My engine rebuild.
05-28-2010, 02:18 AM
#201
kevin@rotaryresurrection
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The metal rings themselves normally are fine to reuse even on 125k mile engines. There is a shiny lip...the thinner/narrower the shiny part, the better the ring is. I like to see them about 1mm or less in width for the shiny area, give or take. They are quite difficult to properly measure for the average person so a visual estimation is normally all that is necessary. The rubber/viton inserts do most of the sealing, so if you didn't have a smoke/oil burning issue prior to teardown, you won't be any worse off reusing the metal scraper rings. The exception to this is that they are easily damaged during installation into the rotor with new o-rings, so if you crack one you are up the creek. When I first practiced building I used to break every other one until I learned the tricks...of course this was using aftermarket o-rings that were (at the time) a little too fat for the application, too, so it mostly wasn't my technique anyway.
05-28-2010, 02:19 AM
#202
I have a question Shady.
Did the racing beat porting templates have you cut the intake port into the compression ring sealing area? I mean if you look at this pic you can see the wear mark for the outer ring.
As in the pic. I can't say one way or another whether this is good or bad. I see that it did not cut into the Oil Control Ring area. Seeing how it's on the intake side and not the compression side I would assume it will make no difference.
Did the racing beat porting templates have you cut the intake port into the compression ring sealing area? I mean if you look at this pic you can see the wear mark for the outer ring.
As in the pic. I can't say one way or another whether this is good or bad. I see that it did not cut into the Oil Control Ring area. Seeing how it's on the intake side and not the compression side I would assume it will make no difference.
05-28-2010, 02:25 AM
#203
The metal rings themselves normally are fine to reuse even on 125k mile engines. There is a shiny lip...the thinner/narrower the shiny part, the better the ring is. I like to see them about 1mm or less in width for the shiny area, give or take. They are quite difficult to properly measure for the average person so a visual estimation is normally all that is necessary. The rubber/viton inserts do most of the sealing, so if you didn't have a smoke/oil burning issue prior to teardown, you won't be any worse off reusing the metal scraper rings. The exception to this is that they are easily damaged during installation into the rotor with new o-rings, so if you crack one you are up the creek. When I first practiced building I used to break every other one until I learned the tricks...of course this was using aftermarket o-rings that were (at the time) a little too fat for the application, too, so it mostly wasn't my technique anyway.
I did get new scrapper rings with the rebuild kit so those are handled.
And I had no oil control failure that I could see prior to tear down. I have pics of the rings but I left the camera in the car.
05-28-2010, 02:34 AM
#204
I have a question Shady.
Did the racing beat porting templates have you cut the intake port into the compression ring sealing area? I mean if you look at this pic you can see the wear mark for the outer ring.
As in the pic. I can't say one way or another whether this is good or bad. I see that it did not cut into the Oil Control Ring area. Seeing how it's on the intake side and not the compression side I would assume it will make no difference.
Did the racing beat porting templates have you cut the intake port into the compression ring sealing area? I mean if you look at this pic you can see the wear mark for the outer ring.
As in the pic. I can't say one way or another whether this is good or bad. I see that it did not cut into the Oil Control Ring area. Seeing how it's on the intake side and not the compression side I would assume it will make no difference.
Guess there is only one way to find out now!'
I'm 90% sure it will be fine.
But there is that 10% dangling in my face.
05-28-2010, 02:56 AM
#205
If you'll notice there are two rings visible on the cast iron. The outer one (in red) is the compression ring. The inner one is the outer oil control ring. You did not cut into the outer oil control ring surface. Actually if you look to the left you can see the wear marks from all three rings. Inner oil control ring, outer oil control ring, compression ring. From the inside to the outside. As long as you did not cut into the outer oil control ring wear area you should be OK.
Last edited by Easy_E1; 05-28-2010 at 03:01 AM.
05-28-2010, 04:01 AM
#206
Super Moderator
Ash, I called the guy MM referred to and he verified that he CAN get the single rings, not a pair, and directly from Mazda but he also explained the PITA it would cause for Mazda and the negative politics that may result from it. Mazda has their established processes and they will, although very rarely, stray from them for the right person. He also verified that the dealer network has dictates they must follow. Thus, you are making MM's point for him.
MazdaTrix could probably also get the separate rings but they would subject themselves to the same bitch-slapping as our associate Glen would, should he press the issue.
BHR does the same thing. I will rarely stray from my established processes for someone (because they have been established for good reasons) and it largely depends on how I feel or how busy I am at the moment one requests it. BHR also has a few dealers of our product in other countries and we have agreements that, if violated will result in their no longer retailing our product. We take very good care of our dealers and have their profitability as a foremost concern but we hafta have rules to ensure co-operation.
MazdaTrix could probably also get the separate rings but they would subject themselves to the same bitch-slapping as our associate Glen would, should he press the issue.
BHR does the same thing. I will rarely stray from my established processes for someone (because they have been established for good reasons) and it largely depends on how I feel or how busy I am at the moment one requests it. BHR also has a few dealers of our product in other countries and we have agreements that, if violated will result in their no longer retailing our product. We take very good care of our dealers and have their profitability as a foremost concern but we hafta have rules to ensure co-operation.
I had it confirmed by two US Mazda Dealers, and they do not Sell or have ever sold OCR's Individually or Singularly...what an unauthorized seller of Mazda parts originally purchased from a Mazda Dealer does is his business, if he chooses to Split a Pair..it is his choice, I can't see it profitable as what are the chances of selling the other One.
With respect, as much as I like you Charles and BHR, Mazmart and Mazdatrix, and Mazdawhatever are not Authorized Dealers.
Like all things there are many imitators in the Auto Industry...which is fine.
Unlike some I don't TAR everyone with the same brush...there are Excellent Mazda Parts Dealers and hopeless ones, just like ANY business.
In most cases the Retail prices charged from the above for new Genuine Mazda made and labeled Parts are more expensive than what can be bought on-line direct from a Mazda Parts Dealer.
I can put up Many examples if you wish, but I won't out of respect for Paul and Yourself.
You are Vendors and this is what makes the world (forum) go around.
From the very original 0820-23-180C OCR used in 10A's, 12A's and now supersedes to the latest used in the RENESIS (in other words for the past 40 years the OCR's are exactly the same) are listed and sold as 4 pairs to make an Engine SET 8.
This from a US Dealer I know..
Mazda (NAO Parts) has an agreement with the dealers to not sell to the public and the dealers agree to not buy "seconds". Sometimes the manufacturers of these
parts attempt to sell direct to the dealer, bypassing Mazda NAO.
Although he believes MNAO or someone that works in Parts there are "Back-dooring" Dealers with the Trade selling of Genuine Parts .They (Dealers) are trying to get solid evidence to throw back at MNAO....In other words Honor the above agreement.
05-28-2010, 10:03 AM
#207
If you'll notice there are two rings visible on the cast iron. The outer one (in red) is the compression ring. The inner one is the outer oil control ring. You did not cut into the outer oil control ring surface. Actually if you look to the left you can see the wear marks from all three rings. Inner oil control ring, outer oil control ring, compression ring. From the inside to the outside. As long as you did not cut into the outer oil control ring wear area you should be OK.
05-28-2010, 10:11 AM
#208
Id prefer it if we can leave the oil control ring debate alone at this point 
. Its been beaten to death and Id prefer this thread be useful instead of arguing over and over.
I will say this though. When I call up the dealership to price side seals and the Mazda factory trained parts man asks me what color I want them in, I get a little worried. Then I have to explain to him how the rotary works and he finally figures it out.
I stay away from dealers especially on high performance cars. I have always gone to specialty shops if I couldn't do the work myself.
And with that the oil control ring argument is over!
Lets get back to my rebuild!!! We are doing a clean up of the garage and getting a 8' table assembly will begin today. Pics will be up tonight.
. Its been beaten to death and Id prefer this thread be useful instead of arguing over and over. I will say this though. When I call up the dealership to price side seals and the Mazda factory trained parts man asks me what color I want them in, I get a little worried. Then I have to explain to him how the rotary works and he finally figures it out.
I stay away from dealers especially on high performance cars. I have always gone to specialty shops if I couldn't do the work myself.
And with that the oil control ring argument is over!
Lets get back to my rebuild!!! We are doing a clean up of the garage and getting a 8' table assembly will begin today. Pics will be up tonight.
Last edited by shadycrew31; 05-28-2010 at 10:14 AM.
05-28-2010, 11:48 AM
#210
oh yea I mean all take all those pointers I can get!! FSM is my guiding light, I'll let you know how it goes.
I was speaking towards the debate on dealerships and who to get them from and if they can be purchased separately. blah blah blah.
I was speaking towards the debate on dealerships and who to get them from and if they can be purchased separately. blah blah blah.
05-28-2010, 04:04 PM
#211
Ray: "Be careful. Those things are sharp."
MM: "OK."
Ray: "Don't run your finger across it. Use another ring to seat it in the groove."
MM: "OK."
Ray: "It'll slice you and you won't even feel it."
MM: "OK! <<sliiik>> ****.."
05-28-2010, 09:06 PM
#214
Super Moderator
.
I will say this though. When I call up the dealership to price side seals and the Mazda factory trained parts man asks me what color I want them in, I get a little worried. Then I have to explain to him how the rotary works and he finally figures it out.
Lets get back to my rebuild!!! We are doing a clean up of the garage and getting a 8' table assembly will begin today. Pics will be up tonight.
I will say this though. When I call up the dealership to price side seals and the Mazda factory trained parts man asks me what color I want them in, I get a little worried. Then I have to explain to him how the rotary works and he finally figures it out.
Lets get back to my rebuild!!! We are doing a clean up of the garage and getting a 8' table assembly will begin today. Pics will be up tonight.
There are 4 different sizes available (made) by Mazda.
So you would have either on your rotor..
F, G, H, I (N3Z1-11-C10D)
J,K,L,M (N3Z2-11-C10D)
N, O, P, Q (N3Z3-11-C10D)
R,S,T, U (N3Z4-11-C10D)
I am sure Others will give advise on what to do (some prefer filling down to fix closer to Corner Seals that Factory Specs), I have my view.
WHAT has Changed are the Side Seal SPRINGS..Even in 2010 Series II Renesis Engines.
Mazda have Modified the SS Springs...and Yes they will Fit ALL RX-8's.
If you can I would use this Latest SS Springs as many have been known to separate or break and become TWO.
Latest Side Seal Part Number..
N3H1-11-C17B (12)
(Old SS Springs are N3H1-11-C17A
05-29-2010, 01:46 AM
#215
Your WS Manual should say what size recognition of the Side Seal can be determined by the Stamp on the Rotor, you are then meant to order the Side Seal according to this single alpha letter stamp.
There are 4 different sizes available (made) by Mazda.
So you would have either on your rotor..
F, G, H, I (N3Z1-11-C10D)
J,K,L,M (N3Z2-11-C10D)
N, O, P, Q (N3Z3-11-C10D)
R,S,T, U (N3Z4-11-C10D)
I am sure Others will give advise on what to do (some prefer filling down to fix closer to Corner Seals that Factory Specs), I have my view.
WHAT has Changed are the Side Seal SPRINGS..Even in 2010 Series II Renesis Engines.
Mazda have Modified the SS Springs...and Yes they will Fit ALL RX-8's.
If you can I would use this Latest SS Springs as many have been known to separate or break and become TWO.
Latest Side Seal Part Number..
N3H1-11-C17B (12)
(Old SS Springs are N3H1-11-C17A
There are 4 different sizes available (made) by Mazda.
So you would have either on your rotor..
F, G, H, I (N3Z1-11-C10D)
J,K,L,M (N3Z2-11-C10D)
N, O, P, Q (N3Z3-11-C10D)
R,S,T, U (N3Z4-11-C10D)
I am sure Others will give advise on what to do (some prefer filling down to fix closer to Corner Seals that Factory Specs), I have my view.
WHAT has Changed are the Side Seal SPRINGS..Even in 2010 Series II Renesis Engines.
Mazda have Modified the SS Springs...and Yes they will Fit ALL RX-8's.
If you can I would use this Latest SS Springs as many have been known to separate or break and become TWO.
Latest Side Seal Part Number..
N3H1-11-C17B (12)
(Old SS Springs are N3H1-11-C17A
Yea I know all that I got the cut to fit ones from Mazdatrix. Once I finally got the pricing from the dealer Mazdatrix was still $14 cheaper per precut seal.
So Instead I decided to get cut to fit saving me another $10 per side seal.
The point of my story was the parts guy didnt know what a side seal was.
05-29-2010, 01:49 AM
#216
The best part is, when I almost amputated my thumb with one of these damn things, it was about 20 seconds after this conversation:
Ray: "Be careful. Those things are sharp."
MM: "OK."
Ray: "Don't run your finger across it. Use another ring to seat it in the groove."
MM: "OK."
Ray: "It'll slice you and you won't even feel it."
MM: "OK! <<sliiik>> ****.."
Ray: "Be careful. Those things are sharp."
MM: "OK."
Ray: "Don't run your finger across it. Use another ring to seat it in the groove."
MM: "OK."
Ray: "It'll slice you and you won't even feel it."
MM: "OK! <<sliiik>> ****.."
05-29-2010, 02:01 AM
#217
Quick super relevant question. Can anyone describe how the oil squirts work? Is it a check valve.
My issue is that when I blow on the end where the vacuum would go no air comes out except one of them. so now I'm wondering if that one is where all my caked on oil is coming from?
If I blow on the end that the oil comes out of it goes out of the oil feed areas and not the vacuum. however when I blow on the suspected faulty one air comes out of the vacuum line as well.
Sorry I couldn't sound more intelligent with my question I'm tired as usual.
My issue is that when I blow on the end where the vacuum would go no air comes out except one of them. so now I'm wondering if that one is where all my caked on oil is coming from?
If I blow on the end that the oil comes out of it goes out of the oil feed areas and not the vacuum. however when I blow on the suspected faulty one air comes out of the vacuum line as well.
Sorry I couldn't sound more intelligent with my question I'm tired as usual.
05-29-2010, 02:24 AM
#218
Super Moderator
Yea I know all that I got the cut to fit ones from Mazdatrix. Once I finally got the pricing from the dealer Mazdatrix was still $14 cheaper per precut seal.
So Instead I decided to get cut to fit saving me another $10 per side seal.
The point of my story was the parts guy didnt know what a side seal was.
So Instead I decided to get cut to fit saving me another $10 per side seal.
The point of my story was the parts guy didnt know what a side seal was.
Their site says "Use these when installing Renesis rotors in early motors".
Yes, as far as what dealers know, most comes down to "experience"...the guy
may have only been working in parts for a few year, weeks or few days.
It is not a high paying job, nor do you require any mechanical qualifications, the
parts guys next to a car washer (detailer) is the least thought of worker in any dealership and paid the least.
Many never get to understand the workings of a rotary because they No longer "repair them", they buy in rebuilds.
Last edited by ASH8; 05-29-2010 at 02:45 AM.
05-29-2010, 02:58 AM
#220
Got the Cheaper You Cut to Fit Side Seals...Wonder where they are made?, are they still the 'Tapered Style Profile' like the OEM's?
Their site says "Use these when installing Renesis rotors in early motors".
Yes, as far as what dealers know, most comes down to "experience"...the guy
may have only been working in parts for a few year, weeks or few days.
It is not a high paying job, nor do you require any mechanical qualifications, the
parts guys next to a car washer (detailer) is the least thought of worker in any dealership and paid the least.
Many never get to understand the workings of a rotary because they No longer "repair them", they buy in rebuilds.
Their site says "Use these when installing Renesis rotors in early motors".
Yes, as far as what dealers know, most comes down to "experience"...the guy
may have only been working in parts for a few year, weeks or few days.
It is not a high paying job, nor do you require any mechanical qualifications, the
parts guys next to a car washer (detailer) is the least thought of worker in any dealership and paid the least.
Many never get to understand the workings of a rotary because they No longer "repair them", they buy in rebuilds.
I'm not trying to attack you I'm just simply stating I prefer going to people who know what they are talking about. If mazdatrix uses these side seals on their renesis builds and mazda doesn't even rebuild their own engines, who's advice and parts do you think I'm going to go with?
No Idea where they are made all I know is allot of people use them and they work. I like the idea of being able to make sure my side seal is within spec after I cut it down. versus going with a letter code with the possibility that it is out of spec and having to deal with all of that.
05-29-2010, 03:12 AM
#223
Super Moderator
I'm not trying to attack you I'm just simply stating I prefer going to people who know what they are talking about. If mazdatrix uses these side seals on their renesis builds and mazda doesn't even rebuild their own engines, who's advice and parts do you think I'm going to go with?
No Idea where they are made all I know is allot of people use them and they work. I like the idea of being able to make sure my side seal is within spec after I cut it down. versus going with a letter code with the possibility that it is out of spec and having to deal with all of that.
No Idea where they are made all I know is allot of people use them and they work. I like the idea of being able to make sure my side seal is within spec after I cut it down. versus going with a letter code with the possibility that it is out of spec and having to deal with all of that.
Mazda US does do rebuilds, just not at Dealer level.
Does your Mazdatrix Side Seal have the Tapered profile like the originals??
Thanks
05-29-2010, 03:16 AM
#224
We (Aus) went through all this here years ago too, the main reason most Mazda dealer (Service Departments) don't do rebuilds are one Labor Cost and two "The old Experience", in other words a tech who may have done many for a dealer while working there leaves and starts his own "rotary rebuild" business, plus if a Rebuild is NOT done correctly, the lost production cost in a service department becomes an issue.
Mazda US does do rebuilds, just not at Dealer level.
Does your Mazdatrix Side Seal have the Tapered profile like the originals??
Thanks
Mazda US does do rebuilds, just not at Dealer level.
Does your Mazdatrix Side Seal have the Tapered profile like the originals??
Thanks
All I'm trying to say is don't give a man a taxi when he doesn't know his way around the city.
05-29-2010, 03:17 AM
#225
Super Moderator
Your pics look good Shady, your cleanliness is excellent..
They are an an amazing set of parts to look at..arn't they..classic.
They are an an amazing set of parts to look at..arn't they..classic.