Gas/Oil Premix Thread
02-10-2010, 12:56 PM
#2277
Registered
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 921
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
^ BDC brought up outboards and TCW-3. I was discussing that with him. If you would like to subject your own information to the conversation, make sure you read first. I know outboard oils should not be used. I was trying to explain that to BDC. I swear, some people............
Edit: Don't try getting all high and mighty in this thread mr 29 posts
Edit: Don't try getting all high and mighty in this thread mr 29 posts
02-10-2010, 01:04 PM
#2278
Lubricious
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: SF Bay Area, California
Posts: 3,425
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
4 Posts
What is the "stickiness", and how is it relating to "spitback"?
Maybe you can link to or upload the paper?
I used the Mobil 2T in the beginning but never found more than 2 bottles before it disappeared.
Any polybutene-based crankcase oils?
02-10-2010, 01:33 PM
#2279
No, you are not my father
Measuring Pre-Mix
Slightly different question - has anyone found one of the plastic bottles with the built-in measuring cup available for purchase anywhere? (Like the one in the attachment). I'll admit I haven't read this entire thread, but I've poured through 30-40 pages of it and saw where some people have bought something like Sta-Bil with the built-in meaurer and poured out the Sta-Bil. I'm fine with that if I can't find a new bottle somewhere. I've searched in McMaster-Carr, MSC, and Grainger so far without any luck.
02-10-2010, 01:37 PM
#2280
Polybutene viscosity 10.5cts@100deg C= carbon residue 2.6%wt
Mineral oil + detergents (somewhat like 5w30 dino motor oil) viscosity 10.9cst@100deg C= carbon residue 32.4%wt
I've noticed that Mobil 1 2t is sticker than Mobil 1 0w40. It's hard to get off the paint compared to mo. IMO that helps seal gases like the paper says.
I don't doubt any oil is better than nothing, but this paper finds that any motor oil makes lots of hard carbon which I think most people here understand. Luckily my RX8 only uses 1/2 quart in 2000miles so at 4oz premix per fillup, my 2t premix is 2/3rd's of total oil on seals.
Mineral oil + detergents (somewhat like 5w30 dino motor oil) viscosity 10.9cst@100deg C= carbon residue 32.4%wt
I've noticed that Mobil 1 2t is sticker than Mobil 1 0w40. It's hard to get off the paint compared to mo. IMO that helps seal gases like the paper says.
I don't doubt any oil is better than nothing, but this paper finds that any motor oil makes lots of hard carbon which I think most people here understand. Luckily my RX8 only uses 1/2 quart in 2000miles so at 4oz premix per fillup, my 2t premix is 2/3rd's of total oil on seals.
02-10-2010, 01:46 PM
#2281
Good hijack question!
Walmart has bottles of SuperTech 2 cycle oil API-TC with built-in measuring. IMO that it's made by same company from Houston that makes Pennzoil aircooled 2T API-TC which was tested good in rotax ultralight engines.
I'm gonna buy a bottle today myself. I might even refill it with Mobil 1 2T.
Walmart has bottles of SuperTech 2 cycle oil API-TC with built-in measuring. IMO that it's made by same company from Houston that makes Pennzoil aircooled 2T API-TC which was tested good in rotax ultralight engines.
I'm gonna buy a bottle today myself. I might even refill it with Mobil 1 2T.
02-10-2010, 01:49 PM
#2282
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
^ BDC brought up outboards and TCW-3. I was discussing that with him. If you would like to subject your own information to the conversation, make sure you read first. I know outboard oils should not be used. I was trying to explain that to BDC. I swear, some people............
Edit: Don't try getting all high and mighty in this thread mr 29 posts
Edit: Don't try getting all high and mighty in this thread mr 29 posts
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Slow your role brother, he has worked in the industry for years and we need input such as this from people in the know. I read the article and it was very interesting. I have also read an article on why TCW-3 2 strokes are bad and it was very inconclusive. If you go to walmart you can buy the cheaper 2 stroke in 6oz bottles, dump it out, and put you stuff in at each fillup. Personally I use the Lucas "quick shot" (or whatever its called) bottle.
Last edited by 9krpmrx8; 02-10-2010 at 01:52 PM.
02-10-2010, 02:32 PM
#2284
No, you are not my father
Good hijack question!
Walmart has bottles of SuperTech 2 cycle oil API-TC with built-in measuring. IMO that it's made by same company from Houston that makes Pennzoil aircooled 2T API-TC which was tested good in rotax ultralight engines.
I'm gonna buy a bottle today myself. I might even refill it with Mobil 1 2T.
Walmart has bottles of SuperTech 2 cycle oil API-TC with built-in measuring. IMO that it's made by same company from Houston that makes Pennzoil aircooled 2T API-TC which was tested good in rotax ultralight engines.
I'm gonna buy a bottle today myself. I might even refill it with Mobil 1 2T.
I've got a case of Idemitsu waiting on the shelf and a partial quart of RP 2 cycle oil to finish out and I'd just rather not pour out something that I don't need (or have to use up something that I don't want) if I can find a new bottle.
02-10-2010, 03:20 PM
#2285
Registered
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 921
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Slow your role brother, he has worked in the industry for years and we need input such as this from people in the know. I read the article and it was very interesting. I have also read an article on why TCW-3 2 strokes are bad and it was very inconclusive. If you go to walmart you can buy the cheaper 2 stroke in 6oz bottles, dump it out, and put you stuff in at each fillup. Personally I use the Lucas "quick shot" (or whatever its called) bottle.
I mentioned this and redrx3 goes on a about some paper and tcw-3 2 stroke oils, completely different then outboard oils. I do applaud the amount of respect you have for such members and their knowledge and be assured, I share the same respect. I just look down at someone who comes in, doesn't read what we are talking about, makes claims about a different but similar oil, and then writes in caps to get a point across that isn't what we were discussing.
Heres the convo again so you can see what I am talking about.
Or, without trying to come off as rude, you could listen to those of us that've been in the rotary community doing premix for a very long time (this will be my 11th year). The use of any TCW-3 labeled 2-stroke outboard engine oil will work. I've torn down enough motors on enough cars to see that it works just fine as a premix. Granted, we're doing fuel tank premixing at ratios of about 160:1 (less than one ounce oil per gallon of fuel for normal, regular driving) to 128:1 (1 ounce of oil per gallon of fuel for hard driving, dyno day, race day, etc.)
It works. Believe me on that.
B
It works. Believe me on that.
B
All TCW-3 oils are not created to be run with a catalytic converter. That is why you can find specific tcw-3 catalytic converter safe oils. TCW-3 oils are typically used in motorcycles and boats, which typically do not have cats. Cats are not intended to see oil. Using too much as a premix, can happen on track days, or using it as a premix and in a SOHN adapter may cause a premature cat failure.
I'm no expert, but some of the respected members of this forum highly recommend not using TCW-3 oils.
I'm no expert, but some of the respected members of this forum highly recommend not using TCW-3 oils.
I found a SAE paper of 1992 on Lubricating rotary racing engines. They measure carbonaceous deposit formation in the apex seal groove with mineral, polyalphaolefin (PAO synthetic), and polybutene oils.
The polybutene based oils seem to make approximately 10% carbon compared to anything else with a stickiness that minimizes spitback (better sealing-more power).
There are many 2 cycles on market that actually say they have polybutene (Lucas 2 cycle is a reasonable priced one), but IMO that most TC 2 cycle oils have polybutene.
My favorites:
Mobil 1 racing 2T (discountinued but I got stash)
Pennzoil air cooled 2 cycle ( Walmart Supertech 2 cycle TC might be same in pinch)
Lucas 2 cycle TC sounds good to me
The polybutene based oils seem to make approximately 10% carbon compared to anything else with a stickiness that minimizes spitback (better sealing-more power).
There are many 2 cycles on market that actually say they have polybutene (Lucas 2 cycle is a reasonable priced one), but IMO that most TC 2 cycle oils have polybutene.
My favorites:
Mobil 1 racing 2T (discountinued but I got stash)
Pennzoil air cooled 2 cycle ( Walmart Supertech 2 cycle TC might be same in pinch)
Lucas 2 cycle TC sounds good to me
^ BDC brought up outboards and TCW-3. I was discussing that with him. If you would like to subject your own information to the conversation, make sure you read first. I know outboard oils should not be used. I was trying to explain that to BDC. I swear, some people............
Edit: Don't try getting all high and mighty in this thread mr 29 posts
Edit: Don't try getting all high and mighty in this thread mr 29 posts
Again, I'm not knocking BDC, just saying that I have only herd bad things about TCW-3 outboard oils.
Last edited by jmc23200; 02-10-2010 at 03:26 PM.
02-10-2010, 03:26 PM
#2286
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
I was talking about REDRX3RX8, not Brian (also highly respected but not in the oil business). And how are TCW-3 oils so different from outboard oils? The marine oils have ingredients to make them biodegradable but there is no standard for the amount of those ingredients so its really hard to say how they affect our car if at all.
Last edited by 9krpmrx8; 02-10-2010 at 03:28 PM.
02-10-2010, 03:38 PM
#2287
Registered
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 921
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The tcw-3 outboard oils additives may have higher flash points and may not burn off completely causing them to end up in the cat. This is what I have read from this thread and it seems many, many people believe this. I would love to be wrong, I just haven't seen evidence to go either way so I just stay away from it.
It's kind of like how you feel about MMO
It's kind of like how you feel about MMO
02-10-2010, 04:14 PM
#2288
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
The tcw-3 outboard oils additives may have higher flash points and may not burn off completely causing them to end up in the cat. This is what I have read from this thread and it seems many, many people believe this. I would love to be wrong, I just haven't seen evidence to go either way so I just stay away from it.
It's kind of like how you feel about MMO
It's kind of like how you feel about MMO
Yeah, but you should look at the product data sheets and compare them.
For example:
Pennzoil Marine Premium Plus Outboard Two -Cycle oil (Synthetic Blend)
Flashpoint, C (F) 97 (207F)
Viscosity Index 133
Viscosity @ 100C, cst 9.37
Idemitsu Rotary Fuel Lube (Synthetic Blend)
Flashpoint, C (F) 126 (258F)
Viscosity Index 136
Viscosity @ 100C, cst 8.52
Am I missing something?
02-10-2010, 04:53 PM
#2290
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
Says who?
Look at the specs. Supposedly, "outboard oils" have higher flash points and poorer (sic) viscosity yet the Pennzoil I posted has better specs than the Rotary Lube (Idemitsu). The Flashpoint is way lower than the Idemitsu.
The only problem I had running the Pennzoil was that it is not smokeless and the smell associated with running a mid pipe is bad enough, the additional smoke was too much. But as far as protection goes, I am sure the outboard oriented Pennzoil is just fine if not better.
Last edited by 9krpmrx8; 02-10-2010 at 04:56 PM.
02-10-2010, 05:14 PM
#2291
I have been told by many people throughout my premixing life.
Marine machanics, aviation mechanics and the 3 catconverters that got fouled oup in my turbo ford ranger when I had it (later installed a midpipe). I used to run my snowmobile on high quality outboard 2cy and have changed to using Legend ZX-2R and it runs better and smells better. My exhaust is not under water, marine exausts are. I premix with saberpro in the 8 until I can get some more Legend in the US.
I don't see why someone would go out of their way to put the ecogunk in their car, or why you have to go out of your way to prove it. I would rather put lawn-boy 2cy in my car.
Marine machanics, aviation mechanics and the 3 catconverters that got fouled oup in my turbo ford ranger when I had it (later installed a midpipe). I used to run my snowmobile on high quality outboard 2cy and have changed to using Legend ZX-2R and it runs better and smells better. My exhaust is not under water, marine exausts are. I premix with saberpro in the 8 until I can get some more Legend in the US.
I don't see why someone would go out of their way to put the ecogunk in their car, or why you have to go out of your way to prove it. I would rather put lawn-boy 2cy in my car.
02-10-2010, 05:20 PM
#2292
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
I have been told by many people throughout my premixing life.
Marine machanics, aviation mechanics and the 3 catconverters that got fouled oup in my turbo ford ranger when I had it (later installed a midpipe). I used to run my snowmobile on high quality outboard 2cy and have changed to using Legend ZX-2R and it runs better and smells better. My exhaust is not under water, marine exausts are. I premix with saberpro in the 8 until I can get some more Legend in the US.
I don't see why someone would go out of their way to put the ecogunk in their car, or why you have to go out of your way to prove it. I would rather put lawn-boy 2cy in my car.
Marine machanics, aviation mechanics and the 3 catconverters that got fouled oup in my turbo ford ranger when I had it (later installed a midpipe). I used to run my snowmobile on high quality outboard 2cy and have changed to using Legend ZX-2R and it runs better and smells better. My exhaust is not under water, marine exausts are. I premix with saberpro in the 8 until I can get some more Legend in the US.
I don't see why someone would go out of their way to put the ecogunk in their car, or why you have to go out of your way to prove it. I would rather put lawn-boy 2cy in my car.
Ok
02-10-2010, 05:28 PM
#2294
Registered
Says who?
Look at the specs. Supposedly, "outboard oils" have higher flash points and poorer (sic) viscosity yet the Pennzoil I posted has better specs than the Rotary Lube (Idemitsu). The Flashpoint is way lower than the Idemitsu.
The only problem I had running the Pennzoil was that it is not smokeless and the smell associated with running a mid pipe is bad enough, the additional smoke was too much. But as far as protection goes, I am sure the outboard oriented Pennzoil is just fine if not better.
Look at the specs. Supposedly, "outboard oils" have higher flash points and poorer (sic) viscosity yet the Pennzoil I posted has better specs than the Rotary Lube (Idemitsu). The Flashpoint is way lower than the Idemitsu.
The only problem I had running the Pennzoil was that it is not smokeless and the smell associated with running a mid pipe is bad enough, the additional smoke was too much. But as far as protection goes, I am sure the outboard oriented Pennzoil is just fine if not better.
Since when does 'ISO-EGD' sound like TCW-3?
TCW-3 is the exact OPPOSITE of good oil.
It's boat oil, made to NOT burn, to slop around inside the chamber, and be bio-degradable underwater.
DO NOT USE, it's crap.
Write this down - 'ISO GD'
Unless you find a boat oil that meets BOTH standards, avoid TCW-3, please.
Shazy - the Lucas stuff ticks all the boxes - low carbon buildup, smokeless, Jaso and ISO - good stuff. Their UCL is very good too, no good as actual two-stroke, but a fine lube that burns completely, it's mostly polyisobutylene, which lubricates then burns completely.
Most modern two-strokes have a heavy dose of PB in their formula.
(I've been refining synthetic oil for a living for the last twenty-five years......)
TCW-3 is the exact OPPOSITE of good oil.
It's boat oil, made to NOT burn, to slop around inside the chamber, and be bio-degradable underwater.
DO NOT USE, it's crap.
Write this down - 'ISO GD'
Unless you find a boat oil that meets BOTH standards, avoid TCW-3, please.
Shazy - the Lucas stuff ticks all the boxes - low carbon buildup, smokeless, Jaso and ISO - good stuff. Their UCL is very good too, no good as actual two-stroke, but a fine lube that burns completely, it's mostly polyisobutylene, which lubricates then burns completely.
Most modern two-strokes have a heavy dose of PB in their formula.
(I've been refining synthetic oil for a living for the last twenty-five years......)
I said on page one, "don't use boat oil", and I'm still saying it five years and 35 pages of this thread later......
Please check the specs for JASO or ISO, it's childsplay these days with a google search - we run a two cylinder engine, equipped with two carbs for two separate fuel supplies. We run the oil lean and it must protect at 150:1, then richen up the pre-mix to 10:1 and any smoke is a fail!
Let's see boat slime meet that spec - it can't, it's too heavy, burns too smoky and leaves huge deposits if it does burn, because it's not designed to.
Boat oil is designed to slobber out with the exhaust, that's why bio-degradability is the prime focus of the specs. Unless your car discharges it's exhaust below the water level of a freshwater lake, it's not the right oil for you.
This is actually the last time I'm going to type this, I'm done with this thread.
All this has been stated irrefutably several times, but the specs are ignored and we go for another round of "I found this barge oil slime on sale down at the Cabelas, and I'm very happy with it," based on zero information; "my motor likes it...." "I get 14% better mileage..." " the engine response is incredible....".........bullshit.
So if your Pappy used Auto Tranny Fluid, Mystery Milk or Cat Diesel Fuel Enricher in his '47 DeSoto, then you should use it, just don't ask me what I recommend cos I'm out of here, done and finished. (Don't let thirty plus years in refining and chemicals hit me in the ***?.....)
S
Please check the specs for JASO or ISO, it's childsplay these days with a google search - we run a two cylinder engine, equipped with two carbs for two separate fuel supplies. We run the oil lean and it must protect at 150:1, then richen up the pre-mix to 10:1 and any smoke is a fail!
Let's see boat slime meet that spec - it can't, it's too heavy, burns too smoky and leaves huge deposits if it does burn, because it's not designed to.
Boat oil is designed to slobber out with the exhaust, that's why bio-degradability is the prime focus of the specs. Unless your car discharges it's exhaust below the water level of a freshwater lake, it's not the right oil for you.
This is actually the last time I'm going to type this, I'm done with this thread.
All this has been stated irrefutably several times, but the specs are ignored and we go for another round of "I found this barge oil slime on sale down at the Cabelas, and I'm very happy with it," based on zero information; "my motor likes it...." "I get 14% better mileage..." " the engine response is incredible....".........bullshit.
So if your Pappy used Auto Tranny Fluid, Mystery Milk or Cat Diesel Fuel Enricher in his '47 DeSoto, then you should use it, just don't ask me what I recommend cos I'm out of here, done and finished. (Don't let thirty plus years in refining and chemicals hit me in the ***?.....)
S
---/\
02-10-2010, 05:33 PM
#2296
BDC Motorsports
By the way, I never said that premixing wasn't bad for the converter. I stated that I saw no evidence to support why it was bad for it.
B
Last edited by BDC; 02-10-2010 at 05:56 PM. Reason: Correcting my idiotic use of HTML
02-10-2010, 05:34 PM
#2297
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
Wow, quoting a post (layman opinion) from another member. That will really away me. I'm still waiting for someone to comment about the supposedly high flash points of outboard oils. I'm not running a cat converter so I could care less about TCW-3 from that standpoint.
Last edited by 9krpmrx8; 02-10-2010 at 05:37 PM.
02-10-2010, 05:40 PM
#2298
Registered
Who's not recommending it? I for one am not against it and I've been premixing for over 10 years now. I've torn down these engines that are and have been premixed for such a long time. I just don't understand the fuss against it unless there's another reason specific to the Rx8 like the alleged fuel pump pickup issue or the supposed problem with a catalytic converter.
By the way, I never said that premixing wasn't bad for the converter. I stated that I saw no evidence to support why it [i]was[/b] bad for it.
B
By the way, I never said that premixing wasn't bad for the converter. I stated that I saw no evidence to support why it [i]was[/b] bad for it.
B
Now, BDC, I've been wanting to ask you something for a while. IIRC, most of your experience tearing down rotaries was with older 13Bs. Is that right? If you now have more experience with the side ports on the Renesis, do you see a difference in worse carbon build-up in the ports and side seals?
02-10-2010, 05:44 PM
#2299
Registered
02-10-2010, 05:45 PM
#2300
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
Question:
Is idemitsu even certified by anyone? All I can find is that it exceeds JASO. To me that sounds like the Royal Purple Marketing scheme. I see their ZEPRO 2 stroke motor oil listed (http://www.jalos.or.jp/) but not the Rotary Lube. If anyone knows please post up, I'm just curious.
Is idemitsu even certified by anyone? All I can find is that it exceeds JASO. To me that sounds like the Royal Purple Marketing scheme. I see their ZEPRO 2 stroke motor oil listed (http://www.jalos.or.jp/) but not the Rotary Lube. If anyone knows please post up, I'm just curious.
Last edited by 9krpmrx8; 02-10-2010 at 05:48 PM.