I believe the USA is the only country to recommend 5w-20, due to emissions reasons. I really don't believe that a perceived higher quality of gas has to do with anything. Fuel has only improved in it's quality over the last 20-25 years. SA/FB's and naturally aspirated FC's did extremely well in their engine life expectancy.

I think every legitimate thread gets killed by the great oil debate.

they also had much lower compression, pp exhausts, and a quite different oil injection system in addition to other things .... I don't think this is a completely valid comparison

Should not need to worry as the original 'Blue Paint Coded' Side Seal N3H1-11-C17A are no longer available, MMC are now only supplying the latest Pink Paint Coded ones
N3H1-11-C17B.
A is automatically superseded to the B's.

BTW: AGAIN, split or broken side seal springs are nothing new, it happened 30 years ago with a much finer seal spring.

I guess the pics of Rick E showing Concaved Apex seals at 50,000 or less miles 3 years ago means nothing also...got those pics somewhere..

I guess Mazda re-introducing an Oil Injector (S2) to the middle of the seals was also not done for Apex Seal wear....they just did it for the heck of it.

This is incorrect.
Our fuel uses AKI instead of RON, which is an average of RON and MON.
95 RON is roughly equal to US 89 (RON+MON/2).
For the most part, MON is 10 points lower than RON, so you can do the math yourself.
Euro and US gasoline are essentially identical, though US infrastructure pretty much guarantees that our fuel is physically cleaner.

They did it for apex seal cooling.
The heat causes the wear, not a lack of lubricity.
As has been pointed out several times, the rotary is, essentially, a dry-seal motor.
It needs very, very little in the way of seal lubrication.

new yorker--you like numbers--show/ share the numbers/ percentage that you have that the engine is not getting replaced very frequently? Can you do that?

Personnel experience in Ga--every rx8 owner I know-- except one, and he is really down on power--really down---have had their engines replaced--some more than once.

5w/20 oil, out of control temps, multiple factory pcm flashes, gas with ethanol, poor fuel pump, engine hot spots due to water pump cavatation etc, no magnet in the oil system, lowest oil pressure on a rotary engine, 9K rpm redline and engine is not balanced for that, 10:1 compression and weak ignition coils --add it up
the s1 renesis didnt have a chance.
I am interested in seeing how the S2 engine is holding up---so far so good?
OD

Heat is carried with exhaust....

In this case, I feel that the exhaust port placement is important as well ... cooling for side seals because important when exhaust ports were placed on the sides. Rather than when they were PP and on the single injector was in the center.


I am worried about how the mazdatrix hybrid motor will do without side seal lubrication ....

Take your nose out of the book and go talk to the people that are responsible for this stuff and then go out and build/race/break some cars then come back to us.
Until then, refrain from waiving pamphlets and other materials that are designed to "inform" the cretins that work at parts desks and service counters.

Please.

Just a quick note on that:

There are 5 major Mazda dealers in Phoenix. One is a QMD dealership. In 2008, the QMD dealership was reporting 20 engine replacements a month. One of the others was 15 a month.
In 2010, both service managers said their replacement rates had continued over the 2 years unabated.
That is over 800 engine replacements in 2 years.
Who knows what the other dealerships are doing (I don't).
I can get figures for the total number of RX-8s registered in the state later, but it is probably less than 7000.
At that replacement rate, every car registered in the state will have received at least one engine replacement by 2013, even if you don't discount the other dealerships, the non-dealer replacements and all the cars that wont opt for a replacement one way or another.
I don't have access to better data than what the service writers claimed, but I know that some of the techs were claiming even greater replacement rates.
The rotary-certified tech at the QMD dealership, at one point, was claiming that he was doing 5 engines a week by himself.
Even if all of their claims are inflated by 200%, that is still a much higher failure rate than many Mazda apologists are claiming by several orders of magnitude.

Seeing things like that kind of make me not want to get an 8... I wonder if using a SOHN, premixing, decat and AP would help a lot.


Seems like Eric didn't have problems with carbon, but too much heat on the side seals from the side exhaust port killed the side seals. Maybe with a good balance of hard driving and low load driving time, engine life could be decent?

^ Thank you. I knew that what I was told by my service writer who has worked there for years was probably not totally accurate but the numbers are still high none the less. He told me the number for them (one dealer in a city of 5) was around 100 a year (at the time he told me this). Our other SARX member is a tech at that same dealer and previously at another dealer and I believe he said there are pretty much always RX8 replacements going on.

I think the failures are due to more than one specific issue but what OD stated he is seeing is what we are seeing here with our large group in Texas. I'd have to get with them but in our group I only know of three members with Series 1's that have not had engine replacements and they are both driving 07's with low mileage. I know of quite a few replacements in the DFW and Houston crowd as well. As for local members on this board with Series II's, we have 3 09' R3's, an 09' Touring, and two 2010's that are all trouble free so far.

Every engine will blow eventually. Our engines are just covered for a longer period of time than your average piston engine. Also they are a bit cheaper/easier to rebuild than your standard piston engine.

Some engines last to 30k, 50k, or even 100k. Nothing else really falls apart I got 130k on my car, I've rebuilt the engine and replaced the shocks, nothing else has failed on me yet.

Just follow some preventative maint and your good.

I believe they do help but we will not know until some guys (like me) start pulling apart engines that have seen these mods for the entire life of the engine. I have had these "reliability mods" since break in (Cobb was added about 15k into it) on my reman engine which now has 24k or so on it.

1. BHR Ignition
2. BHR Fuel Pump
3. SOHN
4. Cobb AP (lower fan temps, now working on Increased OMP rates)
5. Premix
6. Catless midpipe (SR and now BHR)
7. Mazmart RE Oil pressure kit
8. Fluidyne single oil cooler conversion
9. 0W-40 Synthetic every 3,000 miles or less
10. Koyo Rad (not really an improvement over OEM actually)
11. Distilled water and water wetter in cooling system

And of course I warm her up everyday and get her a good run through the gears. If this engine fails prematurely then I will replace it with a proper rebuild, premix it, and just drive the shit out of it on the weekends and get a new rotary for DD . I do believe the changes to the Series II were done for a reason though and they appear to be holding up quite well (have not heard of any failures) so I think people should take note of the increased oil pressure, extra oil injector, and over changes of the oiling system.

this is the stupidest shit Mazda did, ever.

I prefer their old way ---- show a chart telling people its ok to use these, don't recommend anything. I guess people are too stupid these days to make their own decision.

This has something to do with stock flash's fan turn on temp and the poor airflow in the engine bay.

Mazda is trying their best to try to mask the problem. even tho they failed, if they would lower the fan on temp it will help a lot, but a lot of dumbasses will start visit their dealership and ask "oh, my car is having problems, the fan keeps turning on !"

Gas with Ethanol, u gotta tell EPA and tree huggers that.

Fuel pump, just replace it with a higher rating pump, its funny that S1 has 6 injectors and they're giving us the most pos fuel pump ever.

it designed that way because most people won't even bother shift it pass 6K. but it will create a problem for people who does.

easily fix with an aftermarket part.

Mazda either overlooked this, or they just think that they don't wanna confuse end-users, cuz most end users are f-ing dumb and might think its not normal to see metal shavings in oil.

Try FC NA's oil pressure.

yeah, RX-8's engine oil pressure is too low for its max rpm.

but hey, its fixable. not hard, just time consuming (need to take it down and install higher pressure regulator)

Engine is "ok" until around 8K. after that it starts vibrating and the rotor strikes everywhere.

10:1 compression is ok if they properly balanced it in the first place, but I guess if they have to completely balance every single engine that will cost them a lot.

Ignition coils are ok imo, S2 has an updated bracket for better cooling, well of course you should replace it on a regular basics, probably not as often as S1.

honestly, all Mazda engines are not that balanced nor properly clearance at the factory, so if u want it to last, its always better to rebuild it yourself or have someone to build & balance it properly.

What a high numbers! Strange. What would be the reasons why here in Europe much less engine is failing? Maybe we don't do compression test everytime.

I believe that there is nothing wrong with 20w oils in the Renesis if you raise the pressure (flow). The "fixed" problem is that the S1 doesn't get the technically minimum ( and factory reference) oil pressure in a lot of using situations...and the slow oil flow causes abnormal heats, so the oil pressure goes lower, more far from the tech minimum. Hey we have almost 4kg rotors! Think about S2, the almost doubled oil pressure is not just for the emop system. If you shimming the regulators (like Mazmart mod), you will get enough oil pressure in the S1 even with 20w oils, and you won't read such a high oil temps. The higher pressure means more oil (/same time) inside the rotors too, that has to mean more cooling even on the seals.


MOP-OMP: The mop's nozzles almost working like a carburators. They get air (from before TB), and oil (instead of gas like a carb). So if I'm not wrong (possible), a thinner oil causes more homogen oil "spray" from the nozzles.

Anyway I use 0w-30 (3000miles/change), MOP (no premix), increased oil pressure, low average oil temps, and my first engine (but only 35k).

Those numbers are strange, aren't they! If I were of a more cynical nature, I'd say the notion that virtually every S1 Renesis engine ever made has failed — or will fail prematurely — is nothing less than absurd. Fact is, owners on this very forum have already posted that they've exceeded 100K miles on their original engines. So maybe it's not that less engines are failing in Europe; maybe it's that more engines are not failing here.

Incidentally, in a world where every major recall and callback is reported in every major US paper and on every news program, if any auto manufacturer were to actually produce a car with an engine where every engine has failed or will fail prematurely, that would be considered news. Reporters would be fighting one another to see who could get the story out first. There are automotive websites that pride themselves on uncovering stories the manufacturers don't want you to hear. Like "The Truth About Cars," for example (www.thetruthaboutcars.com). Don't you find it odd that TTAC — nor any other automotive website — has broken this "story"? They haven't. Ask yourself why.

Maybe the fortune of Mazda is that the RX-8's are only a very little part of motorization so don't get bigger interest by the press. But I don't want to be cynical. Actually what I don't understand, why Mazda did-do not realize, why not bother them that their engine does not has the technically minimum oil pressure in a lot of situation? They gave reference oil pressure for the engine, but it doesnt reach it. Why it is not in the recalls?

Otherwise here in Europe are much less factory recall than you can find at the finishline site.... , the european mazda parts order system even doesn't know thy part number of zoom cleaner.

Look, I have absolutely NO Doubt, MY 09 S2 Engine will die, more than likely a premature death, for the following reasons., more than likely due to Carbon.

1.We know they run Pig rich.
2.No AP, never will be.
3.I don't track her, for a good clean-out plus we don't have a track in my state, went broke years ago.
4. Policing where I live is so tight, opportunities to use full rev range are hard to find, unless you want to drive around in 1st or 2nd gear all day.
5. Others.

There is a VAST difference to any Raced rotary and a domestic one and comparing them is again both silly and ridiculous, the overwhelming numbers of ANY car are not race.
As I have said before in Australia it has been documented that 25% of RX-8's fail, but there is one huge difference, Warranty, ours can only ever be 3-4 years not 8. Plus there is a massive difference between all other markets, the 8 was naturally the highest seller in NA 'Numbers' wise, Mazda had to step in and extend engine warranty, if they did not they would have been forced to...Simple.

Changing OP in S1's is not going to Fix a fundamentally flawed engine, don't you think Mazda knows this, they simply cant afford to do any more that what they have already done with S1 and warranty. Higher OP is Not going to lube the middle of the apex seal...is it...do you think they are going to spend another 2-3 k and renew entire MOP system to EMOP, OP Upgrade, wiring upgrade and PCM, PLUS a Rebuild (already at 6K per engine and increasing due to YEN), you are delusional (..;)..) if you think Mazda would ever do this.

YES we all know the Side Seals take a hammering, just like the Crap Apex Seals of the 70's took a hammering and wore out early, but as said before you will never see a peripheral ported rotary, it just wont happen.

It is either RENESIS (now 2), Hydrogen or Nothing.

I bought the RX-8 Knowing exactly what I was getting into, if you have or have not ever had a rotary then you must, just to experience what they offer, particularly the 8...IMO, and without any doubt the BEST balanced, best Driving ROTARY EVER MADE, and I have extensively either driven and or owned them all from 1969...(no Roadpacer).

One owns a rotary for what it is.

Agree with all of it, except the last bit, IMO it is the owner who fails the car.
Image for you, J.

That is because the cleaner is a North American only source and part numbered product.

Subaru (Japan) put out the same product, Mazda Dealers here are buying it from Subaru Australia.

Officially MMC does not recognize its use as a fix, frankly I tend to agree, IMO it is a waste of time (can un-stick a stuck seal)...Only one real way to remove carbon off rotors and that is a rebuild...

Because, even in its biggest selling year (which was a bit of a cheat since it was actually a year and a half), only one RX-8 was sold for every 20 Camrys sold.
The following year was half as many and following that year was half again.
For only every 10 RX-8s sold, Lamboghini sells one car. You do the math.

When Mazda put out the engine warranty extension, it barely showed up on the news at all.
Had Nissan or Toyota made the same announcement, you would see class action law suits in the $100M range immediately.

:eek:
Imagine my surprise of overlooking this thread since it's inception and I just went and read every single post!

Please excuse me while I go pick up the one bazillion pieces of my brain from the explosion! :SHOCKED:

Good thread and some rather good theories.

Summation....damned if you do and damned if you don't. :crying:

the rotary is what it is.
Kinda like when i first discovered my penis---i thought "Ok i have this thing, I really like it, but now what do i do with it, just enjoy it while I can?"

I will probably be banned for saying that.
OD

Getting back to Eric's theory on the side seal springs. Besides upgrading the materials has anyone looked at changing the design to allow for something with more meat and less movement? more metal and less motion would increase the life of the spring at the same temperatures. Of course upgrading the material is still probably in order if it's underdesigned for the temps. Something like a belleville washer with a nickel alloy in it would do a better job. Nickel's not very springy though and I have no idea how to package it on the rotor sides. Or as Jeff suggested a high chrome stainless steel may be the ticket.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring_%28device%29#Types

Even with this information below, me thinks the smart Renesis Engineers have figured out that the current springs works best. Interesting to think about a stronger spring for our type of environment. Thanks for the idea Shaun

http://www.smalley.com/wave_springs/expanders.asp

http://www.smalley.com/engineering/materials_table.asp

:rollingla Reminds me of that Steve Martin movie "The Jerk" when he discovered his "Special Purpose".

Okay, so now back to the thread, I see there are already a couple more posts I gotta go catch up on! :wallbash:

Enjoyed some beer while reading through the entire thread. And I have to admit that the impression of the RX-8 is quite different on this "American" forum than it is over here. I think there's a bit over 150 RX-8's in Norway. I've heard of a couple 2004 automatic (standard power) models and one 2004 high power having replaced engines. I've had personal contact with perhaps 15-20 RX-8 drivers and had info from some 8-10 more, and bar some coil issues I pointed towards the BHR kit I haven't heard of any serious problems or engine replacements. That's why this sounds strange to me. But I don't KNOW, maybe 50 of the drivers I haven't talked to had their engines replaced or maybe they have horrible compression now.

But the fact that this is a 45,000 to 65,000 dollar car here I think it's odd that they don't find the national forums if they have problems. I may do some research on the matter.

That's exactly why I want one! Every time I read about it, I hear nothing but good reviews on how it drives. Threads like this are kind of scary to prospective owners though... :shocking:

This guy looks like your candidate: :)

INCONEL5 ALLOY 718
AMS-55961 180,0002 102,0002 1300 29.6 X 106

Nice stuff Eric. Also interesting to note that it's modulus of elasticity is about the same as that carbon and stainless steel. Very clever bit of metallurgy there. Bravo!

Inco -718 was the go-to stuff when I was in gas turbine design. Although the bosses would always roll their eyes at us because it was pricey. "again with the Inco-718 guys." "Well if you want it to last and not melt...yes."

Don't let them bother you, get a good late RX-8 as possible ..

For "normal" owners there is absolutely nothing that is said in this thread that has not been discussed many, many times before, many years ago.

Just like there is nothing new in technical information that Mazda does not know or already has not tried to address, the only latest upgrade in S2's engines has been the Side Seal Spring, and used in all new RENESIS rebuilds from about now, time will tell if it makes any reliability improvement.

You wont be disappointed, just get a good one.;)

That's why I was trying to get an 06. I really want Winning Blue, and the last year they made that was 06... I figured as an 06 it would have spent the least time (or none, can't remember flash dates) driving with the low oil consumption of the early models.

There are so many possibilities on the side seal failures, and the engine failures in general. Here are a few things I wonder about.............

The seal is much closer to the edge of the rotor than before...likely causes more exposure to combustion heat from that??

The addition of the extra cutoff seal...does it cut down on the oil lubrication the side seal recieves from oil that used to make it past the oil control rings on the old engines??

Obviously the exhaust heat from the other rotor causes heating of the rotor..

Lower oil pressure...less oil spray into the rotor for cooling??

As far as I am concerned the carbon issue is more of a problem for cars that are street driven. My very small sample size has shown me little to no carbon buildup in my engines that I tracked a lot. The engines that I have seen on non-tracked cars were carboned to crap.

Saying that race car engines and racing are irrelevant to street car failures is crap though. The race environment stresses engines way more than street driving ever will, and racing technology has done nothing but improve street engines in every regard.

ASH....We likely have all read the Mazda documentation that they have released....and quoting it is a waste of time. If you can get some Mazda technical information on the specific failures they are seeing with this engine...post that ;) But it is a bit condecending to post the stuff from the Dealer Highlights manual that is mostly tidbits for the techs who couldn't give a hoot to try and figure this out.....except maybe to have a few buzz words to quote to uninformed owners

There's definately corroberation, but there's also a point where the modifications do become irrelevant for a road car - no roadgoing car would benefit from the oil cooler and radiator sizes/hoses/setup that we run for example, you'd never use them to their full extent, and just be lugging extra weight around and have a packaging nightmare to deal with.

Racing solutions can help, but only if extrapolated/adapted to road use, rather than a straight copy

For sure.....that's what I love about the internet...things get taken way too literally :)

If it wasn't for racing...the only thing driving engine design would be emissions ;) That would sure be fun LOL.

YES, especially with side exhaust vs pp exhaust ports ... heat is carried with exhaust gases, now that it is no a PP exhaust (when the apex seal was getting battered), we are seeing this issue on side seals. The issue is even greater as they are closer to the edge...

Someone more knowledgeable than I should comment, but I would say yes as well...

Absolutely, also coolant goes front rotor -> rear rotor -> radiator ... so the rear rotor sees warmer coolant and runs hotter in general ...

you also have the transmission right there and it gets warm as well ... possilby warmed than engine bay temps (in front and around the front rotor) when in motion...

This is why rear rotors blow first often...

Also, on the rx8, the rear rotor runs slightly richer to combat this effect.

Not necessarily, it depends on who you ask, but some say the MOP sees atmos pressure. If oil pressure was required, then SOHN adapters would not work?

I'll leave this for someone else to expand.

I do agree in general ... BUT

You just said carbon is only an issue on the street and not in a race environment. This would suggest that we need to consider the street application as fundamentally different than race environment .... :dunno:

^+1 ... I am fb friends with a dude that works on Rotaries at mazda japan, I will try to hit him up ...

Only in terms of solving the carbon problem. The heat and lubrication questions are still very relevant from racing to street applications.

edit: That was a bit harsh. I'd like to keep the discussion constructive.

Well it goes from front combustion side to rear combustion side...to rear exhaust to front exhaust to radiator...so that kinda blows that theory :)

It does? Where does this happen? as far as I know the ECu doesn't adjust the rear trim

I eas talking about the eccentric shaft spray nozzles..not the MOP :) The MOP on series 1's do not see pressurized imputs..the Series 2 are a whole different system:)

That is data that I would pay to see :) Get on that dude :)

I am going to let Eric test out the new spring rates since he has the money and track time to test it. Plus hes got 4 engines sitting in his garage to play with. I would love to see how it turns out though!

all good.
Dan the repositioning of the side seal had not been mentioned in this thread. good pick up. I mentioned the new design of the side seal. wedge type now--wedge shaped stuff takes whatever force is applied on the wide part and focuse's that force toward the small side. Ever spit logs for firewood?
Maybe the new shaped side seal is also applying a higher than previous pressure on the spring too?
That wouldnt be good would it?

Great input guys. If people take the time to read they may learn a thing or two (or become more confused :lol: ) Can anyone give me a visual on the repositioning and changes made to the side seals? I'm having trouble (duh) picturing this in my head. Wedge type?

how do you figure?

Use your own example of a wedge splitting firewood. The shape doesnt change the forces involved, it only changes the area over which the force is applied to create a mechanical advantage of sorts. What is the shape of the piece in question where it makes contact with the spring, in comparison to previous shape?

From the older 13'bs the renesis side seal is pushed closer to the edge of the rotor.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_CM8WLBpAaS.../s400/RC+2.jpg


http://www.atkinsrotary.com/images/store/89NaRotor.jpg

The side seal itself is a wedge shape versus flat even shape. You cannot put in an older style flat side seal into the renesis rotor it just doesn't fit.

The rotor was designed to have the wedge. I forget the logic behind the wedge but I know it made sense when I heard it.

Sorry I cant find a good pic of the side seal cut itself.

Sorry I am really tired I hope this made sense.

the side seal groove is cut in a wedge shape as well as the seal it self. So it would be the same surface area.

I hope this helps you!

https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1295164744

https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1295164477

https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1295164197

I also found this page for you

https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tech-garage-22/my-latest-renesis-engine-build-195573/

'Have we ALL read it', Really, It appears not to be so, and thanks to Kevin (Dealer Tech) who originally posted the 09 Highlights from MMC a few years back, we would know even less.

Those 'tidbits' correlates and cross reference exactly to what has been renewed, modified replaced or added with Mazda's genuine Parts Manuals....In other words what is said is exactly correct with all vehicle changes.

Perhaps you could suggest or demonstrate what has changed in the Series 2 RX-8's at a mechanical micro level in the 2010 and 2011 models?, as there has been quite a few changes and a few significant ones..

Please, I wait for your response.

Don't want to know, or don't really care...fine.;)

Condescending that is a bloody laugh, no , please do not stack me in that group as there are enough 'Legends' in this Forum who know way more than what Mazda does and why they get it wrong, they are so successful at what they do and are highly recommended. They are so clever and knowledgeable that they are constantly consulting with Shinji Kanai, Manager Technical Service Department in MMC Japan telling him what is wrong.

You really do tar ALL Mazda Dealers with the same brush?, well not where I come from, perhaps doing it right is the reason why Australia is Mazda best performing market worldwide, with the highest Customer Satisfaction level than ANY other brand of car., WHY?, because repairs are done correctly most of the time, owners are satisfied most of the time. Mazda along with Honda also has the highest loyalty rating of any other brand here, once a Mazda or Honda owner always one.

In contrast to North America the brand has an average experience with owners, perhaps, perhaps because all of the non dealer amateurs who misrepresent car makers, making a quid out of false information, questionable parts, poor workmanship and down right lies to fraud...all installs a great reputation for ANY make of car.

Until MNAO seriously tackles what their Dealers do, HOW they do it, who they employ, how they are trained, etc, etc, nothing much will change.
Mazda will continue to be in the middle of the heap.

Gee it has been shown here just how good Vendors can be at Customer Service, Supply and at an After Sales level...what after sales!.
Some are brilliant, some are just bloody woeful, and treat their bread and butter with utter contempt.

WHY would any sane enthusiast even contemplate a relationship with businesses like this...must like to bend over!

This thread is about Possible NEW Renesis Engine Failure Theory?, theory indeed and everything in between.

Yes, it is all good and forums like ours can be great for informing and "help".