I agree, they are probably ok to 100k physically but who knows when my actually clogged and stopped delivering oil. Also if only one or two of the injectors or lines clog or fail, you likely won't notice it unless you really pay attention to your oil consumption.

I know from NYCGPS in my other thread that odula makes a heat shield for the OMP. Not sure if it protects the lines much. the lines run right across the housings so they see some serious heat.

I don't see how you could protect or shield these lines from the heat the engine puts off. These line are tight up against the housing. I was afraid to pull on them all that much because they were so rigid. Another reason I disconnected them from the omp when installing the Sohn adapter. I guess what I'm trying to say is there is not enough space to insulate the stock lines being how they are situated. However, if you were able to fabricate your own you could route them away from the engine and insulate them.

That is not vacuum line, that is barometric pressure line (before throttle).

The oil nozzle receives the barometric pressure from the air hose to prevent the negative pressure from the engine being applied to the oil inlet. Also, a one-way check valve has been adopted to prevent oil from flowing out of the air hose side when the engine is under positive pressure. (copyright by Mazda)

Anyway I'm happy with my OMP, until I have my first engine. I believe that the frequently changed 0w-30, the higher oil flow (shimmed regs, single cooler system) partly solved the longevity problems. The more oil spray inside the rotors better cool down the seals for example. Don't break my confidence in the OMP-nozzle team! ;)

I too have had higher oil pressure from my mazmart mod and my single oil cooler conversion and I believe it helps with longevity but you definitley need to monitor your oil consumption to assure the lines and oil injectors are functioning normally.

I'm not trying to pick on 9K, but I do wonder if extended idling in a hot climate on a fully warmed up engine can lead to clogged lines.

Think about it. When the engine is up to temperature, the ECU lowers the oil delivery while idling to nearly zero. Thus, the flow rate in the OMP lines is very low, and the oil in the lines could get very hot, perhaps leaving deposits behind, particularly when the oil isn't pristine & clean.

I seem to recall that there is a perceived correlation between cars driven in hot climates in stop-and-go driving (think rush hour on freeways in large cities & southern climates) and engine failures. This would be consistent with the above theory, but it's just a theory.

I will have to disagree. That is a vacuum hose to the omp nozzles. Any hose attached to the intake be it before or after the TB is a vacuum hose.
I do hear what you are saying though. Does this mean that hose doesnt have to be attached to the intake? It just needs atmospheric pressure?
All this doesnt make sense to me. Two checks valves per nozzle, vaccum to the nozzle that has low pressure/flow already etc. To much for my old brain.
And then the S2 models dont have those check valves anymore, their omp pump pressure is higher and they dont have vaccum to the lines.
Maybe we can do without the checks valves in the lines and just open that vacuum line to atmosphere?

Pick on me all you want :lol:.

I do allow my car to idle each morning until almost fully warmed up. But keep in mind that with my single oil cooler and oil pressure mod, that happens in much less time than an RX8 running stock coolers and oil pressure. I do this so I can row through the gears and get the oil fully up to temp before I get to work. I drive hard to work (no traffic, all access roads) and I think that is great for the car. Some days I go to the bank and run errands before work and on those days I just let the coolant get to 150 and then I slowly drive around until the oil thermostat opens at around 173-175F.

9krpmrx8 not to get off topic but how hard is the install on the mazmart mod on a scale of 1 - 10. For instance I would rate the Sohn install at maybe a 6 or 7. (For goons with larger hands like myself :lol:) I agree that the more oil the better. Especially since I only take my 8 out to beat the shit out of it!

Yes, but your first two engines did not have the single oil cooler. ;)

Either way, the question stands - will extended idling in hot conditions result in buildup within the delivery lines?

Incorrect. It is an atmo reference.
If you have vacuum before your throttle body, you have an unacceptable restriction.

if u rate Sohn adapter as 6-7

then I guess the oil pressure regulator will be a 9-10 to you.

cuz u need to take the pan away to install it. cuz its a 2 part deal, the rear regulator and shim the front bypass.

Yeah but In the first two engines I did not idle like that, I had a 70 mile round trip ride to work and back so unless it was cold (rare), I would let her idle for a minute or two and then make the mile drive to the highway and head to work (35 miles or so).

I could see how dirty engine oil could cause build up possibly leading to clogged lines so this is yet another benefit you would get from running the SOHN and nice clean 2 stroke.

And yes, the SOHN installation is easy. 1/4" rachet with extensions and you are done in 30 minutes at most if you don't take Call of Duty breaks like me every 15 minutes that is. The mazmart OP kit is easy but time consuming (scraping the old RTV off is a bitch).

I've searched around for a diy for installing the SOHN and couldn't find one on this site. I did, however, find one at Rotary Insider
Looks to be an easy job!

9krpmrx8 explained it to me. The only reason I rated the Sohn install as a 6 to 7 is I removed it by accessing it from the top and the passenger side wheel well. It was very tight. I couldn't wear my tech gloves so my hands got torn up. Removing the oil pan from the underside of the car and replacing an exposed oil regulator sounds alot easier to me. At least 9krpmrx8 made it sound easy. I guess time will tell. I ordered the mazmart kit tonight. I won't be installing it for a while being I just changed my oil last week before putting the car away for the Winter.

Give it a try. It sounded easy to me too. Honestly its a tight fit especially when reinstalling the omp with the Sohn adaptor. Alot of things look easy until you attempt them.

In reference to the question on the oil gumming up because of heat, oil flows more smoothly as its heated. But I do like your thinking. On the SOHN adapter you are using fresh oil only the entire time, BUT on the stock system your using dirty oil. Oil that already has carbon and combustion by product. So there is a possibility that your leaving behind deposits from oil thats already been cycled over and over.

im just going to pre mix and be done with it.
Too much "stuff".
But real good thread and I think on many accounts the op is right.
OD

PLEASE get it right..is it a Metering Oil Pump, that is MOP, not OMP, Oil does not Meter the Pump..:)

OMP

I was talking about Oh My Pump ! what have u been thinking ASH ? :lol:

OMP - Oil Metering Pump

Learn the use of the progressive participle.

The oil is metered, not the pump.

And before you all get in a tizzy about it being the "MOP" in the FSM, just think about all the other Engrish grammatical errors in the FSM.

Too much water around!..:scared:

MOP has been the official term used by the maker before most on here were even born, but you yanks know it all......:yelrotflm

Believe us and Mazda, before the TB there are atmospheric pressure, or you have a very-very clogged air filter.

Well the replacement lines aren't that expensive - what we need now is a DIY...

http://atkinsrotary.com/store/catalo...t-p-17186.html

http://atkinsrotary.com/store/catalo...r-p-17890.html

This would be a good midlife upgrade in conjunction with a seafoaming I should imagine.

Potatoes - Potatoes. Oh shit it doesn't work when you type it. :lol:

I still disagree Ayrton-- dont forget that there are also other lines that come from that site that are used as vacuum lines--the one to the sump/oil filler pipe for instance. The airflow is the same before the TB as it is behind the TB also.
Its a small thing anyway. I was just trying to understand out that system works exactly, but I gave up. I am just going to premix as if i dont have a mop/omp and keep a close watch on my plugs. Relying on the mop is too risky for me.

Just out of curiousity, what are you defining as engine failure and how is this related to clogged OMP system?

Well an eventual loss in compression if no oil is being injected due to failed oil injectors or clogged lines. Basically my lines were clogged and the oil injectors faulty so no oil was being injected. Had I not been premixing 1oz per gallon the apex seals would wear prematurely and resulting in a loss of compression.

Have you disassembled the engine and looked at the apex seals and the rotor housings in question?

No, the engine only has 25k on it and I have premixed since day one so on my particular engine I don't think any damage was done due to the amount I was premixing. But, but if I had not been premixing, then the apex seals would not have been receiving any lubrication. I have been reading and it appears that the oil injectors failing is not so uncommon. I'm not sure how different an FC or FD oil injector is from a S1 injector but I have read that they fail the vacuum test pretty often. and I know opinions vary on who we consider to be knowledgeable but Rotary Resurrection also stated he has seen them fail often.

This is just my theory, it's open for discussion. I'm all for learning.

Mazda updated the original part to B already

N3H1-14-660B
N3H1-14-670B
N3H1-14-680B
N3H1-14-690B

and we all know Mazda won't update their parts without reasons, either cost reduction (which usually means crap) and/or parts improvements. Lets hope its the latter.


Should I try to do the SS line or just get some stock replacements ? ... hmm decision decisions ... stock line is not "that" expensive imo ... hmm ....

I'm with you so far. So the oil injectors or lines are clogged and this leads to X which ultimately leads to loss of compression. Can you help me with the X's? Trying to understand your logic my friend. Please be as specific as you like.

How long do you suppose it would have taken for engine damage, low compression, or performance issues to evidence themselves?

May I address this point with my own experience(s)?
If so, I will post up later today/tonight as I have shipments to make and an insurance premium to pay so we can open the new shop this weekend. :)

If the lines are clogged and/or the injectors are faulty, there would be no lubrication to the apex seals other than whatever lubrication gasoline offers. No lubrication to the Apex seals means they wear out prematurely. I realize on the S1 Renny we are already short one oil injector and low OMP rates were initially blamed for failures and mazda adjusted that although that didn't really seem to help at all. At least that is my understanding.

Now this is the question of the day. 10,000 miles? 20,000 miles? I guess it would really depend on the driving conditions. I don't imagine no lubrication to the apex seals would be good on a long hot track day. But then I know that you have stated previously that you have driven with your SOHN reservoir empty and your engine is ok.

Always my friend. Can't wait to hear about the new shop too.

Wow. That is a MASSIVE misunderstanding of flow vs. pressure.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised since it is the same science - whether it is before or after the throttle body doesn't matter.

In any event, it is absolutely an atmo reference whether you agree or not.
The OMP, filler neck breather and JAB all need to see atmospheric pressure and nothing less or more.
You should measure it for yourself so that you aren't left behind should the information there be needed for a future project of yours.

EDIT - BTW, just because there is suction on the line doesn't mean it is referenced to vacuum. It just means it is creating a vacuum because where the line goes is at a lower pressure. The JAB is a good example of that.

If you are daily driving hitting 9k here and there you most likely wouldn't get any noticeable damage for quite some time.

It would just start wearing away on the housings and the seals until compression was so low it wouldn't hold idle.

There wouldn't be a dramatic breaking of the apex seal just a gradual wearing away until the apex seal reached its spring limit from housing damage and seal damage.

That's what I think at least.

Two questions please:

1. Can we say that your theory has the Apex Seals wearing out?

2. Does the title of your thread imply this may be the main reason why engines lose compression and go to the Mazda rebuild facility?

Seeking to understand. Thanks.

Good point shady but how the vehicle is driven also plays a contributing factor. Its not just how often the vehicle is driven.

Yea when I said daily driven I meant light and for medium to short distances...

Guess that doesn't apply to you road rage speed demons... lol.

1. Yes, I think that is safe to say that if the oil injectors are not injecting and the lines are clogged the the Apex seals will wear prematurely. Unless premixing is happening.

2. Does it? I am looking for discussion on the idea. I don't think it is the main reason for failures, I think there are a few reasons a series 1 engine rarely makes it over a 100k on the original engine. I personally think that many do not monitor oil consumption and would not even realize if their car was burning oil or not. If they have a situation where their OMP lines and/or injectors have failed, their engine would fail eventually do to the lack of lubrication to the apex seals.


I feel like I am repeating myself :lol:. Do you agree or disagree that if no oil is being injected that it would cause the engine to eventually fail quicker than a normally functioning engine?


Thanks :)

9krpmrx8 not that my opinion really amounts to anything but I totally agree with your theory. If oil was not needed to lubricate the internals such as the rotors, seals, and housings why would an oil metering pump be incorporated into the overall design. Furthermore why would Mazda have incorpoated another injection nozzle into the design for the series II. Not to mention the reflash to increase flow from the oil metering pump for the series I.

OEM Cheaper on-line from a Mazda Dealer.

N3H1-14-660B Tube $39.62
N3H1-14-670B Tube $39.62
N3H1-14-680B Tube $39.62
N3H1-14-690B Tube $39.62
N3H1-14-631B Nozzle $59.16ea

http://onlinemazdaparts.com/partloca...?siteid=214264

Mate, they have always been a B 'iteration' (to use the felons word), there has never been any other used on production S1's or any parts super-session for this one...:)

really? hmm

Cuz I see the Original part, A, and B

well of course I can only buy B now, just saying.

You are pretty much spot on with all your comments.

I am really surprise at the 'lack of knowledge' by someone who races and is telling us all about data and not to 'guess' anything without it (only when it suits).

I suggest owners go to their mechanics and ask, seeing they rebuild "so many" engines.

It has been my experience that most Racing Rotaries totally disconnect MOP or even S2 EMOP's, and add Oil to Fuel for lubrication only, but then again using Oil in fuel may be against Policy and Regulations at events and the teams may fail scrutineering by doing so...using oil in gas that is...or what we would call heavy pre-mixing.

Or perhaps they run both MOP's and Pre-Mixing?

But as Paul's (Mazmart) (where has he been lately??) engine builder supremo (Mr E), has relayed to us, the majority of Renesis that he has rebuilt has has abnormal wear of Apex Seals, and Eccentric Shaft Bearings...

For memory Mr E also did not like 5W20 oils period for ANY rotary, I wonder if he has changed his mind...another story.
;)

Most of you are probably unaware of this (I was too a few years ago). Mazda has a racer parts pricing program here in the States. Discounted pricing and super low shipment pricing. For example p/n N3H1-14-660B: $30.48 This is the first part number listed above or about a $9 savings.

The Mazda parts program is where some of you guys may end up one day if you go Club Racing or AutoXing. Most all Mazda Racers (not drivers) are aware of and enrolled in this program. There is no better pricing in the U.S. None. The pricing for pro drivers is quite a bit lower yet. Look into it or at least be more aware.

Link to the Mazda Racer program:

http://www.mazdamotorsports.com/registration.htm

Yeah, I know what you mean, and you can put an A into on-line search and it will go to a B, but, trust me , I don't want to go with ALL the boring reasons, basically pre-production parts ORDER's list may have said an A but when car first arrives (sold), parts are usually at distributor and the Numbers can change from Japan. They order the A because they were told so, but.....arrives.;)

This is MMC Japan Series 1 complete (final) Parts list, A never existed.
These are also S1 Exclusive Parts.

https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1294942296

Let see it again OD:

The oil nozzle receives the barometric pressure from the air hose to prevent the negative pressure from the engine being applied to the oil inlet. Also, a one-way check valve has been adopted to prevent oil from flowing out of the air hose side when the engine is under positive pressure.

https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1294947079


1 Air hose side
2 One-way check valve
3 Oil inlet
4 Oil outlet
5 Housing side

Between the trottle's butterfly valve and the engine is vacuum. But there is atmo pres between the air cleaner and the throttle's butterfly valve. If there would be vacuum at the MOP nozzle's air intake pipe (1), the engine suck's out more oil from the MOP (3) than that is metering. With the atmospheric pressure on the nozzle's air intake (1), the engine's vacuum only sucks (4) the metered oil amount (pushing by the weak pressure of the MOP) and air from the air hose side (1).

If I get a chance this weekend I will write something up, it's pretty straight forward if you are mechanically inclined. You just have to take your time and not get frustrated.