Ash you know I have always appreciated your input mate. Please dont stop!

As to the wedge shaped side seal--what I am thinking, and I may be wrong, is that the wedge shape does transmit forces in a different way to the side seal springs? The seals/rotor do move so does, if it does, affect the springs?
As to why Mazda changed the design, from what I have read , its because they knew (from 1995) that the side port exhaust would cause trouble with carbon deposits in the SS and they came up with a new design to fix that problem.
You know what will be interesting? A couple guys on this forum are running the lower cr rotors. It will be interesting to see what their old style SS will do with the side port exhaust.

On a different note, but relavant?, i removed the passenger side oil cooler thermostat last night.
I wanted to see at what temperature mine was opening. So I did the old boiling water /candy thermometer test. At 212F it still wasnt functioning!!!!!!!
Did it go bad? I dont know, must have, but I will be shimming that sucker now.
If I have to deal with overcooling I guess this I will just block the cooler from the airflow. That has worked for me before.
I still would like to see what others , if anyone, are seeing for temps of the oil when it leaves the engine? Anyone?
OD

Absolute misunderstanding.
The only thing that sees atmospheric pres is the air intake side of the MOP's nozzles. The oil pipes from the MOP to the nozzles (banjoed to the nozzles) gets the oil by the MOP's week oil pressure which is generated by the MOP itself. The engine oil get in the MOP from the engine, by the engine's oil pressure, but it has almost nothing effect on how much is the metered oil amount by the MOP. The oil from the MOP's nozzles get in the chamber by the engine's vacuum, and by the air from the nozzle's air pipe (atmo pres) which helps to travel (and spray) the oil in to the chambers. Like I said earlier, the nozzles same like little carburators but travel air/oil mix, instead air/gasoline. Think about the TSB of the wrong intake hose replacement parts, when the nozzles air pipe was blanked. What was the effect? More oil consumption, because without air the engine sucks out more oil from the MOP, than that is metered by it.

Otherwise when we talk about better rotor's cooling by higher oil pres, it is mean that the excentric shaft's oil nozzles - inside the rotors - travel/spray more oil amount, that cools better the rotors and it's parts.

Did it not move?
You know that the oil line into the cooler's rows are always open, but under 195F the bypass line is opened too, so the oil will choose the less restrictive bypass passage line. When the thermostat closes the bypass line of the cooler, the oil most have to flow across the rows of the cooler. But the thermostat valve must have to move when you take it to boiling waters, so it is failed.

Thanks for the pics Doc but I am looking for a comparison of the new design to the old. ASH8, thanks for the info, I appreciate it. I would not know about a lot of the changes if it were not for you.

OD, that sucks, time for the RB lines and a real oil thermostat worked into the system somehow. Or you could ditch the factory coolers and go with a big single cooler :) How about one big oil cooler on the drivers side and move your secondary radiator to the passenger side oil cooler location?

I got a great deal on my 28" Fluidyne oil cooler so you don't have to spend a grip.

I tried the same trick years ago with the same result . Just ended up deciding that it didn't work that way :dunno:

my thermostat didnt move at all when the water was boiling and my passenger side cooler was alway a good bit cooler to the laser thermometer than the drivers side. Call me paranoid, but Im thinking my oil coming from out of the engine is higher than I think it is.

later on I will work on a pic of the old design

WOW..you really took exception to that comment ;)

I was just commenting that you were simplifiying things by giving us Mazda's diluted tech speek that went in the 2009 Highlights manual

I would hope you have some more info that you could/would share..even privately.

9K I am looking for but can't find a diagram for the 12A motor, but the 13B thats in the RX7. Are we sure it has different side seals? I know it was a 135HP motor.

I have very limited time here. I'm skimming through Eric's comments and Jeff's and agreeing with what I've had time to read. We have taken apart a couple dozen higher mileage units including some with well over 100k not to mention having built them for racing as well. There are all sorts of interesting findings although Mr Engman does not find the process as entertaining and enlightening as I:dunno: . He was walking by yesterday and I showed him the pictures of the metering nozzles. He commented that there 'could be' some spitting taking place at the metering orifice (Housing) due to an apex seal not sealing properly and did not think the picture showed any evidence of metering failure necessarily. He glanced in passing so no need for panic.

As Eric said, these engines create a bunch of carbon which impairs proper function in more than one way. Apart from apex seal wear we also have apex seal sag due to temperature and material. We have seen premature main bearing wear and failure but this is not the reason Renesis engines usually end up needing replacement on the street driven cars.

Hopefully next week I will have time to comment further and pick the old man's brain as well.

Quickly, I am a fan of the Sohn adapter from what little I know about it. I wish Mazda was using a separate source for metering with a capacity that would match the longest recommended oil change interval. A level light would be perfect as well.

P

about time slacker:)
Hopefully I will be calling you this week Paul.
OD

Thanks Paul, I was getting a little worried :)

Renesis side seals have a keystone cutout

This will help allot

http://www.rebuildingrotaryengines.c...renesis-rotors

^ Thanks bro, that's great!

Yea man I actually referenced pineapples videos, the rebuild dvd and the engine rebuild book.

I needed all of them.

There are some quirky things that aren't covered in the book and the rebuild dvd is for older 13b's. So I really needed all info from all sides to complete it.

I'd like to get my hands on another 6port that needs rebuilding though... I got the itch.

ok but we are talking about RX7 vs RX8. I already noted the keystone side seal on the RX8 motor. What I am saying is that are we certain that the RX7 13B doesn't have the same seal? I believe it does.

It does not.

If you watch the video he states "they have changed the design completely"

when I ordered my cut to fit seals Mazdatrix had tons of regular seals but only 12 of the of the renesis seals. I botched one up and had to get a precut seal, which had a massive gap compared to what we were cutting down to size with.

But according to the guy who posted earlier His team didn't notice a reliability change in race engines with different side seal gap.

Anyways so yes there is a difference.

Yeah I sure wish someone would come out with a Renesis rebuild DVD and a Tuning DVD. I would pay for that in a heart beat.

Thanks, I thought there were some differences, I'm just trying to understand why the change and what changed exactly.

I dont think anyone actually knows that but the Mazda R&D department.

Most of us will just speculate, it obviously serves a point becuase they went to allot of trouble designing that.

Not only is the seal cut that way but the rotor itself is, you cant put this things in upside down they go in one way only. It might be a structural thing due to the fact that they are now closer to the edge.

Again just speculation.

Or maybe the R&D team wanted even more triangular shapes on the car then there already are!!

It is actually pretty straight-forward mechanics as to why they are wedge-shaped now.

Im not gonna quote that so you can fix it. lol.

I build things and fix them I don't design.

Can you throw any layman's term explanation my way?

the new shape as I have stated before was to decrease the amount of carbon buildup on the side seals etc due to the side port configuation. That is what I have read per Mazda papers.
OD

Just for the sake of argument.

I am going to say that the placement of the side seal is for carbon buildup.

The keystone itself is buried in the rotor the only bit that sticks out is flat and resembles older 13b seals. ie the wedge cutout sees no action out of the rotor.

*Edit I realize Mazdas paperwork says this, I'm just trying to get a conversation going.

http://www.motorera.com/dictionary/pics/a/apex.jpg

that apex seal looks like a piece of toast

http://www.groomgroove.com/images/toast.gif

Sunofabitch.

LOL 9k... we've been talking about the side seal not the apex seal...

that "corner seal" thing is wrong.

Thats part of the Apex seal. Mazda created like that because its better for start up sealing.

the whole graph is based on the FD's 3 piece RX-7 seal design. Our engine uses a 2 pc design. same thing for FC

the graph is ugly, however :lol:

This is worth reading several times to raise the quality of the content on this thread. May I ask the kind favor of thinking twice before asking any questions that may appear poorly researched or rudimentary. Trust me, more smart people will comment on the topic when it doesn't get killed with entry level questions. There is a lot of good information in this article. Read it several times. Again, the kind favor of vomiting all over this thread with the info some people might only be thinking about for the first time. Keep this thread pure and value added.

http://www.rotarydevelopment.net/Rot...790_Rotary.pdf

Side Seal

Also note the keystone shape its not a very dramatic angle is quite gradual.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._1189429_n.jpg

120k rotor

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._1983334_n.jpg

good stuff !

I read the Japanese version years ago, the Japanese version has a bit more detail, but this is good enough :)

I want to freaking laugh at this part.

I guess that didn't work out so well. hahaha

Excellent!! So the keystone shape changes the clearance of the side seal to prevent carbon buildup which would create a stuck side seal.

Why couldn't someone say that 10 pages ago?

because ... thought people who came into this thread "should" know these stuff ! :rollingla

Pfft...

Facts:

Faulty oil injectors can and will lead to premature engine failure.

These oil injectors are prone to failure but will never completely stop flowing.

The largest contributor to engine malfunction is carbon buildup.

The omp injects old engine oil into the combustion chamber to reduce heat and lubricate. One is a by product of another

By injecting old dirty engine oil in that is not really meant to be burnt it creates more carbon.


Conclusion:

Rotaries are ticking time bombs.


Options:

Buy a sohn adapter and run some 2 cycle oil in it.

Make sure your oil injectors are functional by performing a vacuum test on them.

Keep up with your maintenance

Purchase a set of BHR coils.

Because I am sure that the BHR coils (not knocking BHR) has anything to do with the oil system.

a lot of things can cause premature engine failure :Peace:

I guess

the largest contributor to engine failure is their OWNER ! :rollingla

same thing.

most carbon came from the gas you pump.


Everything fails. Not just Rotary


not ideal for most owners.

see #3 :)

not ideal for most owners.

See #3, again. :)

Im ok with stock coils. :)

I just said BHR becuase most people don't know what a d585 coil pack is.

I made my own system with the help of BHR...

Geesh, how can I not have seen this before somewhere? Thanks Eric.

Thanks dude, now I have it. Duh! Posts deleted as to try an not confuse others :lol:

SHEESH ... It looks like all that carbon may have increased compression to 10.1:1!

Was this a 4-port or 6-port out of curiosity? Ever sea foamed?

6 port bought it with 94k seafoamed it 6 times. Used MMO as a premix for 15k used idemitsu for 5 or 7k before the rebuild.

Compression was shite, which is why I had to do the rebuild!!

Sea foam not gonna remove the carbon completely, its mainly trying to "unstuck" a stucked springs

thats quite a lot of cleaning.

how much did the rebuild cost you? at least the rotor looks reusable (can't tell other parts)

Was this the one Jackson, I archived years ago...:smoker:

the one I read was in total japanese.

I don't understand it 100%, but with some help from a friend, I was be able to understand it (even tho I forgot some of it by now)

sometimes when u wanna translate something, you can't always do it at 100%. but this is good enough :)

Hi Eric ,

I have a question trying to understand your findings:

You are claiming because you actually have seen it in a lot of open ups that under race conditions WITHOUT OMP BUT WITH PREMIX you get extremely wearing of side seals/springs.

Why PREMIX cannot lubricate the Side Seals/Springs whereas the OMP does.

Thanks

RotaryPilot,

It is my belief that after sharing our repeated and consistant findings for about 16 engine failures that a few things are happening. This is speculative as it is very hard to MEASURE to confirm. Our spring failure mode is defined as a very thing spring thickness at the peaks and valleys. This is viewable to the naked eye. These are the points of contact where the side seal spring (a) touches the bottom of the side seal gland, (b) where the spring contacts the bottom of the side seal. Witness wear marks can be see on the spring, bottom of the seal and in the bottom of the gland.

My belief after sharing our findings with many smart race engine builders with many, many years of experience (and I talked to quite a few of them and sent them parts for analysis) is that this was happening WITHOUT the OMP

-The side seal was chattering on the iron surface as it made pass and pass after pass
-This may have generated more heat and the heat aided deterioration of the spring strength
-The chattering had an oscillating effect which led to spring travel up and down. I would presume that the spring in there was vibrating up and down at some crazy frequency which is impossible to measure
-.93 Lambda (making 220+ rwhp for us on a dynojet) added additional combustion heat (we would see approx 1,700F with .93) and this heat combined with the exhaust travel over the rotors chamfered edge furthur added additional heat to the side seal/spring area. Failures of the spring were not just isolated to that area chafered area exactly under the exhaust travel.
-Continued operation of the motor would lead to spring thinning to the point where it would break at the springs peaks or valleys thinnest location and this would cantilever the side seal and this would clip the port. This would snap the brittle side seal (usually about 1/3 of the way from the leading rotational edge of the rotor. This was ugly as the partial seal would fly around in the motor and scratch or gouge the hard parts which ofter require replacing.
-Intercepting this spring break by noticing when the motor was losing power avoided catatrophic failure (big $) which would require the car to be retired and a motor swap.

WITH the OMP and .89 Lambda
-EGT's were lowered by approx 100 over the .93 and no OMP
-Spring thickness rate loss was dramatically decreased and has allowed us to get less than 1% power loss after 20+ hour of WOT use in a racing environment. We have run the OMP on only 1 engine thus far for about 22 hours (same motor as above) before we pulled it apart. The springs showed wear and may have gone another 5 or 10 hours. We pulled it apart in a preemptive gesture to find out what was happening. Currently we are running our second motor with OMP at .89 Lambda to see if we can duplicate the results. Running 20+ hours on a race engine is expensive. Crew, fuel and tires (mostly tires) all add up. I prefer rubber that is most like that which we race on. Currently we use the R80 Radial Hoosier slick and these get about 3 honest hours of use. 888 Toyo about 2 hours or 3-4 heat cycles before it falls off. R6 acts like a different tire altogether but will last about 6-8 hours. To get the R6 to get the same grip as a Slick you have a run a pretty big tire and this is farther away from duplicating the spec tire we will race with in World Challenge next year: Pirelli slick hard compound. These tires run $1,300 a set and last a freakin hour.

My limited experience and lots and lots of $ have resulted in the belieft that the OMP squirters are located such so that they same the side seals which are getting new failure modes BECAUSE OF THE SIDE EXHAUST DESIGN

Up to 3 ounces of premix/gal were used with no OMP and the failure mode continued. My gut says this mist via the fuel injectors did not directly get placed where the OMP squirters were aimed. The premix was exactly limited to where the injectors squirt and either misted or wetted the intake ports and wherever that fuel charge travels when pushed/pulled during the intake process is where it landed and provided its lubricative (is that a word?) benefits.

This is my belief. I suspect some Mazda engineers who are probably retired by now could confirm it. Hope that answered your question.

The bottom line is we hooked the OMP back up and it solved our rapid spring deterioration and allows our motors to live much, much longer and sustain consistantly high power levels.

Note: We feed our OMP with the rotary aviation remote feed (which blocks off the pull of crankcase motor oil) and allows us to use a two stroke product. The OMP is not connected to any map and runs mechanically. Current rate of use is approx 1 qt per hour of WOT operation (give or take 10%). Turning up the manual dial on the OMP increases the rate of oil consumption and lowers the EGT by about 25F but limits car operation to about 1/2 hour (not long enough for us to run a full tank of fuel for an enduro or our 50 minute World Challenge races (plus parade and cool down laps). We have our OMP set so it runs approx a full tank of fuel at .89 Lambda.

Thanks a lot Eric for your answer ! Great analysis !

Very good info man! Thanks for all the input Eric. I'm reading that PDF you put up right now.

Definitely needs to get stickied I think.