engines
Can Royal Purple Motor Oil be used in a rotary engine?
Yes. A rotary engine is a modified four cycle engine that recommends the use of an API licensed motor oil for street applications.
More information and FAQs on lubrication of Rotary Engines:
In a rotary engine, the oil lubricates the eccentric shaft bearings, thrust needle bearings and rotor bearings similar to a crank and rod bearing of a piston engine as well as being injected into the combustion chambers to lubricate the apex seals, corner seals, and side seals helping to create the sealing mechanism doing the equivalent job of the piston rings.
Royal Purple provides outstanding protection for the e-shaft, rotor bearings, thrust bearings and is suitable for the oil injection system as it has proven to run cleaner than other oils and is an excellent choice for rotary apex seals, corner seals, and side seals.
Mazda makes a statement in the Owner’s Manual not to use synthetic oils in a rotary engine, why do you say that it is OK?
Royal Purple has performed seal compatibility testing on the components used in a rotary with excellent results, including older rotary engine seals dating back to the Cosmo. Royal Purple’s Technical Services Manager David Canitz has been an owner and racer of rotary engine cars and has used synthetic motor oils in rotaries since 1985 with excellent results. He has been trying to find an answer to this Mazda statement for the last 18 years.
In the early development of synthetic oils decades ago, there were purportedly some seal compatibility issues. Today’s synthetic oils do not have the compatibility issues of the old oils. There is no substantiated evidence of seal compatibility issues with Royal Purple.
Here are some facts:
The Mazda Factory racing departments recommend and use ‘synthetic’ oils including the winning 1991 Leman’s 20-G 4 rotor Mazda 787B.MazdaComp USA printed manual (now Mazdaspeed) recommends the use of synthetic oils for racing conditions.Royal Purple Motor Oils have been used in rotary engines (both race and street) for ten plus years with excellent results.Royal Purple Motor Oil is compatible with the bearing material, sealing elastomers, and combustion seals used in a rotary engine.I heard that synthetic oil doesn't burn like mineral based oils and will coat the inside of the engine with deposits.
If this was a problem with synthetic motor oils in general, then all internal combustion engines using a ‘synthetic’ would experience increased deposits on internal surfaces. The opposite is actually the norm.
Conventional four cycle motor oils will typically leave deposits of carbon and ash when injected into the rotary apex seal, corner seal, and side seal areas. Royal Purple’s motor oil actually burns cleaner due to the synthetic base stock being free of contamination and many of the additives being ‘ashless’. This may not be true for all synthetics but Royal Purple has been proven to work extremely well in rotary engines.
Royal Purple’s formulation of synthetic hydrocarbon motor oil does burn at the nominal combustion temperatures experienced in both street and racing applications, whether normally aspirated, turbocharged, or supercharged. (500 – 1700° F idle to race rpms typical combustion temps)
Will the synthetic oil effect the oil seals?
No. Royal Purple’s Motor Oil is fully compatible with the elastomers found in rotary engines as well as more conventional piston engines. The oil seals, housing seals and other elastomers used in rotary engines typically consist of Buna N, Nitriles, Neoprene, or Viton materials which are also commonly found in piston engine cars.
I hear that synthetic is ‘thinner or lighter’ oil, is there a greater possibility that the oil will leak between the seals?
No. If an engine’s sealing surfaces are in good condition, synthetic oil should not cause any leakage. However, if an engine has marginal seals, there is a 50/50 chance the seals will leak less or more. A synthetic motor oil is going to have similar viscosity to that of a conventional motor oil – except at extreme temperatures. Due to a flatter viscosity curve, at low temperatures it will not thicken as much (easier winter cranking) and it does not thin out as quickly at higher operating temperatures (better oil film at higher rpm).
Should I go longer or shorter between oil changes?
Royal Purple recommends that the maximum oil drain / filter change interval listed in the Owner’s Manual be followed while under warranty (new RX8). For FA, FB, FC, FC Turbos, and FD rotaries, extending drain intervals from two to five fold is possible if desired. Since the rotary engine injects oil through the use of a metered oil pump, either adding oil into the carb base plate air / fuel mixture or directly injecting oil into the rotor housing, rotary engines will consume oil of one quart per 1000 – 3000 miles. It is important to maintain the proper crankcase oil level in your rotary engine if you decide to extend oil drain intervals.
If I pre-mix my fuel for the rotary engine, do I use the same ratio as with mineral based oils? Does it burn at the same rate?
In an ideal world, the rotary engine metered oil pump should inject an ashless oil designed to burn in the combustion chamber and use a four cycle oil in the crankcase for the eccentric shaft, rotor bearings, and thrust bearings. For the street, Mazda simplified the OE system to use just one oil, that being a typical four cycle oil for both the e-shaft as well as the combustion chamber. Royal Purple recommends using our standard TCW III 2 Cycle Oil if the metered oil pump is still enabled. The two cycle oil being added to the fuel tank is in addition to what Mazda designed to inject and acts as a supplement or insurance. Depending on which engine, the level of modifications (street port, Bridgeport, peripheral port, nitrous, turbocharged) and application, the typical mix ratio could vary from 200:1 to 800:1.
For a pure racing application where the metered oil pump has been disabled or removed, again based on the actual engine and modification level, the ratio could vary from 150:1 to 600:1. For this application, we recommend our Racing 2 Cycle TCW III product or the standard 2 Cycle TCW III can also be used.
A stock FD twin turbo 13B with the MOP oil injection system can typically use about one quart per 1500 miles under hard street driving. If this vehicle is getting 15 mpg, the gasoline to oil ratio is 400:1. If the oil consumption on this vehicle reduces to 1 quart per 2500 miles and fuel efficiency increases to 20 mpg, the gasoline to oil ratio increases to 600:1. The stock metering oil pump is a great system as it varies with throttle position (load on the engine). Pre-mixing has to be calculated for the ‘worst case’ that will be seen by the engine for that fuel load. Under racing conditions, that’s wide open throttle at racing rpms. This means that at idle, the ratio may be slightly fat (rich).
09-18-2006, 11:17 AM
#350
Registered
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by PhotoMunkey
Castrol's Syntec is supposed to be a Group III "hydrocracked" synthetic. This would place it in the same basic category as the Valvoline synthetic, before the additive package anyway.
I believe that hydrocracking is a process that breaks and removes the weaker carbon chains in the oil, leaving only the strongest chains remaining after purification. Hence the debate over whether it's a true synthetic or not. Legally, since it undergoes processing which alters the structure of some of the molecules, it can be termed "synthetic". Simply purifying the oil does not constitute a synthetic modification, but being able to add a "synthetic" tag to the oil is probably the main incentive for the hydrocracking/purification process. I also believe it may be the least-expensive method of synthetic oil production, but I could be wrong there.
I tend to favor Castrol Syntec in my Jetta GLI 1.8T, and try regular Castrol in my RX-8 soon.
I believe that hydrocracking is a process that breaks and removes the weaker carbon chains in the oil, leaving only the strongest chains remaining after purification. Hence the debate over whether it's a true synthetic or not. Legally, since it undergoes processing which alters the structure of some of the molecules, it can be termed "synthetic". Simply purifying the oil does not constitute a synthetic modification, but being able to add a "synthetic" tag to the oil is probably the main incentive for the hydrocracking/purification process. I also believe it may be the least-expensive method of synthetic oil production, but I could be wrong there.
I tend to favor Castrol Syntec in my Jetta GLI 1.8T, and try regular Castrol in my RX-8 soon.
Hydrocracking is a process through which hydrogen is added to the base stock under high temperatures and pressures. Through this process, the hydrogen molecules combine with many of the "aromatics" to form napthenes and alkenes. Aromatics are not compounds which we consider useful. They are contaminants. Some "contaminants" such as sulfur have lubricating properties but also weaken the overall strength of the oil so only part of it is useful. Napthenes and Alkenes can form chains which we call paraffins. There is far more to it than this and I am simplifying things greatly. I'm sure someone very picky who is against synthetic oils in rotaries will now come on here and nit pick as a result but hopefully you see where I am going with this. Hydrocracking does make the oil "synthetic" as it undergoes a process that is not natural. We are not just distilling crude oil to separate it into what we want so we can add other things to it to get a motor oil. We are also adding a non naturally occurring process to it to change some molecular structures around. Parts of the process are not naturally. They are unnatural or "synthetic". It is the process and not the final product that ultimately dermines if an oil is conventional or synthetic. They are very misleading terms and should probably be done away with entirely as how it does it's job is the only thing that matters. How it is made and what it is named is not as important as how well it does it's job.