Possible New Renesis Engine Failure Theory?
 

Okay, rather than bump my thread on my OMP issue I figure this needed it own thread.

History:

My first engine was replaced at 22k, second at 96k. First saw no premix really and the second only for a pretty short period of time. Both saw 3,000 mile oil changes and regular maintenance otherwise as well.

My third and current motor has had the BHR Ignition, BHR Fuel PUMP, SOHN adapter, Catless midpipe, and has been premixed since break in.

Keep in mind that your OMP lines, oil injectors, etc. are all transferred from one motor to the next. So in my case, they were moved twice.

I actually noticed after some time that my second engine started to use less oil than it had previously (usually used about a quart every 3k) but after some research I determined that every engine seemed to be a bit diff due to driving habits. etc. So I didn't really worry about it too much. At that time, I commuting 70 miles a day, all highway. Well, I got divorced, moved a couple miles form work and my driving habits changed greatly. Then for the next two years I drove shorter distances but still noticed my oil consumption remained low. A while after that, my second engine lost compression.

Then I got my current (3rd) engine. In the beginning the 1 QT SOHN reservoir would empty fairly quickly and I was running about 1/2oz per gallon of premix. But then I noticed after a long trip that my SOHN reservoir level didn't seem to move at all. I checked the lines, the SOHN, etc. and all seemed well except a slight leak on the reservoir hose. No CEL for the OMP, nothing seemed out the ordinary. Either way, I started premixing 1oz per gallon just to be safe on my new motor.

The months went by, the SOHN reservoir use was still low. So, I talked to Richard Sohn and he told me a SOHN adapter has never failed so I considered replacing the OMP even though there were no CEL's, etc. I talked to some others here that I trust and still really didn't have an answer and didn't want to pay for a new OMP if I didn't need it. I wasn't in a rush because it was using some (very little) oil from the reservoir and I guessed that 1oz per gallon of premix in the gas should keep any damage to the seals from happening.

Well, finally I decided to suck it up and dig into it. I bought new OMP lines and oil injectors. I found that two of my OMP lines were clogged and basically falling apart as well. The rear oil injectors were filthy compared to the front and one failed the vacuum test.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5162/...eb00ec08_z.jpg

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5170/...61220144_z.jpg



So, basically my engine would have died eventually due to the lack of oil being injected had I not been premixing so heavy. My new theory :lol: is that many engines are dieing due to this and people are not even aware that this is the cause.

So if you do not monitor your oil consumption, you may be in trouble as your oil injectors and OMP lines deteriorate. It has also been noted also that an OMP can fail without triggering a CEL or putting the car in limp mode like it should.

So, for all of you with decent mileage, I suggest replacing your OMP lines and oil injectors as a preventative measure. But keep in mind that it is kind of a bitch to replace those items.

:)

Edit: Since Christmas, As of today, I have gone through a quart in 749 miles (includes road trip to my parents).

I removed and inspected mine when I installed the Sohn adapter. I removed the omp and lines and soaked the lines in degreaser for a couple days. This cleaned them up pretty good. But they really didn't look bad in the first place. Mine, fortunately, looked nothing like yours. But this is something that people should monitor. Clogged omp lines = no bueno!

Man, you are ambitious. This is not something I would do just to check things :lol:

For the price it's easier to just replace everything. I actually wish I could have done my injectors at that time but it was Christmas and I was low on funds. My fuel injectors have 120k on them as well so i am planning to get them cleaned and bench tested.

^^^ This is something Id love to do since I just got a new engine. Is it hard, im curious because I want to see how mine are doing with this new engine. I might have to take a trip down to ole' San Antonio and get some help.

At anyrate with your new OMP and lines did your Sohn start to move again? Did you start to use more oil?

Come on down. Oh, and yes, glad you said that.

Edit: Since Christmas, As of today, I have gone through a quart in 749 miles (includes road trip to my parents).

I was having a bitch of a time getting the omp and adapter to marry to the engine. So I unplugged the wiring harness from the omp and disconnected the feed lines so I could get everything to marry up properly. This project was a real pain in the ass. It would probably have been a hell of alot easier to do if the car was on a lift. I have pretty big hands and reaching some of the bolts to the omp was almost impossibe especially when reinstalling with the adapter. I pray to the gods that my omp never takes a crap on me.

Hmmm this is all very interesting. I'm thinking about adding the SOHN adapter this spring. My 2007 only has 31k Kilometers (~19k miles). I'll make sure to check those lines!

So, what would cause the oil lines to clog?

subbed...

Interesting . I don't rely on omp anymore anyway so ......

Oh ok so you didn't remove the OMP lines all together (you have to remove the intake manifold, etc.) Two of the OMP bolts I get from the top and one from the bottom. I have taken the SOHN and OMP off a couple of times so it is fairly easy. But I have pretty small hands so......

Not sure, on each of my engines, oil changes never went beyond 3,000 miles and for the last 20k or so they have seen nothing but pure, clean 2 stroke and Idemitsu.

OD said (have not verified) there is a check valve in the banjo fitting, maybe that was stuck closed? All I know is that I could blow through two of them and not the others. The lines were very dry rotted though after 120,000 miles so I'm not sure. I think it was a combination of the failed oil injector and the lines.

But comparing the new lines to my old ones was scary.

this was pretty astute on your part and i commend it. whenever i go home and get back to my car (i can't wait :() i think i'll check my lines and jets as you suggested. it's of particular concern to me since i had stopped premixing months before i parked the car last January.

well 9k, just so u know on the rx7 side some people replace their OMP lines every 50-100K.

cuz its still f-ing plastic, and overtime it will degrade, dirt builds up, clog, and finally failed(burst/leak)

some people just replaced them with stainless steel lines, those never dies.

im Almost at 60K miles, gonna look at those when it gets warmer (tonight its like 24 degrees)

How did you verify that the injector nozzles were, in fact, clogged?

I've never seen one get clogged. I have seen the check valve fail (that is pretty common), but it would only be an issue on a boosted motor.

Oil consumption should be very low on a highway trip. The commanded injection amount is very slight.
Even with the increased values I command in my AP tuning, I never see more than 1/8 of a quart per 300 miles of constant highway mileage.
I will go through 1/2 quart in 20 minutes on the track (about 15 miles, typically).

Can air get in these lines?
Is there a way to manually run the pump to see fluid moce through the lines?

Glad you agree with what I have been saying for years, IMO not so much the amount of Metered Oil (still important) but where it is being distributed...or more importantly where not.

As you and many know this is the first time since 1985 that there was not a middle in Rotor Housing Oil Nozzle in a fuel injected rotary.

Frankly, I don't know why Mazda continues to use a poxy thin inside diameter tubing for MOP oil supply to nozzles, it is basically the same stuff they used for 40 years , the clear tube that is.
It can become brittle (heat), blocked and just old...very quickly.

Yeah, I like nycgps idea (7 club) of SS lines.

The oil injector just failed the vacuum test. It was the lines that were clogged (two of them). I could blow through two of the lines and two I could not. I knew something was definitley up during my last run through the canyons. Typically I would use 1/2 quart during the first half of the day after driving pretty hard through the canyons.

There are check valves in the lines as well.

While replacing this stuff I was thinking the same thing. Why plastic tubes? SS lines would last forever.

Yeah I am wondering if the check valves in the two lines were stuck or if the actual line itself was clogged. But I couldn't blow through two of them.

yep, this is why im thinking maybe I should get some of those, cut & fit them myself.

Has any company made SS lines for the oil injectors? I've never tried to make them before, but I know it can be done.

what is the purpose of the check valve in the banjo fitting? Doesnt the oil "injector" have its own?
Seems like overkill to me?

By the way--good thread
OD

During the very first part of compression maybe air could get in oil lines, so they put in a check valve so only oil goes out, after reading this thread I looked at my lines, and noticed air bubbles. Also I switched to rp a while ago but the lines are still light brown, not dark like rp, an illiusion?

I am glad I am premixing

plug & play nope.

need to make your own.

I'm no fabricator but it seems like it would be simple to do this with SS brake line or something. Although I can see how some flexibility in the lines is needed for installation, etc.

some people use telfon tube, cuz its somewhat cheaper, just make sure its engine oil compatible + it can withstand 500f+ of heat.

My feeling is that deterioration of the lines has more to do with how the car is stored than how many miles it has done .... A garaged car in a mild climate and the lines will last the life of the car . Stored outside in a severe climate - they should be re[placed every x yrs .

As OD and others have stated the S1 has a Check Valve (I guess one way) on each line , the S2's don't (theres is in the Nozzle from memory).

Having sold and seen many (not S1, I own a set S2's), it is how they become brittle with age, obviously from heat, once old and hard it needs little movement to crack, split and break the tubing. Obviously if car is stored and or not used they are not going to become as brittle.;)

Mine were not cracked or brittle.

Aren't you lucky.

That's because you drive like a grandma :lol:

Pfffft you wish, Im gonna race you when I move there grandma!!!

Side note I did have 3 bad check valves and 4 clogged injectors, at the end of my rebuild only one was salvageable.

Also oil injectors get clogged often and easily. When you rebuild an engine its best to clean them out with some parts cleaner. After cleaning them inspect each one and toss the ones that fail the vacuum test. Thats per RR.

Oh shit, I better get my bottle filled then :) I also read that the oil injector failures are fairly common. It kind of sucks because it would pretty hard to know that they are not working properly.

yep I would point my finger at them as the main cause for engine failure. But then again what do I know, I just drive it and when it stops working I fix it.

Subbed

Yeah I definitley would not go without premix ever. And for you guys under warranty, getting remans, I would definitley pay to have the oil injectors and lines replaced during the install or at least tested. Having these installed with the engine out would have saved me a lot of time and agony. Especially considering I had a seized bolt in the UIM thanks to them not using anti seize when reinstalling it.

Ouch! I didn't use anti seize either though. I figured at 25 ftlbs with no contact to fluids I'd be ok.

I'm going to be installing my OMP over the weekend I think should be exciting.

Yeah the steel bolts in the aluminum LIM without anti seize is a bad idea. I was using a 1/4" rachet to remove them and one just sheered off. PIA.

You are installing a SOHN? or new OMP?

I was thinking of doing a DIY on vacuum testing the oil injectors but then I thought most people would probably not tackle that job so I decided not to bother. I was warned to not break the little vacuum block that feed the oil injectors and even though I was careful I still managed to break that. It too was very brittle. Damn Texas heat :lol:

Mine fell apart after each vacuum line I removed!!! Pain in my arse!

I'm installing the sohn. well actually I'm test fitting it then sending specs over to a blow mold guy to make me a container that will fit in the airpump housing.

now u guys just made me wanna get to my OMP lines and injectors asap ...

If you have the energy to do that DIY, it would be much appreciated. Even if most of us would not do it ourselves, a lot of us would benefit from the knowledge. I've learned a lot about our cars by reading DIYs that I doubt I'll ever do myself. As well as the ones that I've done or am planning to do when the time comes.

Ken

I have some spare SS lines. From when I made my clutch line. I will need to get in there and see exactly what size they are though and make sure they will work. Once it warms up I will get on it and if you decide to do a DIY for the testing of the injectors, I will add on the DIY for making your own lines.

The only issue I can see is that you can't see through the SS lines so you wont be able to monitor inside them. Which would mean you would need to make certain say every time you change your oil, to check the lines for blockage.

Some people rebuild with this: http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/GSDRVS...00000168820027

I vote sticky for this thread

You need to get in there and look with the UIM off. I don't think you quite understand how all this is packaged when everything is buttoned up. I am talking hard line here, not SS flex lines like you would use for brake lines or a clutch line. The diameter of these lines would have to be very, very small. There would also be no way to check these lines on any regular basis. Plus you would have to figure a way to incorporate the factory banjo fittings that go around the oil injector and on the OMP.

Redoing these lines would take some real engineering. The lines would probably need to be bent and positioned the exact way the stock lines are. The factory setup is actually very good, but to last past 100k the material just doesn't hold up (in Texas anyway).

I'm definitely going to premix when I get my 8. There are too many things that seem like they easily fail in the oil injection system to take the chance.

Seems kind of like a bad design? Or am I just being paranoid?

just put some heat shield stuff between them and the engine---they can get real hot next to the alternator also.
The oil nozzles have a check valve in them---that is why I was wondering why the heck were there check valves in the banjo fitting to?
I really dont understand how it works. The omp does not put that much pressure on the oil it pumps.
Also to open the banjo fitting check valve I had to push back toward the omp. To tell the truth I didnt check it pushing toward the oil nozzle.
Again why is there a vacuum line to the nozzle? Maybe it is to ensure quick closing of the oil nozzle? But should the oil nozzle ever be complety closed?
What happens if you remove the vacuum there?
What would happen if you removed the banjo fitting check valve?

This is getting really interesting.
It may be better to totally premix?

maybe this is why the S2 don't have that stupid valve, cuz its totally useless.

I think 100k is pretty good for these lines. I like the idea of the heat shield both for the LIM and the lines. I might fab something up with some cardboard to see sizing bad purchase some of that fancy heat resistant paneling.