Jax_RX8

Go ahead - cat's don't require a "break-in", although they do stink a little more when new (rotten egg smell)

Let us know.

Jax_RX8

Th great majority of the carbon generation is from fuel burning and a very rich mixture of it at that. While a little more carbon may be added from Premix (supplementing the OMP oil injection), it is a very small percentage of the total.

Many here view premix as only adding more lubricity - in my mind, it has to have two functions, more lubricity and more cleaning - thus the point of view for most of my posts.

Even if you don't premix, you will have carbon buildup over time if you don't use some kind of cleaner to clear it out - so if your going to add some cleaner anyways, you might as well add one that provides some lubricity as well - what's it going to hurt.

Let us know how you plan to proceed and what your results are over time.

SpIcEz

Jax

Ok, I see what you mean. While reading on Amsoil I found out they updated their lineup maybe a year or 2 ago and their new 2 cycle line up is all synthetic.

http://www.amsoil.com/products/twocycle/fab_four.aspx

There are 2 Sabers, the Pro and the Outboard (obviously the later is not for us).

I did ask if Saber Pro and Interceptor where Cat safe and he said they both where.

New Yorker

I'm with you, brother. The reality out in the real world is very different from reality here in the bizarro world of RX8Club.com. While many here believe the Renesis has serious "issues"—in fact, it's become an RX8Club.com "fact"—published reliability data suggests otherwise. And while many here may premix and proudly show off their engines 150K from now, the vast majority of 8 owners have never premixed, never will premix, and will suffer no engine consequences for not premixing. Here's my reasoning:

Assume, for argument's sake, that it's true that the Renesis has serious issues. It would then follow that the vast majority of RX-8s out there, which have never had the "benefit" of premixing, are having—or will have—engine problems. And yet that is not the case:

Published long-term road tests:

Car and Driver: reliability "average"
Road & Track: reliability "excellent"
edmunds.com: reliability "average"
Consumer Reports, April '08 Annual Auto Issue: reliability back up to "average;" car added to list of "Recommended Cars," which must be at least average in reliability.

What's more, several publications have observed the Renesis growing stronger and more powerful as the miles accumulate, with decreased acceleration times. Have the editors of Car and Driver, Road & Track, edmunds.com and Consumer Reports been premxing? No. Think people… an engine with serious design "issues" would get worse over time, not better.

I believe the reality is that—away from the bizarro world of RX8Club.com—the Renesis DOES NOT have significant "issues." I believe the biggest "issue" the Renesis has is that, as currently configured, it's not terribly forgiving of the normal neglect most owners practice toward their cars. And I believe the vast majority of Renesis engines that do have problems are either a) early '04 first-year-of-production models with expected "teething" problems, or b) have them as a result of owner neglect of some kind (i.e. wrong engine oil, engine mods, racing, oil level too low, not revving high enough, not revving often enough, not letting the engine warm before pushing it, etc.)

Considering the 8's reliability (not here, but in the real world), and considering the Renesis' increased power over time, a more logical explanation for Mazda's actions (ECU flashes, reconfiguring oil injection in the newest Renesis, etc.) is that Mazda is trying to make an engine that's more or less average in reliability... better. With perhaps a greater margin of error for owner neglect. Now, if the various long-term road tests revealed poor reliability—or if the Renesis grew weaker, not stronger, as time went on—then I'd agree with those who say the current Renesis has significant "issues". And that premixing, with the right stuff in the right amount, might be a good way to help avoid problems.

But that is not the reality. I'm not saying premixing isn't good for your engine—it might be. (Then again, it might not; Idemitsu does NOT recommend their own product for a stock, non-raced 8 but hey, what do they know? Obviously they don't have the benefit of the vast knowledge of oil enjoyed by the many petroleum experts here.) Personally I don't believe premix is necessary for a properly maintained, unmodded, unraced car. And Mazda's ECU re-flashes and the OMP redesign don't "prove" that the current engine has serious "issues." Hey, I can't tell you how many Software Updates my MacBook Pro has had in the two years I've owned it. That doesn't mean my laptop was poorly designed or had serious "issues". The updates just make a good laptop… better.

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

Those of you that don;t think the engines need pre-mix...or at least MOP supplementation obviously don't follow along with what Mazda has done with the extra oil injector per rotor on the upgraded engine...and the continual increasing of the MOP profile on the engine since it was introduced.

It is relatively likely that a lot of the early engine failures was due to the lower than necessary oil being injected in early engines...especially under sustained low load type cruising.

( and I'm not going to really tell you what I think )

pdxhak

iTrader: (2)

Any thoughts of the latest flash and premix?

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

I think the most exciting thing is the flash tuners...we can increase the MOP flow rates to make pre-mixing less important. The way I drive my car...track time and turbo...I will always pre-mix...but for a stock street driven car..the flash tuners..and maybe the newer flash will not make that necessary....

maxrx8

They did all of the cleaning and flash per latest campain.

What's the latest campain?

Or should I put this in the Flash thread?

I'm going to do the MMO today. I'll report back.

Peace.

Max

Nubo

Consider some of the "data" that was never intended to be published. Such as dealers being so frustrated with RX-8 repair and warranty issues that Mazda had to placate them by no longer considering RX-8 customer feedback forms when evaluating the dealer service departments. Also the high rate of engine failures especially in the American southwest.

Also consider the recall and special program from last year to check every RX-8 engine to see if it needed to be replaced. Imagine the hoopla if such a program were to be launched for some mainstream sedan!

Consider the 1-year warranty extension. Was that simply Mazda deciding to be generous? I think rather it was a means to counter a general public perception of the car as problematic. In the real world.


Hey, I like my 2004 and its been fairly reliable. I've only had 2 real complaints. One was with the power steering. Two visits to the dealer only resulted in smoke being blown up my ***. The explanation of the cause, and the ultimate (DIY) fix, I found here in the "Bizzaro world" of RX8club. The other complaint was for anemic air conditioning. The dealer blew smoke up my ***. The explanation of the cause, and the ultimate (DIY) fix (reprogramming of the amplifier) I found here in the "Bizzaro world" of RX8club. So far the problem resolution score is:

Mazda Service Department --- 0
RX8club --------------------------2

So you can understand why I take any suggestion that "Mazda knows best" with a grain of salt. From my view, Mazda is schizophrenic when it comes to this car, its service, and the rotary engine. Mazda engineers may well know what they're doing. Doesn't mean that knowledge is translated into real-world action by Mazda and their dealerships. At least in the kind of timeframe that real-world owners require to make appropriate use and decisions about their vehicles. As each year goes by, the information here is increasingly validated as Mazda moves glacially in the same overall direction.

Jax_RX8

Notice though that the normal treatment rate for Interceptor (50:1) is twice that of Saber Pro (100:1) - what this means is that a greater percentage of the ounce-for-ounce package is cleaners and not lubricants, thus more of this 2-cycle is likely required to provide the same level protection.

With this in mind, Interceptor is just about the same a using Saber Pro and adding another lubricious cleaner (FP Plus, MMO, etc) to it, except that the other lubricious cleaners are likely less expensive - thus the combined package may cost less (definitely would be less with MMO, not really with FP Plus).

Just some additional data to consider

SpIcEz

On another note, Im guessing at the same amounts, it'll probably have better protection, lubricity wise than MMO, as it is its main purpose as a 2cycle oil.

I think with an OMP thats functional, using 5oz of Interceptor will be a very good option. Considering premix is to add protection and most people dont premix.

In any case, wont hurt to try, and besides its going to cost me about 7$ less per quart. So I'll keep you guys updated on my findings. (wont be scientific though)

Jax_RX8

1. Possibly

2. Absolutely

3. Please do

StealthTL

iTrader: (1)

Ideally the Renesis would have a proper lubrication system - a variable pump injecting two-stroke oil (from a seperate reservoir) exactly where it's needed, controlled by throttle position and load, just like any modern two-stroke does.

In the 'real world' such a system would be laughed out of showrooms, and would never be acceptable to J. Public.

Mazda is well aware of this and has cobbled together a system that steals inferior engine oil from the sump, in amounts that will hopefully escape the owners attention. Not good enough in my book, but then I've worked the last 32 years in the oil business, so what would I know.......

S

Shrapnel

Needless to say, people are free to believe what they like. The issue is whether or not what they believe is credible and/ or beneficial.

One reason Mazda has succeeded in developing a practical rotary engine is their painstaking and systematic experimentation, testing and improvement over many years. During development of the 13B engine... "Mazda engineers ran one test RE at 8000rpm for six months, and another from tickover to 7000rpm and back again for three months." (source: "RX-7" by Brian Long). Given Mazda's long experience and commitment to the rotary engine it is reasonable to assume that the Renesis was also tested to at least this level. Any inherent lubrication issue (lubrication being one of the most basic mechanical issues) would surely have shown up during engine development and testing.

Accordingly, I choose to believe that Mazda engineers actually know what they are doing and have developed a brilliant enthusiast's engine that will continue to reward careful maintenance strictly in accordance with manufacturer's instructions with reliability and longevity. My personal experience with two RX-8's supports my belief (so far!). Time will tell, of course.

Mercury

I eat a handful of vitamins for breakfast every morning because I've never been able to find a nutrition label on a Heineken bottle. Maybe I should send a request for a MSDS?

Likewise with my new RX-8's engine: I don't know for certain what's going on inside so I am going to play it safer by premixng something into the fuel. For now I am trying Marvel Mystery Oil. It is too early to make any claims, especially with just 3800 miles (probably still going through break-in), but I was happy to see a fuel economy increase from an average of 23 mpg to almost 24.5! This last tank of fuel carried me 281 miles and took 11.5 gallons of 91 octane Chevron to refill, and that was the first time I used MMO (8 oz).

I know 23 mpg seems hard to believe (yes, I am sober - I am at work sucking up Sunday OT), but I've always been able to get better than the EPA ratings with Mazdas. A little extra tire pressure, 35 PSI all around, lots of Manumatic mode for the bumper-to-bumper crawl, moderate temps and a 25-mile commute all help, I think. That commute, BTW, is about 35% suburban residential and then the usual overcrowded highway.

So there you have it - my premixing story so far. Once I have enough data points I'll come forth with a testimonial on MMO if the news is good enough.

Nubo

Well, I've kind of been won over by the MMO idea. I'm not looking to replace the OMP or supply it with a separate resevoir. Mine has always seemed to consume oil on the high side compared to most (lucky?), so I'm not too worried about amount. But I would like a bit of insurance. And it seems to me that the 2 basic properties of MMO make sense as an additive, rather than a replacement.

1 - the dose of boundary agents. Judging from wear on old seals that has been presented, the oil film between seal and housing does not appear to prevent metal/metal contact. I'm not convinced that ANY oil will result in sufficient film strength to prevent all metal-to-metal contact in that environment. So something that adds protection for when that metal-on-metal happens, sounds good to me.

2 - solvent/cleansing/carbon removal -- well, it seems that carbon deposits are an ongoing bane of the rotary.

So it appears to me that it targets 2 of the Renesis weak spots. It's available everywhere (US) in large, economical amounts. The phosphorus caused me some concern for the cat, but there are enough reports of high-mileage vehicles (including rotaries) without cat failure that I'm sufficiently reassured.

Jax_RX8

I am still using it as my sole premix for now as well and remain impressed - I am leaning towards staying with it for my permanent premix although I do not think you can go wrong with a FP Plus/IRP combo either.

But like you, I do like the several barrier lubricants and EP/lubricity add that MMO has that most 2-cycles do not have as 2-cycles rely on "oil films" for their protection, but when the oil film is not enough and is broken through, its nice to know there is something more there to reduce/prevent wear.

BMonkey

Just to report, I began premixing with AMSOIL Saber professional this week and wanted to give my reports. The car is a 2006 A/T that was purchased October 31st, 2006. It currently has 22478 miles. Up to 22000 miles I ran the dealership recommended 5w-20. I always noticed that at idle both cold and warmed up, the engine had what I'd describe as a "burble" that manifested itself as a slight vibration. After research and reading bits of advice from the god of rotary, I decided to change the oiling regimen. At 22000 miles I switched to Royal Purple 10w-30 and began premixing (the saber pro is available in 3.5oz containers which is perfect for a fillup). There has been a noticable decrease in the "burble" and during acceleration the engine sounds smoother as revs increase. Haven't had a chance to check changes in fuel mileage.




I just wanted to say New Yorker that I've read alot of your posts and I really wish the atmosphere of RX8 club wasn't so mature and above flaming. I am married to a woman from Bensonhurst so I understand the NY attitude, but there's a difference between making a point and beating into someone's face. If you have so much faith that publicly traded corporations really have your best interests in mind over covering their own butts, that's your decision. But until you start producing more solid evidence besides some official statements prepared by lawyers, I think the evidence presented here in the threads of RX8 club trumps what you keep pontificating on.

New Yorker

First of all, I'd hardly describe the "atmosphere" of RX8 club as "mature"; unfortunately it's often quite the opposite—particularly to someone who spent years on miata.net, which is generally more civil. Flaming? Flaming here is so commonplace, it's usually overlooked.

Second, what exactly is this "NY attitude" you refer to? I would hardly characterize my post, which you've quoted, as "beating into someone's face." I carefully tried to make my point—that a properly maintained, non-raced, non-modded Renesis does not have significant "issues"—reasonably and logically.

And where did I produce "official statements prepared by lawyers"?? The evidence I quoted supporting the 8's long-term reliability comes from published long-term road tests in Car and Driver, Road & Track and edmunds.com, and from the new 2008 Consumer Reports Auto Buying Guide. This is information from professional, bona fide journalists; more reliable than much of the anecdotal evidence presented here and on the Internet in general. Which is not to say the Internet can't be a good source of info; of course it can, as is often the case here. But it's also a place where rumors and little conspiracy ideas quickly take root and become "facts." (Well… Internet facts. See "Bush attacked WTC," or "Obama a Muslim.")

All the sources I quoted rated Renesis reliability average or higher, contrary to what one would expect if the Renesis had the significant issues that are a "fact" on RX8Club.com. The fact that several publications found the Renesis gained power as miles accumulate further supports my argument; that's simply not what an engine with the issues described here would do.

Again, if Car and Driver, Road & Track, edmunds.com, Consumer Reports and others reported poor reliability, frequent visits to the dealer, engine replacements and the need to premix, I'd be the first to say yeah—the Renesis has serious problems. But that's not the case.

CnnmnSchnpps

iTrader: (1)

You just don't know the full scope of the conspiracy.

Hmm hmm

leadguitarist05

New Yorker, I'm on your side on this one buddy... My RX8 has been nothing but reliable, sure, I've had a few things break but what car doesn't? it's never left me stranded and anything that broke was minor (my clutch bracket was the worst thing, but still not a big deal and has nothing to do with the reliability of the Renesis!). BMonkey is wearing his ignorance on his sleeve, I thought your post about reliability was well thought out and put together! informative! and most importantly TRUE! the RX8 gets a bad rep because the third generation RX7 had some bad issues (it was rushed to production without a well conceived cooling and lubrication system)...

having said that, I'm going to start premixing today, not because I think my RX8 needs it! I don't think it's necessary at all actually... but I'm seeing so many posts saying that it will give me an extra 2mpg and that's motivation enough for me to at least try it! that's an extra 30 miles per tank! well worth the $2 bottle of 2cyc!

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

I think u got something wrong, RX7's motor die mostly due to Heat. and Older RX7 can go over 200K easily.

Lets come back to Renesis 13B-MSP, I premix and I dont see any mpg increase, Hey thats just me, it might have something to do with the way I drive my car, I know what kind of car I have, so I know it use more gas.

(I bitch gas prices because I dont think it worth what it is right now)

New Yorker is one of the guy I respect on this forum, altho I dont really agree with him on this issue, but hey I know he is cool

CnnmnSchnpps

iTrader: (1)

I think the forums would have a much better perception of the RX8's reliability overall if it wasn't such a nightmare trying wrestle the dealer and MNAO into providing warranty coverage for issues...

nycgps - you realize the price of oil is going nowhere but up, right?

New Yorker

^ Thanks, and good luck with the premixing; I've toyed with the idea on more than one occasion. I would not be surprised to learn premixing is a plus, although right now I don't believe it's necessary for a totally stock, non-raced, properly maintained 8.

And again, it's the Renesis' "average" or better reliability in published long-term tests that leads me to believe the engine doesn't require premix and doesn't have significant inherent "issues". (Now… if I pick up, say, Road & Track, next fall and read a new long-term test where their 8's engine went south—and they say they have reports of many others doing the same—I'll be the first to post that I was wrong… and that Mazda's OMP redesign is not just making a good engine "better," but fixing a design flaw.)

swoope

iTrader: (5)

try it for two tanks. it will likely change you mind. and it costs little.

beers