Gas/Oil Premix Thread
06-04-2008, 07:42 PM
#1276
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06-04-2008, 11:13 PM
#1277
Super Moderator
Not sure Rob,
It's just a pic I have had for some time posted in this thread WAY Back by another member, you see it is dated DEC, 23, 2006.
But I agree 0.50 OZ (Half) per gallon is too much if your MOP is active with ALL the Latest Mazda PCM Flashes.
0.25 OZ (Quarter) is just right, or around 4 maybe 5 max. Oz's per 16 gallon refill.
Any more and you are going to compromise the lifespan of your CAT.
It's just a pic I have had for some time posted in this thread WAY Back by another member, you see it is dated DEC, 23, 2006.
But I agree 0.50 OZ (Half) per gallon is too much if your MOP is active with ALL the Latest Mazda PCM Flashes.
0.25 OZ (Quarter) is just right, or around 4 maybe 5 max. Oz's per 16 gallon refill.
Any more and you are going to compromise the lifespan of your CAT.
06-05-2008, 07:11 AM
#1279
Registered
? What is the harm to "too much pre mix oil inside the engine?" I know the carbon issue but to you think pre mix really adds to that?
Lets throw this out for discussion.
Also what is best--pre mixing or increasing omp output?
I did a little backyard experiment on an old housing. i drilled out the weep holes to the next larger size---i know i know--what for? Well there was a dramatic difference in the amount of oil weeping through. And it covered a wider area. too look at the drilled one in comparison just with the naked eye--it is hard to tell the difference--so i am not talking about a large increase here.
food for thought and discussion
olddragger
Lets throw this out for discussion.
Also what is best--pre mixing or increasing omp output?
I did a little backyard experiment on an old housing. i drilled out the weep holes to the next larger size---i know i know--what for? Well there was a dramatic difference in the amount of oil weeping through. And it covered a wider area. too look at the drilled one in comparison just with the naked eye--it is hard to tell the difference--so i am not talking about a large increase here.
food for thought and discussion
olddragger
The holes where the "injected" oil enters the combustion chamber. Obviously, at 1 or 2 quarts per 3000 miles, the flow rate is quite slow indeed. Definitely not being "sprayed" into the chamber in any sense. You can cry tears at a much faster rate than the OMP puts out oil. Therefore the term "weep holes" is apt.
OD - some of your stuff is pretty comical but sometimes I think you have really gone a little nuts. For you to have drilled out the holes, they would probably have had to have been at least 1/16" in diameter. Now you do a test to see how much oil you can push through a hole that size with say just 1 psi of differential pressure - a good stream I would suspect. And don't forget that each hole only puts out 1/4 of the 'tears' Nubo refers to. Also you can see the difference in the spreading of the oil between two holes whose size difference is barely perceptible to the human eye???
I've said this before somewhere, but the MOP is a positive displacement pump that doesn't care about minor resistances in the path to the combustion chamber.
06-05-2008, 08:17 AM
#1280
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There is no reason to think or assume any petroleum based oil will seperate from gasoline when mixed with it. They are both petroleum products, and being such will combine and stay that way. All 2 stroke oils have small amount of mixing agent (stoddard solvent, or kerosene) in them to facilitate mixing of them in gas. some racing fuels may have mix issues. Any castor based or castor containing oil will have issue below freezing, or if the specific gravity of fuel is below .735. Adding tolulene to fuel will get the castor to remix. As far as the Amsoil Sabre.....High temp detergents do not keep carbon deposits from forming, but keep the piston crown (rotor face in our 8's) ports clean through a detergent action. Amsoil is well followed by most of the herd of idiots, but is just another multi-level marketing scheme. Don't get me wrong it is good stuff, but simply cannot provide any benefits over other oils in the same class. The Mobil 1 pure syn 2-stroke is super clean, and provides less wear than any other oil i've tried (Motocrosser input) short of Castrol A747 @$19.00 a litre. Again i don't think a 500:1 will do squat either, if you are going to run that lean just use MMO...
06-05-2008, 10:51 AM
#1281
Hey Del
Yea I am a little crazy sometimes. I admit that. I was only just wondering if the oil that the nozzle provides the engine is being distributed by the rotor then would a "bigger" drop be distributed better? This in leu of the apex seals not really getting much --hince the 3nd nozzle on the new engines. We older models are ever searching for better ways.
Oh by the way I didnt push the oil through--I just let it weep. Just dropped the oil into the spot that is normally taken up by the oil nozzle and watched it come through. And yes there was a noticable difference.
The mop does not inject oil--it merely presents it to the weep hole. from your post I kind of get the idea that you are saying it is injected? I dont think you mean that but just wanted to clarify.
On providing some info on the gas premix/collecting gunk question--premix and gas will not separate--absoulutly correct, but some folk were mixing a cleaner and a premix together with gas. Lucus upper cynilber and a synthetic pre mix in a concentration of 1/4 oz to the gallon DID seperate. Formed globlets that was difficult to dispurse.
When we speak of gunk at the bottom of the tank --please remember that ALL gas has sediment and if you pre mix then the small "sump" cannister around the fluel pump will collect that sediment and it is theorized that premix will add to that collection process and then that eventually causes the filter to clog and you end up with fuel starvation issues. Just keep your tank at 1/2 or better and you will be able to keep that cannister washed out more. Below 1/2 tank and the cannister doesnt get as much fuel moving in and out of it . That doesnt guarantee never having to replace the pump but is does make some common sense.
Back to my crazy ways.
olddragger
Yea I am a little crazy sometimes. I admit that. I was only just wondering if the oil that the nozzle provides the engine is being distributed by the rotor then would a "bigger" drop be distributed better? This in leu of the apex seals not really getting much --hince the 3nd nozzle on the new engines. We older models are ever searching for better ways.
Oh by the way I didnt push the oil through--I just let it weep. Just dropped the oil into the spot that is normally taken up by the oil nozzle and watched it come through. And yes there was a noticable difference.
The mop does not inject oil--it merely presents it to the weep hole. from your post I kind of get the idea that you are saying it is injected? I dont think you mean that but just wanted to clarify.
On providing some info on the gas premix/collecting gunk question--premix and gas will not separate--absoulutly correct, but some folk were mixing a cleaner and a premix together with gas. Lucus upper cynilber and a synthetic pre mix in a concentration of 1/4 oz to the gallon DID seperate. Formed globlets that was difficult to dispurse.
When we speak of gunk at the bottom of the tank --please remember that ALL gas has sediment and if you pre mix then the small "sump" cannister around the fluel pump will collect that sediment and it is theorized that premix will add to that collection process and then that eventually causes the filter to clog and you end up with fuel starvation issues. Just keep your tank at 1/2 or better and you will be able to keep that cannister washed out more. Below 1/2 tank and the cannister doesnt get as much fuel moving in and out of it . That doesnt guarantee never having to replace the pump but is does make some common sense.
Back to my crazy ways.
olddragger
06-05-2008, 11:24 AM
#1282
Registered
Hey Del
Yea I am a little crazy sometimes. I admit that. I was only just wondering if the oil that the nozzle provides the engine is being distributed by the rotor then would a "bigger" drop be distributed better? This in leu of the apex seals not really getting much --hince the 3nd nozzle on the new engines. We older models are ever searching for better ways.
Oh by the way I didnt push the oil through--I just let it weep. Just dropped the oil into the spot that is normally taken up by the oil nozzle and watched it come through. And yes there was a noticable difference.
The mop does not inject oil--it merely presents it to the weep hole. from your post I kind of get the idea that you are saying it is injected? I dont think you mean that but just wanted to clarify.
On providing some info on the gas premix/collecting gunk question--premix and gas will not separate--absoulutly correct, but some folk were mixing a cleaner and a premix together with gas. Lucus upper cynilber and a synthetic pre mix in a concentration of 1/4 oz to the gallon DID seperate. Formed globlets that was difficult to dispurse.
When we speak of gunk at the bottom of the tank --please remember that ALL gas has sediment and if you pre mix then the small "sump" cannister around the fluel pump will collect that sediment and it is theorized that premix will add to that collection process and then that eventually causes the filter to clog and you end up with fuel starvation issues. Just keep your tank at 1/2 or better and you will be able to keep that cannister washed out more. Below 1/2 tank and the cannister doesnt get as much fuel moving in and out of it . That doesnt guarantee never having to replace the pump but is does make some common sense.
Back to my crazy ways.
olddragger
Yea I am a little crazy sometimes. I admit that. I was only just wondering if the oil that the nozzle provides the engine is being distributed by the rotor then would a "bigger" drop be distributed better? This in leu of the apex seals not really getting much --hince the 3nd nozzle on the new engines. We older models are ever searching for better ways.
Oh by the way I didnt push the oil through--I just let it weep. Just dropped the oil into the spot that is normally taken up by the oil nozzle and watched it come through. And yes there was a noticable difference.
The mop does not inject oil--it merely presents it to the weep hole. from your post I kind of get the idea that you are saying it is injected? I dont think you mean that but just wanted to clarify.
On providing some info on the gas premix/collecting gunk question--premix and gas will not separate--absoulutly correct, but some folk were mixing a cleaner and a premix together with gas. Lucus upper cynilber and a synthetic pre mix in a concentration of 1/4 oz to the gallon DID seperate. Formed globlets that was difficult to dispurse.
When we speak of gunk at the bottom of the tank --please remember that ALL gas has sediment and if you pre mix then the small "sump" cannister around the fluel pump will collect that sediment and it is theorized that premix will add to that collection process and then that eventually causes the filter to clog and you end up with fuel starvation issues. Just keep your tank at 1/2 or better and you will be able to keep that cannister washed out more. Below 1/2 tank and the cannister doesnt get as much fuel moving in and out of it . That doesnt guarantee never having to replace the pump but is does make some common sense.
Back to my crazy ways.
olddragger
With regard to the oil spreading, don't forget that an apex seal passes by the holes in times that are measured in milliseconds, so there is not much time for the oil to move around naturally before getting splattered by an apex (BTW I think you know that I spoke affectionately when referring to your state of mind
.
06-05-2008, 11:36 AM
#1283
Thanks man---I knew that.
yep that rotor does go by fast--i tried to hook the assembley up to a bicycle driven 'rotator" to check that spread better---but that didnt work
Sounds like I have too much dang time on my hands doesnt it. Oh well-- back to the man cave. Currently exploring water meth system one nozzle versus two.
OD
yep that rotor does go by fast--i tried to hook the assembley up to a bicycle driven 'rotator" to check that spread better---but that didnt work
Sounds like I have too much dang time on my hands doesnt it. Oh well-- back to the man cave. Currently exploring water meth system one nozzle versus two.
OD
06-05-2008, 11:50 AM
#1284
The MOP "presents" the oil in a fixed volume via positive displacement.
Does your Petit blower just "present" air to the motor?
Each push of the MOP creates a puff of oil. It doesn't dribble.
Plus, being hit at a couple of hundred feet per second by the apex seal does a pretty good job of distributing it.
06-05-2008, 04:20 PM
#1285
Super Moderator
Thanks man---I knew that.
yep that rotor does go by fast--i tried to hook the assembley up to a bicycle driven 'rotator" to check that spread better---but that didnt work
Sounds like I have too much dang time on my hands doesnt it. Oh well-- back to the man cave. Currently exploring water meth system one nozzle versus two.
OD
yep that rotor does go by fast--i tried to hook the assembley up to a bicycle driven 'rotator" to check that spread better---but that didnt work
Sounds like I have too much dang time on my hands doesnt it. Oh well-- back to the man cave. Currently exploring water meth system one nozzle versus two.
OD
06-05-2008, 04:34 PM
#1286
Super Moderator
There is no reason to think or assume any petroleum based oil will seperate from gasoline when mixed with it. They are both petroleum products, and being such will combine and stay that way. All 2 stroke oils have small amount of mixing agent (stoddard solvent, or kerosene) in them to facilitate mixing of them in gas. some racing fuels may have mix issues. Any castor based or castor containing oil will have issue below freezing, or if the specific gravity of fuel is below .735. Adding tolulene to fuel will get the castor to remix. As far as the Amsoil Sabre.....High temp detergents do not keep carbon deposits from forming, but keep the piston crown (rotor face in our 8's) ports clean through a detergent action. Amsoil is well followed by most of the herd of idiots, but is just another multi-level marketing scheme. Don't get me wrong it is good stuff, but simply cannot provide any benefits over other oils in the same class. The Mobil 1 pure syn 2-stroke is super clean, and provides less wear than any other oil i've tried (Motocrosser input) short of Castrol A747 @$19.00 a litre. Again i don't think a 500:1 will do squat either, if you are going to run that lean just use MMO...
You idiot..
Only joking mate, but yes AS-pro iS no different to "quality " 2 cycle pre-mixes.
06-05-2008, 10:49 PM
#1288
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After reading, then reading , and once more for the mind blowing effects, I took the plunge and started pre-mixing. I got my Idemistu today, case worth, and put 3oz in. I figured since I fill up at 1/4 tank anyway putting 3oz in would eventually equal out to be 4oz per tank in the end. (thanks to Swwope for the dixie cup trick, worked great!) Of coarse correct me if I'm wrong cause my sense doesn't make sense. But after driving it for a bit, maybe it's just me seeing/feeling something that isn't there, but my engine seemed to be a bit smoother. Seemed the car just felt better, but it could be all in my head but we'll see. I was running my a/c and before it would seem to studder when at idle but after I put that in and was running the a/c it just seemed to be smoother and not have that studder. Second 8 so maybe second times a charm?
Version 1.0
Version 1.0
06-06-2008, 01:35 AM
#1289
After reading, then reading , and once more for the mind blowing effects, I took the plunge and started pre-mixing. I got my Idemistu today, case worth, and put 3oz in. I figured since I fill up at 1/4 tank anyway putting 3oz in would eventually equal out to be 4oz per tank in the end. (thanks to Swwope for the dixie cup trick, worked great!) Of coarse correct me if I'm wrong cause my sense doesn't make sense. But after driving it for a bit, maybe it's just me seeing/feeling something that isn't there, but my engine seemed to be a bit smoother. Seemed the car just felt better, but it could be all in my head but we'll see. I was running my a/c and before it would seem to studder when at idle but after I put that in and was running the a/c it just seemed to be smoother and not have that studder. Second 8 so maybe second times a charm?
Version 1.0
Version 1.0
what you describe is real and it gets better.
beers
06-06-2008, 02:40 AM
#1290
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Well, if it gets better than what I felt today, that's freaking great! Not to mention that I still got some Fat Tire beers left, oh yeah, giggity giggity!
Seriously, this is going to get good!
V1.0
Seriously, this is going to get good!
V1.0
06-06-2008, 09:30 AM
#1291
Hey MM --Hot out there yet?
Working with Snow on a custom rotary application--we will see.
Nope my blower doesnt present --it blows.
Just trying to get away from the word 'injected". Thats all. A water faucet is also a positive displacement tool--but it can drip or it can flow a lot. And different things can make the flow volumne increase. Thats all i was talking about.
olddragger
Working with Snow on a custom rotary application--we will see.
Nope my blower doesnt present --it blows.
Just trying to get away from the word 'injected". Thats all. A water faucet is also a positive displacement tool--but it can drip or it can flow a lot. And different things can make the flow volumne increase. Thats all i was talking about.
olddragger
06-06-2008, 08:32 PM
#1294
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Originally Posted by olddragger;24978'27
A water faucet is also a positive displacement tool--but it can drip or it can flow a lot. And different things can make the flow volumne increase. Thats all i was talking about.
olddragger
olddragger
06-06-2008, 09:13 PM
#1295
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I gotta say that after my second day of driving with pre-mix, my grin is from ear to ear. This engine is so smooth now and idles so much better. Feels like it's a tad guicker too. Man I'm glad I did this!
06-06-2008, 10:32 PM
#1297
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have a 2006 with about 5400 on it (my second 8). I bought it last year and just after I got it "broke in" I had to leave for about 8 months. I took it into the dealer when I got back for an oil change and they reflashed it then to suppossedly the newest flash. Though they never have put any stickers on the car stating a recal has been done. I'm not too sure about how good the dealership is, which is why I'm going to start doing my own oil changes here soon when I switch to synthetic oil. I was going to change the oil yesterday but I got side tracked, plus I'm really enjoying how much smoother it is now. Not to mention I am trying to decide if I want to get the digital readouts that Jedi put into his car (in the DIY section) or get the Cobb AP. Cause if I get the readouts I might as well do and oil change anyway and knock it out at the same time.
06-08-2008, 07:39 AM
#1298
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06-08-2008, 07:41 AM
#1299
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06-08-2008, 09:21 AM
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I think he's just talking about the screens Racing Beat sells for the oil coolers and radiator to protect them from road hazards (rocks, debris, etc)