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Originally Posted by olddragger
(Post 3854766)
I dont think those nozzles have an opening on the very end--only on the side. Like Ash says the oil comes out the side, not the middle.
OD Out of the 6 S2 Nozzle I have here, none have any "location" or "position" marker on them, so when they screw into Rotor Housing with single Copper Washer this Outlet can be at any position or in any direction, naturally it cant extend beyond R H face. Looking at the new spare S2 engine I have all of the 6 holes are the same as are threads, there would only be a mil (or less) between the end of Nozzle's circumference where Oil exits and Rotor Housing once the Nozzle is seated. So how can there be any real direct squirting of Oil or atomization? |
It comes out the side of the nozzle, but it isn't extended through the hole in the housing (that would be bad for obvious reasons).
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Originally Posted by ASH8
(Post 3854518)
S2's don't have vacuum connections on top of Nozzles either, internally they have a fine gauze filter, and a one way check valve. |
Originally Posted by ayrton012
(Post 3854839)
Actually the S1's nozzles have not got vacuum connections. As I stated earlier a lot of times that is a big problem if they get vacuum from their air intake side. The oil consumption will be very high, because the engine will sucks only oil without air from the nozzles.
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Where are those Shadycrew?
The air intake of the nozzle gets air from the intake hose before the throttle body (between the air celaner and the TB). Do you have vacuum there? Then your car has a failure! |
Originally Posted by ayrton012
(Post 3854930)
Where are those Shadycrew?
The air intake of the nozzle gets air from the intake hose before the throttle body (between the air celaner and the TB). Do you have vacuum there? Then your car has a failure! Those are the oil injectors from a S1, same things as the pics I posted earlier in this thread. :) |
Originally Posted by 9krpmrx8
(Post 3854995)
Those are the oil injectors from a S1, same things as the pics I posted earlier in this thread. :)
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1 Attachment(s)
Originally Posted by ayrton012
(Post 3854839)
Actually the S1's nozzles have not got vacuum connections. As I stated earlier a lot of times that is a big problem if they get vacuum from their air intake side. The oil consumption will be very high, because the engine will sucks only oil without air from the nozzles.
The Vacuum (S1 Only) is for the Nozzles internal Check Valve... https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1295557243 |
How much vacuum is present before the throttle plate anyway ?
Bugger all I would have thought .So , does vacuum play any role in the function of the nozzles ? :dunno: |
1 Attachment(s)
Yes to close/shut the check valve to stop Oil in Nozzle from going in the wrong direction when engine is at positive pressure.
https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1295558240 |
there is vacuum by venturi effect but that is it.
It really is a mystery to me how the S1's work. The dang banjo fittings on the mop lines are pretty strong by themselves and the mop pump doesnt place much pressure on the oil? I guess engine vacuum is what sucks it in? It is balanced agaisnt the atmosphreric pressure (basically speaking) from the intake? So if you have a tired engine and the vacuum is down to 16 from a normal of 20 then I would assume that less oil would be sucked in? That system sucks. OD |
Originally Posted by shadycrew31
(Post 3855045)
There is vacuum on them it might not be manifold vacuum pressure, but its something.
Air pulls up on the internal check valve inside of each injector. There needs to be vacuum pressure on each injectors for this to happen. The air flow is forward, which relieves vacuum on the oil flow, which would otherwise reduce the amount of oil injected. |
Originally Posted by MazdaManiac
(Post 3855090)
This is incorrect and not the function of the check valve.
The air flow is forward, which relieves vacuum on the oil flow, which would otherwise reduce the amount of oil injected. |
Originally Posted by ASH8
(Post 3855065)
Yes to close/shut the check valve to stop Oil in Nozzle from going in the wrong direction when engine is at positive pressure.
] The lines them selves would perform the same function if not even hooked up to the intake and the only reason they are is for filtration. |
^ This is correct.
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wait a minute--- i think i just confused myself?
If the intake line to the nozzles is only there for for barometic pressure then why does the system flow a lot more oil when that line is taken off the intake and left just open to the air? It shouldnt be any diffence should it? |
Originally Posted by olddragger
(Post 3855419)
It shouldnt be any diffence should it?
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None at all.
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Retested my old ones, look like two were bad after testing all four a few times.
-550 mmhg = 10.5 psi http://www.flickr.com/photos/9krpmrx8/5374293793/ almost -350 mmhg = 6.76psi http://www.flickr.com/photos/9krpmrx8/5374893688/ |
Originally Posted by ayrton012
(Post 3846987)
Let see it again OD:
The oil nozzle receives the barometric pressure from the air hose to prevent the negative pressure from the engine being applied to the oil inlet. Also, a one-way check valve has been adopted to prevent oil from flowing out of the air hose side when the engine is under positive pressure. https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1294947079 1 Air hose side 2 One-way check valve 3 Oil inlet 4 Oil outlet 5 Housing side Between the trottle's butterfly valve and the engine is vacuum. But there is atmo pres between the air cleaner and the throttle's butterfly valve. If there would be vacuum at the MOP nozzle's air intake pipe (1), the engine suck's out more oil from the MOP (3) than that is metering. With the atmospheric pressure on the nozzle's air intake (1), the engine's vacuum only sucks (4) the metered oil amount (pushing by the weak pressure of the MOP) and air from the air hose side (1). See the TSB what happens if the nozzles does not get barometric pres: http://www.finishlineperformance.com...30-09-2159.pdf |
alright heres one for you I am pulling from another thread for your engine failure theory:
Originally Posted by DocBeech
(Post 3855569)
Just as I said I researched it. I didn't find a whole lot in automotive community. But I went to the AOPA forums, and a couple other aircraft forums I am registered on. I did find a lot of people having problems with not only carbon fiber, but with fiberglass fuel cells. They are having to switch to alluminum in places that have E10 or higher. Also I found information on people with fiberglass boats where the ethanol softens or eats through the boats who use the hull for fuel storage. They are also starting to show that valves break down when introduced to ethanol. Intake valves for one. They are finding corrosion and sticky intake valves. Sound familiar? They were finding trace amounts of parts of the fuel system in the intakes. They analyzed it and found out the ethanol had softened up components of the fuel system which began to redeposit on intake valve and inside of injectors. They are finding that plastics are easily disolved by ethanol then redeposited other places in the engine system. So basically from our fuel pump, to our SSV valve.
(Phthalates, or phthalate esters, are esters of phthalic acid and are mainly used as plasticizers (substances added to plastics to increase their flexibility, transparency, durability, and longevity).) (GCMS - Gas Chromatography Mass Spectrometry ) "Phthalates are only sparingly soluble in water, however many are readily dissolved by ethanol. Whereas gasoline free from ethanol never picks up phthalates, when ethanol was introduced the very small ethanol molecules diffused into the fiberglass, filler and gel coat materials where they dissolved unreacted phthalates. Having been dissolved by smaller molecules, and almost certainly accelerated by osmotic pressure, some portion diffused back to the surface and was dispersed in the gasoline. Based on our GCMS results to date there are some other, presently unidentified, large molecules that were also leached out by the ethanol and similarly transferred into the gasoline." "Since they are in solution, the phthalates and the other heavy dissolved molecules are able to pass through the fuel line filters. When the gasoline with ethanol evaporates in the carburetor the heavy molecules do not evaporate but come out of solution and are carried along in the air-fuel mix as an aerosol. When the droplets impinge on throttle plates and on the walls of the induction system they can collect as reported." "Some of the molecules that impinge on the hot valve stems and under the crowns decompose to leave carbon powder and ash. Others, such as the phthalates that in general have exceptional high temperature stability, remain intact or undergo only partial decomposition and then act as the binder that holds together the carbon particles and ash as the observed" Some of those should look very familiar They are also having problems with one way valve systems like our oil injectors have. Basically the ethanol is capable of breaking down the plastic lines mazda chose to use. You can avoid this by making your own teflon lines. The plastic that is broken down in line, is not filtered and can clog the injectors. |
Ethanol in the fuel lines should have very little to do with gunk in the OMP lines. I can see in the oil nozzles themselves, but with the check valves, it would keep the plastic / ethanol out, wouldn't it?
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ok I am clear--part time dementia is a bitch.
I understand the omp design now--took some study, and it appears more complicated than it should be, but it is what it is. Some ethanol testings locally are showing percentages up to 18-20%! You truelly do not know what you are putting in your tank. You know some water has to be in there also. So if you are tuning on the edge, then I guess this has to be kept in mind? Almost like a duel fuel car. Even stations that use to be "pure gas" is feeling the pressure. Pure gas sure runs better in my car and it gets much better gas milage. 9K dang- if you are not motivating me to go ahead and test my nozzles before I fire this engine up. You can test them will they are in the engine cant you? OD |
You would have to pull your upper intake to get at them....not sure how accessable they would be with your blower on there either :( You could pull a vacuum on the supply line...and if it works you can assume that all 4 are working. If it doesn't you can only guess as to how many are faulty.....but I guess at that point it wouldn't matter...you would have to pull them to figure out what was up
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Originally Posted by olddragger
(Post 3855672)
ok I am clear--part time dementia is a bitch.
I understand the omp design now--took some study, and it appears more complicated than it should be, but it is what it is. OD |
Originally Posted by olddragger
(Post 3855672)
Some ethanol testings locally are showing percentages up to 18-20%! You truelly do not know what you are putting in your tank. You know some water has to be in there also.
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Originally Posted by DocBeech
(Post 3855615)
alright heres one for you I am pulling from another thread for your engine failure theory:
maybe our failure problem is much simpler than we think. The ethanol in the fuel is breaking down the Phthalates used in the making of the oil injection lines. Those deposits are then clogging our lines and causing the carbon build up we are seeing. It makes sense if you read the chemistry of exactly what ethanol does to plastic, rubber, and metal (with the exception of aluminum, for some reason aluminum seems to resist the corrosive affects of ethanol) Also... http://af.reuters.com/article/energy...NA934320110121 Dammit!!! |
Originally Posted by shadycrew31
(Post 3855821)
Getting gasoline without ethanol in it is not feasible.
There are stations that don't have ethanol. Ethanol is added after delivery of the gas. It is up to the store owner to decide how much he wants to use. |
BTW - A thread I started about this subject four years ago:
https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-major-horsepower-upgrades-93/omp-boost-potential-problem-117352/ |
Originally Posted by olddragger
(Post 3855672)
ok I am clear--part time dementia is a bitch.
I understand the omp design now--took some study, and it appears more complicated than it should be, but it is what it is. Some ethanol testings locally are showing percentages up to 18-20%! You truelly do not know what you are putting in your tank. You know some water has to be in there also. So if you are tuning on the edge, then I guess this has to be kept in mind? Almost like a duel fuel car. Even stations that use to be "pure gas" is feeling the pressure. Pure gas sure runs better in my car and it gets much better gas milage. 9K dang- if you are not motivating me to go ahead and test my nozzles before I fire this engine up. You can test them will they are in the engine cant you? OD Yeah you could test them while they are in the motor, but like Dan said, the UIM would have to be removed. But if the engine is out then it would be easier. |
Originally Posted by MazdaManiac
(Post 3855833)
That's not true.
There are stations that don't have ethanol. Ethanol is added after delivery of the gas. It is up to the store owner to decide how much he wants to use. Also it is a federal law to have a biofuel mixed with gasoline. Selling straight pump gas with no biofuel additive would be illegal. |
Check out Walmart, like I posted, not all Murphy USA stations have ethanol in the fuel. I am sure there are others. Let's not mix the ethanol debate in with this discussion.
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Originally Posted by shadycrew31
(Post 3855851)
Also it is a federal law to have a biofuel mixed with gasoline. Selling straight pump gas with no biofuel additive would be illegal.
There is just a mandate to sell a certain amount of biomass-based fuel in the course of doing business. Station managers can choose to oxygenate their fuel however they like. |
Originally Posted by 9krpmrx8
(Post 3855859)
Check out Walmart, like I posted, not all Murphy USA stations have ethanol in the fuel. I am sure there are others. Let's not mix the ethanol debate in with this discussion.
Side note: the Act increases the amount of biofuel (usually ethanol) that must be mixed with gasoline sold in the United States to 4 billion gallons by 2006, 6.1 billion gallons by 2009 and 7.5 billion gallons by 2012;[1] Unless I'm reading that wrong which is possible. |
True the ethenol will settle out when it reacts with the water. Some drag racers in this area use E85, blend the gas out of it and use the remaining for there alki injection. They use the gas for their lawnmowers etc--taking the ethanol out takes away about 2 octane points by report.
Gasahol doesnt store well. I can find pure gas in my hometown and it seems that the demand for it is increasing. There is a line everytime I go to a pure gas station. Guess the grassroot nechanics will see a lot more business. Now back to the op's subject? |
Originally Posted by dannobre
(Post 3855735)
You would have to pull your upper intake to get at them....not sure how accessable they would be with your blower on there either :( You could pull a vacuum on the supply line...and if it works you can assume that all 4 are working. If it doesn't you can only guess as to how many are faulty.....but I guess at that point it wouldn't matter...you would have to pull them to figure out what was up
If we pull the injectors, we can see if the injector is clogged pretty easily, and test individually, but still cannot see if oil is flowing, right? With injector pulled, there is no way to run the motor and see if oil is making it through, right? So, is there a way to tell the omp to "pump/meter like hell for a bit" so we can see if oil is flowing without taking it to a dealer? Maybe apply 12V to a specific pin? If that were the case, we could pull upper manifold, pull/clean/test injectors, flow oil, and then hope to get it all back together. Or, is oil pressure / vacuum required to flow? If it is, maybe just try to suck some oil through with a little vacuum pump, if OMP will allow, maybe with 12V on a particular pin? |
Originally Posted by shadycrew31
(Post 3855874)
I think the discussion has led us to the ethanol debate though.... New topic perhaps?
Originally Posted by 04Green
(Post 3855897)
So, is there a way to tell the omp to "pump/meter like hell for a bit" so we can see if oil is flowing without taking it to a dealer?
It is also useful for starting/transporting a car with a blown motor. |
My point was missed. So let me try again. Related to this topic of problems with MOP lines and injectors I believe that part of our problem could be degradation of the MOP lines from ethanol in the fuel. The same fuel which every oil analysis shows to be in the oil. Its known that ethanol breaks down plastic lines maybe our injectors are being clogged and our valves are not functioning properly because of damage from ethanol.
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Yeah I mentioned that in the ethanol thread. Many UOA's show fuel in the oil, so you have a point.
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Originally Posted by DocBeech
(Post 3856260)
I believe that part of our problem could be degradation of the MOP lines from ethanol in the fuel.
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The MOP is using dirty oil. Oil that is already diluted with fuel.
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Ethanol would likely evaporate long before fuel and water....and below the normal operating oil temperatures....Not likely a huge component with E10 type fuels....it would be so slight that it would be negligible. That would be different with E85..but that isn't a issue for anyone.
I would imagine that heat would be the main contributing factor...The oil would also be post engine..pre-filter in the circulation....be that what it may :) |
Yeah and my lines had 120,000 on them so I doubt the minuscule amount of fuel in the oil containing Ethanol was an issue in the deterioration of the lines. I just think if you are rebuilding a DD, replacing the OMP lines and injectors is probably a good idea if you have a good amount of miles on your car. getting my injectors cleaned and tested is next for me, I just wish I could have done it when i had all that crap apart :lol:
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Originally Posted by 9krpmrx8
(Post 3858926)
Yeah and my lines had 120,000 on them so I doubt the minuscule amount of fuel in the oil containing Ethanol was an issue in the deterioration of the lines. I just think if you are rebuilding a DD, replacing the OMP lines and injectors is probably a good idea if you have a good amount of miles on your car. getting my injectors cleaned and tested is next for me, I just wish I could have done it when i had all that crap apart :lol:
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Subscribed. Read every post.
It does make me wonder where the line between raced engines and street engines is. Almost certainly not a line at all, but rather a scaling grade. How hard do we have to thrash our engines on the street and how regularly to start seeing some of the same problems that Eric is vs common street problems? |
Eric,
Do you know of anyone that is running the S2 engine on the track? What are their experiences with engine life, tear down data etc? Wondering if the new design has really had an affect in the track enviroment. That would be invaluable data to have. I dont know of any S2 teardowns really, I know Paul/ Rick had one that was a victim of a fluke accident--it inhaled something in a wreck? Nothing really found but the engine had low miles and easy use. OD |
Originally Posted by olddragger
(Post 3859454)
Eric,
Do you know of anyone that is running the S2 engine on the track? What are their experiences with engine life, tear down data etc? Wondering if the new design has really had an affect in the track enviroment. That would be invaluable data to have. I dont know of any S2 teardowns really, I know Paul/ Rick had one that was a victim of a fluke accident--it inhaled something in a wreck? Nothing really found but the engine had low miles and easy use. OD I have heard the rpm ceiling has been raised for these cars and they make about 2 to 3 hp more on an engine dyno. 260 vs. 255-258. Motors we have had built by someone who has been very involved with this series turned 258 flywheel. These same S1 motors pulled approx 215 rwhp on a dynojet and 2004-2008 trans. I am unaware if either of these two engines run an OMP. |
Ok, thats something.
09 injectors and intake manifold does seems to add a little power. I have heard others say the same. I will see if anyone at the Mitty this year can give us any down and dirty info. I have a gut feeling the S2 engine is giving more hours of use? OD |
Personally, I believe a few things contribute to the premature failure of the Renesis motor. I think you can look at the changes to the Series II and get a good idea of what the problem areas are with the Series I.
I think a malfunctioning OMP system will affect engine life eventually. Whether the affect is from the lack of cooling from the oil injectors or from a lack of lubrication is debatable but likely both are important. IMO, Injecting dirty engine oil is not ideal, Mazda only did this because the normal owner is not going to monitor and refill an oil reservoir. Premixing also helps but again, the average owner is not going to mess with premixing their fuel. I believe premixing and running the SOHN are necessary if you want your engine to live a long healthy life. We have seen bearing wear. I attribute that to insufficient 5W-20 oil in high load/high temp "extreme" situations and possibly due to low oil pressure. Running fully synthetic (if you have the SOHN) 40 weight or higher is a good idea and changing your oil regularly is a must due to the amount that remains in the engine and coolers. The Mazmart oil pressure mod is a no brainer. Cooling is always a concern. Coolant temps and oil temps should be monitored and if you are seeing excessive temps then they should be addressed. There are several options to address these issues like proper ducting, freeing up area behind the fans, secondary radiators, Mazmart water pump, Mazmart Thermostat, better radiators (griffin, Ron Davis, etc.) better oil coolers, or simplified oil lines like the Racing Beat lines, and better coolers or a large single oil cooler. Filtration is also important, and personally I don’t think there is any real benefit to running a hi flow filter on a street driven vehicle. The minuscule HP gains are far outweighed by the damage sand and other types of dirt can do to your engine. All I have to do is look at the built up dirt in the tray under my intake box to see what could possibly make it into my engine. I’ll stick with an OEM type WIX filter on this motor. Habits are important too, if you are the type who just gets in your car in the morning and takes off, driving hard when the engine and oil are cold, then you are likely doing damage to your engine. The engine needs to be warmed up before revving hard and a stock 8 takes some time to get fully warmed up. I am in South Texas and even here when the factory temp gauge reads normal, the oil is still too cold to start redlining or putting a high load on the engine. However, to avoid moisture in the oil, and to help minimize carbon build up the RX8 needs to warmed up and driven hard from time to time. Of course, if you only plan on owning the RX8 for a year or two and could care less if it makes it to 100-150,000 miles then just drive the damn thing and don’t worry about all this :) |
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