Cumulative Synthetic Oil Discussion
05-01-2007, 07:48 PM
#401
Originally Posted by bxb40
Actually, not much oil "burns" in the engine, Renesis or piston... only whatever can vaporize in the milliseconds the flame front moves through the cylinder, can burn (liquids cannot burn, only gases/vapours of combustible liquids can; evaporation takes time, even at very high temperatures). A very, very small amount. Not even motorcycles burn oil - it gets "spit out" through the exhaust, as a blue mist. In our cars, it gets in the catalyst, where it burns because the stationary time is much longer, and the temps are still high. They do degrade to some extent in the engine chamber, but that's about it. If it would burn, how would it lubricate?!? There are many online sites explaining what happens to the engine oil in the combustion chamber, so if you don't believe me, google it and do some reading (physics first, about the combustion process - find a liquid that burns without evaporation! The Nobel price awaits you ;o)
There are many theories as to why synthetics should not be used in rotaries. The old seals in RX7 seems the only proven one - material incompatibility with the Group V esters, not the PAO. Question is, what happens when oils degrade? Could it be that some synthetics make gummy stuff? Maybe - but which oils do it? Nobody knows... To me, the story seems to be based on few unrelated data. I've seen some photos of residue found in the ports of an engine using synthetic... don't remember which one, probably it was not mentioned.
The US market for oils is confused - everything from Group III, IV and V are "synthetics." Do all degrade the same? Guess not... hence the possible reason Mazda sums them all up and makes a weak warning about "synthetics." Can they cancel your warranty if you use synthetics? No, because it is not specified in the manual. Dealers and other can advice whatever they feel like (pro or against), but for the consumer, if it is not in the manual the car came with, it is not binding in a court of law (so you are "legally safe" with synthetics because the manual did not say anything about denying your warranty claim due to it).
But which synthetic to use? If people used a specific synthetic oil and took the engine apart to find it clean, then they should just say "This BRAND of synthetic is OK in Renesis." Mazda cannot recommend different brands of synthetic for legal reasons, but people could. So, whomever has the data to back it up, please claim in this thread that a specific synthetic is OK, post the picture of your engine taken apart, and everything will be clear The "engine runs fine" means nothing - it will not run fine when the gummy stuff will block most of the side ports, which is so extreme... probably driving the car hard (to keep the carbon deposits low) will not let the side ports plug more than a certain amount anyway...
On the other hand, all dino oils degrade the same because they are of poorer quality and higher volatility. This brings certainty for Mazda... better safe on inferior oil, than sorry in few cases running synthetics (maybe?). Also remember: whatever they recommend has to get them through the warranty, period - after that, they can only hope your engine will self-destruct so that you have to buy another one or fix it for lots of money ;o) In this scenario, dino oil fits better again - will be OK for the warranty but the engine will have less protection, hence more chances to fail when the warranty is over. Anybody plans to sue Mazda when their 70,000 mile engine needs a rebuilt because it ran on the thin "recommended" 5W20 dino oil? Good luck winning that one... Do any of you guys see the added reasons why Mazda would softly deny synthetics?
Valvoline are correct but they just play the uncertainty in the definition of synthetic in the US... I use their "synthetic blend" nevertheless, just not the 5W20 grade... and I change it at 3000 miles, just in case. It is cheap enough to make me trust that it does not have any real synthetics (Gr IV and V) so it is essentially a lower volatility dino oil, which is fine with me (I'm playing on the safe side). Fuel dilution seems major for our engines and any oil will suffer because of that anyway, hence my short changing interval. Synthetics will be no different, so I advice to follow the "severe schedule" even when running them (yes, it seems like a waste of money, but gasoline in oil can cause problems that dwarf the extra money spent on more often changes, so... make your choice wisely). Professionals recommend to change dino and synthetics following the same schedule. The oil is changed because it contains too much gasoline and too many particulates (metal shavings and soot) at he end of its life. It is changed way before base stock degrades (unless you run oils from the '50-'60s) and the variance is purely based on engine design (and this is why I don't feel comfy about how much gasoline the Renesis dumps in the oil). Also, most deposits in combustion chambers come from the gasoline, not the oil. Oil matters because it can help clean some of those or not, depending on its additives (which are the same in dino and synthetics, on broad scale, there are no "special" additives that go only in synthetics).
It is all a grey area, hopefully someone here can post the photos required to convince the "nay" sayers, then the rest of us can make an educated choice (as opposed to an wobbly guess...).
So, which synthetic was proven to be fine? Photo of the ports of the engine required ! Enough theory already. We need real proof after 27 pages of just words...
PS want low deposits? run a good brand gas (Chevron, Shell or BP) and maybe add FP60. want extra protection? use premix with no additives oils (monograde, used in the '40s, pure heavy bright stock oil - in Walmart, Accel SAE30 Non-detergent motor oil). search this forum on either option, as they are not relevant to this thread. Some don't like the premix though.
There are many theories as to why synthetics should not be used in rotaries. The old seals in RX7 seems the only proven one - material incompatibility with the Group V esters, not the PAO. Question is, what happens when oils degrade? Could it be that some synthetics make gummy stuff? Maybe - but which oils do it? Nobody knows... To me, the story seems to be based on few unrelated data. I've seen some photos of residue found in the ports of an engine using synthetic... don't remember which one, probably it was not mentioned.
The US market for oils is confused - everything from Group III, IV and V are "synthetics." Do all degrade the same? Guess not... hence the possible reason Mazda sums them all up and makes a weak warning about "synthetics." Can they cancel your warranty if you use synthetics? No, because it is not specified in the manual. Dealers and other can advice whatever they feel like (pro or against), but for the consumer, if it is not in the manual the car came with, it is not binding in a court of law (so you are "legally safe" with synthetics because the manual did not say anything about denying your warranty claim due to it).
But which synthetic to use? If people used a specific synthetic oil and took the engine apart to find it clean, then they should just say "This BRAND of synthetic is OK in Renesis." Mazda cannot recommend different brands of synthetic for legal reasons, but people could. So, whomever has the data to back it up, please claim in this thread that a specific synthetic is OK, post the picture of your engine taken apart, and everything will be clear The "engine runs fine" means nothing - it will not run fine when the gummy stuff will block most of the side ports, which is so extreme... probably driving the car hard (to keep the carbon deposits low) will not let the side ports plug more than a certain amount anyway...
On the other hand, all dino oils degrade the same because they are of poorer quality and higher volatility. This brings certainty for Mazda... better safe on inferior oil, than sorry in few cases running synthetics (maybe?). Also remember: whatever they recommend has to get them through the warranty, period - after that, they can only hope your engine will self-destruct so that you have to buy another one or fix it for lots of money ;o) In this scenario, dino oil fits better again - will be OK for the warranty but the engine will have less protection, hence more chances to fail when the warranty is over. Anybody plans to sue Mazda when their 70,000 mile engine needs a rebuilt because it ran on the thin "recommended" 5W20 dino oil? Good luck winning that one... Do any of you guys see the added reasons why Mazda would softly deny synthetics?
Valvoline are correct but they just play the uncertainty in the definition of synthetic in the US... I use their "synthetic blend" nevertheless, just not the 5W20 grade... and I change it at 3000 miles, just in case. It is cheap enough to make me trust that it does not have any real synthetics (Gr IV and V) so it is essentially a lower volatility dino oil, which is fine with me (I'm playing on the safe side). Fuel dilution seems major for our engines and any oil will suffer because of that anyway, hence my short changing interval. Synthetics will be no different, so I advice to follow the "severe schedule" even when running them (yes, it seems like a waste of money, but gasoline in oil can cause problems that dwarf the extra money spent on more often changes, so... make your choice wisely). Professionals recommend to change dino and synthetics following the same schedule. The oil is changed because it contains too much gasoline and too many particulates (metal shavings and soot) at he end of its life. It is changed way before base stock degrades (unless you run oils from the '50-'60s) and the variance is purely based on engine design (and this is why I don't feel comfy about how much gasoline the Renesis dumps in the oil). Also, most deposits in combustion chambers come from the gasoline, not the oil. Oil matters because it can help clean some of those or not, depending on its additives (which are the same in dino and synthetics, on broad scale, there are no "special" additives that go only in synthetics).
It is all a grey area, hopefully someone here can post the photos required to convince the "nay" sayers, then the rest of us can make an educated choice (as opposed to an wobbly guess...).
So, which synthetic was proven to be fine? Photo of the ports of the engine required ! Enough theory already. We need real proof after 27 pages of just words...
PS want low deposits? run a good brand gas (Chevron, Shell or BP) and maybe add FP60. want extra protection? use premix with no additives oils (monograde, used in the '40s, pure heavy bright stock oil - in Walmart, Accel SAE30 Non-detergent motor oil). search this forum on either option, as they are not relevant to this thread. Some don't like the premix though.
You seen pictures of gunk build up in the engine that use Synthetic? Guess what, I've seen the same thing but with Dino. not in person, saw it on the internet. so whats your point ?
Mazda use 5w20 because thats what Ford use, so their emissions look *better*, and whatever that CAFE reports. Remember the rest of the world use 5w30.
The Rx7 seal problem was like how many years ago ? how could people still afraid of that ? I see that problem to be on the Mazda side, more than Oil. It was obvious that Mazda did not *fully tested* their product before they pushed it out to the market
Mazda deny Synthetic for ALL OF their cars. including piston counterparts. does that mean Synthetic is Bad? you have to understand, this is a business. Mazda is a pretty small company(when comparing the big guys), They have to do whatever it takes to minimize their risk. Less possbiblites, less customer support cost. Thats a fact. All industries use this rule.
I might be the first one to post my engine's picture, synthetic oil only engine. but that will not happen for another 2 years (or as soon as I reach 60 K miles, whichever comes first)
We will just see what is going to happen.
Last edited by nycgps; 05-01-2007 at 08:56 PM.
05-01-2007, 08:46 PM
#402
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I have seen some pretty nice gunk build up in engines before synthetics were easily available to the public.
Happens(ed) a lot out here. Overheat your engine, instant gunk as the oil overheated too.
Newer engines don't overheat like in the olden days, but no oil changes, or few changes will accumulate gunk in the engine.
Back to the earlier point that all Dino oils degrade the same, yes that is probably true. But we are talking about 5w20 here, and most agree it is probably at least partially synthetic to provide the film strength.
So we are back to where we started.
So are partially synthetic oils safer? I use synthetic (RP) and change at 3,000 miles. The synthetic because of it's film strength (and it gets hot here!), and the 3000 mile interval for the 50% clean up we get when we change oils.
I think an answer will comes when someone scopes their current engine or looks at a tear down (as you suggest). There are several folks on this board getting to that point now.
Hey, and use paragraphs so I don't lose my place! I have fingerprints all over my monitor now! I feel like a first grader....
Happens(ed) a lot out here. Overheat your engine, instant gunk as the oil overheated too.
Newer engines don't overheat like in the olden days, but no oil changes, or few changes will accumulate gunk in the engine.
Back to the earlier point that all Dino oils degrade the same, yes that is probably true. But we are talking about 5w20 here, and most agree it is probably at least partially synthetic to provide the film strength.
So we are back to where we started.
So are partially synthetic oils safer? I use synthetic (RP) and change at 3,000 miles. The synthetic because of it's film strength (and it gets hot here!), and the 3000 mile interval for the 50% clean up we get when we change oils.
I think an answer will comes when someone scopes their current engine or looks at a tear down (as you suggest). There are several folks on this board getting to that point now.
Hey, and use paragraphs so I don't lose my place! I have fingerprints all over my monitor now! I feel like a first grader....
05-01-2007, 09:15 PM
#403
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And how exactly you derived that gasoline should not ignite in a tank?!? Don't you smell it? Or you think you are smelling the liquid, not the vapours? The gasoline will ignite in a tank because the tank is filled at equilibrium with vapours, that should ignite, as I already explained. Read again, slooowly, ................ and leave the matches somewhere safe.
Since googling seems such a challenge, read this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combustion
or, the following paragraph on the combustion of liquids even saves you the click:
"Liquid fuels
Combustion of a liquid fuel in an oxidizing atmosphere actually happens in the gas phase. It is the vapour that burns, not the liquid. Therefore, a liquid will normally catch fire only above a certain temperature, its flash point. The flash point of a liquid fuel is the lowest temperature at which it can form an ignitable mix with air. It is also the minimum temperature at which there is enough evaporated fuel in the air to start combustion."
Feel free to dispute this with the scientific community based on your great understanding of elementary physics - as I said, if you make it through your gasoline experiment, the Nobel awaits you in Sweden :o)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
PS who exactly forgot and should remember that the rest of the world uses 5W30? I guess not me, because I already said that I DON'T use 5W20 (so maybe I use 5W30, or maybe even 10W40, but I don't want to share the secret here :o) )
Still waiting for the necessary pictures in this thread... Anybody (except Mazda, that has pictures of damaging gunk already)? Two more years....
Since googling seems such a challenge, read this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combustion
or, the following paragraph on the combustion of liquids even saves you the click:
"Liquid fuels
Combustion of a liquid fuel in an oxidizing atmosphere actually happens in the gas phase. It is the vapour that burns, not the liquid. Therefore, a liquid will normally catch fire only above a certain temperature, its flash point. The flash point of a liquid fuel is the lowest temperature at which it can form an ignitable mix with air. It is also the minimum temperature at which there is enough evaporated fuel in the air to start combustion."
Feel free to dispute this with the scientific community based on your great understanding of elementary physics - as I said, if you make it through your gasoline experiment, the Nobel awaits you in Sweden :o)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
PS who exactly forgot and should remember that the rest of the world uses 5W30? I guess not me, because I already said that I DON'T use 5W20 (so maybe I use 5W30, or maybe even 10W40, but I don't want to share the secret here :o) )
Still waiting for the necessary pictures in this thread... Anybody (except Mazda, that has pictures of damaging gunk already)? Two more years....
05-03-2007, 06:41 PM
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Holy crap this sucks! The debate on oils blows! Here I am with a car that I need to buy oil for in order to maintain oil in it and I don't know what I should really get! 
I would assume it is safe to get the recommended oil, so I will stick with that for now...but 27 pages....OMG! I ran RP religously in my previous car, but being new to rotaries makes this so difficult. Seems like you pretty much just have to pick a side and jump in feet first....all the while hoping you made the right decision...but....oh well.
I would assume it is safe to get the recommended oil, so I will stick with that for now...but 27 pages....OMG! I ran RP religously in my previous car, but being new to rotaries makes this so difficult. Seems like you pretty much just have to pick a side and jump in feet first....all the while hoping you made the right decision...but....oh well.
05-03-2007, 06:53 PM
#405
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This is actually one of the better debates you will find on the RX-8 forum!!!
But in any case, like many of us here, whether you choose Dino or Syn, I say go with a heavier weight oil in the summer, and ignore Mazda's the 5W20 suggestion.
I use 10W30 Penzoil Platinum here in hot-assed Arizona... I can't vouch for what to use in the colder climates... But more importantly:
My lord people, do your research on physics and chemistry before posting ridiculous claims that we spend 10+ posts on resolving everytime...
(i.e. thanks again bxb40 and RG for keeping the B.S. levels down)
-C
But in any case, like many of us here, whether you choose Dino or Syn, I say go with a heavier weight oil in the summer, and ignore Mazda's the 5W20 suggestion.
I use 10W30 Penzoil Platinum here in hot-assed Arizona... I can't vouch for what to use in the colder climates... But more importantly:
My lord people, do your research on physics and chemistry before posting ridiculous claims that we spend 10+ posts on resolving everytime...
(i.e. thanks again bxb40 and RG for keeping the B.S. levels down)
-C
05-03-2007, 08:08 PM
#406
Registered
Originally Posted by 2k4_8
Holy crap this sucks! The debate on oils blows! Here I am with a car that I need to buy oil for in order to maintain oil in it and I don't know what I should really get! I would assume it is safe to get the recommended oil, so I will stick with that for now...but 27 pages....OMG! I ran RP religously in my previous car, but being new to rotaries makes this so difficult. Seems like you pretty much just have to pick a side and jump in feet first....all the while hoping you made the right decision...but....oh well.
I would assume it is safe to get the recommended oil, so I will stick with that for now...but 27 pages....OMG! I ran RP religously in my previous car, but being new to rotaries makes this so difficult. Seems like you pretty much just have to pick a side and jump in feet first....all the while hoping you made the right decision...but....oh well.
05-03-2007, 08:34 PM
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wow.... dino vs. synthetic.... 5w20 vs. 5w30.....
my head is spinning.....
I use regular Mazda 5w20 oil, and change it about every 2k miles.... plus it doesn't get that hot in Michigan anyway....
my head is spinning.....
I use regular Mazda 5w20 oil, and change it about every 2k miles.... plus it doesn't get that hot in Michigan anyway....
05-04-2007, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Chamberlin
This is actually one of the better debates you will find on the RX-8 forum!!!
But in any case, like many of us here, whether you choose Dino or Syn, I say go with a heavier weight oil in the summer, and ignore Mazda's the 5W20 suggestion.
I use 10W30 Penzoil Platinum here in hot-assed Arizona... I can't vouch for what to use in the colder climates... But more importantly:
My lord people, do your research on physics and chemistry before posting ridiculous claims that we spend 10+ posts on resolving everytime...
(i.e. thanks again bxb40 and RG for keeping the B.S. levels down)
-C
But in any case, like many of us here, whether you choose Dino or Syn, I say go with a heavier weight oil in the summer, and ignore Mazda's the 5W20 suggestion.
I use 10W30 Penzoil Platinum here in hot-assed Arizona... I can't vouch for what to use in the colder climates... But more importantly:
My lord people, do your research on physics and chemistry before posting ridiculous claims that we spend 10+ posts on resolving everytime...
(i.e. thanks again bxb40 and RG for keeping the B.S. levels down)
-C
RG-Do you use just a standard RP or the RP RE
05-04-2007, 02:46 PM
#409
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From Mazda's Party race site: http://partyrace.nr-a.com/preparation/rx8.html
EDGE 0W-40 The oil film which is strengthened by カストロール individual synthetic oil technology, from the urban district to long cruising on the highway, shows the highest engine protective efficiency under all operational circumstances. It is low, power loss of the engine is held down to minimum viscosity conversion with the combination of the high quality additive, engine original power is pulled out. It maintains inside the engine always, cleanly extends the life of the engine. API:SM/CF SAE:0W-40 ACEA:A3/B3/B4 type: All the synthetic oils
EDGE 0W-40 The oil film which is strengthened by カストロール individual synthetic oil technology, from the urban district to long cruising on the highway, shows the highest engine protective efficiency under all operational circumstances. It is low, power loss of the engine is held down to minimum viscosity conversion with the combination of the high quality additive, engine original power is pulled out. It maintains inside the engine always, cleanly extends the life of the engine. API:SM/CF SAE:0W-40 ACEA:A3/B3/B4 type: All the synthetic oils
05-04-2007, 06:32 PM
#411
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Originally Posted by 2k4_8
I know it is a good debate...that is what makes it suck.
RG-Do you use just a standard RP or the RP RE
RG-Do you use just a standard RP or the RP RE
05-10-2007, 05:23 PM
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Today I exchanged e-mails with powertrain engineers from the Mazda Japan office....
They say that 5w20 mineral oil is OK to use...
Also, they don't recomend synthetics.... but people use it.....
Don't waste your money on synthetics, especially if you change the oil frequently... 2k to 3k mile intervals....
They say that 5w20 mineral oil is OK to use...
Also, they don't recomend synthetics.... but people use it.....
Don't waste your money on synthetics, especially if you change the oil frequently... 2k to 3k mile intervals....
05-10-2007, 06:28 PM
#416
Today I exchanged e-mails with powertrain engineers from the Mazda Japan office....
They say that 5w20 mineral oil is OK to use...
Also, they don't recomend synthetics.... but people use it.....
Don't waste your money on synthetics, especially if you change the oil frequently... 2k to 3k mile intervals....
They say that 5w20 mineral oil is OK to use...
Also, they don't recomend synthetics.... but people use it.....
Don't waste your money on synthetics, especially if you change the oil frequently... 2k to 3k mile intervals....
Paul.
05-10-2007, 06:38 PM
#417
Registered
Um yeah. Ignorance shines again! In case you guys forgot, when I talked to Mr. Yamaguchi-san (bigtime rotary engine boss in Japan) at Sevenstock a year and a half ago, we discussed synthetics and why they say not to use them even though they are fine. Keep in mind he personally also had a hand in the formulation of Idemitsu.
Save your engine. It's only your car's heart. That's not important though. We all know that if we needed a blood transfusion that we'd let the doctors use the non tested cheaper blood with more impurities in it rather than the good stuff that has been screened and free from diseases and known to be safe. If it's cheaper why not?! It's only blood! It's all the same. It all does the same thing. Don't listen to the morons who think synthetic is not good stuff. It's great stuff. It's better (as long as it's not Mobil 1 synthetic). They have an additive in their synthetic that doesn't seem to get along with rotaries in the longterm. This has nothing to do with the fact that the base stock is synthetic. It's an additive causing the issues and they only use it in their synthetic line. Mobil 1 is also the most widely used and commonly available synthetic oil in the world so maybe now some people can put 2 and 2 together to see why Mazda says what they do. They assume people are morons (because they are!) so they say the safest thing they can say and then stick to it regardless of what is really going on. They can't just single out one oil. They'd get sued over it. In a time when you can win a lawsuit for spilling your own hot coffee in your lap or when judges will sue drycleaners for millions of dollars over a pair of pants, is it really so hard to see why they'd make a blanket statement to protect themselves?
This argument will end when all of these naysayers finally get a clue and learn something instead of listening to information designed around appeasing people who can't make decisions on their own. If you believed what a "powertrain engineer" said, that's because he wants you to because he doesn't want to explain the how's and why's of their statement. That requires effort and there's no guarantee that you'll understand him anyways. They assume you probably can't figure out why they say what they do and they're probably right. I've talked to the highest person in the rotary land about them any let's just say that I'm quite content on my choice of synthetics. I'm not saying don't use conventional oils. It's your engine. I could really give a crap if you don't take care of it. Don't ever change your oil while you're at it. Pour sand in it. I don't care. I just want the bs about not using it to finally stop and all of the uneducated people to stop passing on false information. You guys have been disproven in a very impressive way and it's time to concede defeat. You have been. Again, use what you want. I don't care. Just stop spreading false info. When even the highest rotary person in the world knows that they are safe, any other arguments after that are pretty much a waste of time.
I like how synthetics are too expensive for some people yet an oil change with more expensive oil is still less than the cost of a full tank of gas. You will refill over 10 times before you change your oil again and for some more than that. Put things into perspective people. It's not a budget concern for anyone. Even if it is a concern, remember that your gasoline dumps more carbon inside your combustion chamber than oil does so think about that if you are content to use the "synthetic doesn't burn clean" card!
Save your engine. It's only your car's heart. That's not important though. We all know that if we needed a blood transfusion that we'd let the doctors use the non tested cheaper blood with more impurities in it rather than the good stuff that has been screened and free from diseases and known to be safe. If it's cheaper why not?! It's only blood! It's all the same. It all does the same thing. Don't listen to the morons who think synthetic is not good stuff. It's great stuff. It's better (as long as it's not Mobil 1 synthetic). They have an additive in their synthetic that doesn't seem to get along with rotaries in the longterm. This has nothing to do with the fact that the base stock is synthetic. It's an additive causing the issues and they only use it in their synthetic line. Mobil 1 is also the most widely used and commonly available synthetic oil in the world so maybe now some people can put 2 and 2 together to see why Mazda says what they do. They assume people are morons (because they are!) so they say the safest thing they can say and then stick to it regardless of what is really going on. They can't just single out one oil. They'd get sued over it. In a time when you can win a lawsuit for spilling your own hot coffee in your lap or when judges will sue drycleaners for millions of dollars over a pair of pants, is it really so hard to see why they'd make a blanket statement to protect themselves?
This argument will end when all of these naysayers finally get a clue and learn something instead of listening to information designed around appeasing people who can't make decisions on their own. If you believed what a "powertrain engineer" said, that's because he wants you to because he doesn't want to explain the how's and why's of their statement. That requires effort and there's no guarantee that you'll understand him anyways. They assume you probably can't figure out why they say what they do and they're probably right. I've talked to the highest person in the rotary land about them any let's just say that I'm quite content on my choice of synthetics. I'm not saying don't use conventional oils. It's your engine. I could really give a crap if you don't take care of it. Don't ever change your oil while you're at it. Pour sand in it. I don't care. I just want the bs about not using it to finally stop and all of the uneducated people to stop passing on false information. You guys have been disproven in a very impressive way and it's time to concede defeat. You have been. Again, use what you want. I don't care. Just stop spreading false info. When even the highest rotary person in the world knows that they are safe, any other arguments after that are pretty much a waste of time.
I like how synthetics are too expensive for some people yet an oil change with more expensive oil is still less than the cost of a full tank of gas. You will refill over 10 times before you change your oil again and for some more than that. Put things into perspective people. It's not a budget concern for anyone. Even if it is a concern, remember that your gasoline dumps more carbon inside your combustion chamber than oil does so think about that if you are content to use the "synthetic doesn't burn clean" card!
05-10-2007, 08:26 PM
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Um yeah. Ignorance shines again! In case you guys forgot, when I talked to Mr. Yamaguchi-san (bigtime rotary engine boss in Japan) at Sevenstock a year and a half ago, we discussed synthetics and why they say not to use them even though they are fine. Keep in mind he personally also had a hand in the formulation of Idemitsu.
Save your engine. It's only your car's heart. That's not important though. We all know that if we needed a blood transfusion that we'd let the doctors use the non tested cheaper blood with more impurities in it rather than the good stuff that has been screened and free from diseases and known to be safe. If it's cheaper why not?! It's only blood! It's all the same. It all does the same thing. Don't listen to the morons who think synthetic is not good stuff. It's great stuff. It's better (as long as it's not Mobil 1 synthetic). They have an additive in their synthetic that doesn't seem to get along with rotaries in the longterm. This has nothing to do with the fact that the base stock is synthetic. It's an additive causing the issues and they only use it in their synthetic line. Mobil 1 is also the most widely used and commonly available synthetic oil in the world so maybe now some people can put 2 and 2 together to see why Mazda says what they do. They assume people are morons (because they are!) so they say the safest thing they can say and then stick to it regardless of what is really going on. They can't just single out one oil. They'd get sued over it. In a time when you can win a lawsuit for spilling your own hot coffee in your lap or when judges will sue drycleaners for millions of dollars over a pair of pants, is it really so hard to see why they'd make a blanket statement to protect themselves?
This argument will end when all of these naysayers finally get a clue and learn something instead of listening to information designed around appeasing people who can't make decisions on their own. If you believed what a "powertrain engineer" said, that's because he wants you to because he doesn't want to explain the how's and why's of their statement. That requires effort and there's no guarantee that you'll understand him anyways. They assume you probably can't figure out why they say what they do and they're probably right. I've talked to the highest person in the rotary land about them any let's just say that I'm quite content on my choice of synthetics. I'm not saying don't use conventional oils. It's your engine. I could really give a crap if you don't take care of it. Don't ever change your oil while you're at it. Pour sand in it. I don't care. I just want the bs about not using it to finally stop and all of the uneducated people to stop passing on false information. You guys have been disproven in a very impressive way and it's time to concede defeat. You have been. Again, use what you want. I don't care. Just stop spreading false info. When even the highest rotary person in the world knows that they are safe, any other arguments after that are pretty much a waste of time.
I like how synthetics are too expensive for some people yet an oil change with more expensive oil is still less than the cost of a full tank of gas. You will refill over 10 times before you change your oil again and for some more than that. Put things into perspective people. It's not a budget concern for anyone. Even if it is a concern, remember that your gasoline dumps more carbon inside your combustion chamber than oil does so think about that if you are content to use the "synthetic doesn't burn clean" card!
Save your engine. It's only your car's heart. That's not important though. We all know that if we needed a blood transfusion that we'd let the doctors use the non tested cheaper blood with more impurities in it rather than the good stuff that has been screened and free from diseases and known to be safe. If it's cheaper why not?! It's only blood! It's all the same. It all does the same thing. Don't listen to the morons who think synthetic is not good stuff. It's great stuff. It's better (as long as it's not Mobil 1 synthetic). They have an additive in their synthetic that doesn't seem to get along with rotaries in the longterm. This has nothing to do with the fact that the base stock is synthetic. It's an additive causing the issues and they only use it in their synthetic line. Mobil 1 is also the most widely used and commonly available synthetic oil in the world so maybe now some people can put 2 and 2 together to see why Mazda says what they do. They assume people are morons (because they are!) so they say the safest thing they can say and then stick to it regardless of what is really going on. They can't just single out one oil. They'd get sued over it. In a time when you can win a lawsuit for spilling your own hot coffee in your lap or when judges will sue drycleaners for millions of dollars over a pair of pants, is it really so hard to see why they'd make a blanket statement to protect themselves?
This argument will end when all of these naysayers finally get a clue and learn something instead of listening to information designed around appeasing people who can't make decisions on their own. If you believed what a "powertrain engineer" said, that's because he wants you to because he doesn't want to explain the how's and why's of their statement. That requires effort and there's no guarantee that you'll understand him anyways. They assume you probably can't figure out why they say what they do and they're probably right. I've talked to the highest person in the rotary land about them any let's just say that I'm quite content on my choice of synthetics. I'm not saying don't use conventional oils. It's your engine. I could really give a crap if you don't take care of it. Don't ever change your oil while you're at it. Pour sand in it. I don't care. I just want the bs about not using it to finally stop and all of the uneducated people to stop passing on false information. You guys have been disproven in a very impressive way and it's time to concede defeat. You have been. Again, use what you want. I don't care. Just stop spreading false info. When even the highest rotary person in the world knows that they are safe, any other arguments after that are pretty much a waste of time.
I like how synthetics are too expensive for some people yet an oil change with more expensive oil is still less than the cost of a full tank of gas. You will refill over 10 times before you change your oil again and for some more than that. Put things into perspective people. It's not a budget concern for anyone. Even if it is a concern, remember that your gasoline dumps more carbon inside your combustion chamber than oil does so think about that if you are content to use the "synthetic doesn't burn clean" card!
Hmm... a little arrogant, don't you think. I'm guess you are just a Genius... no offence please... I'm just trying to make sence of all of this...
I guess there is a few selected people that know the truth... I'm just on the same boat as many others here trying to learn more about the rotary engine...
People choose mineral or synthetic by what it's recomended by the manufacturer or what an expert like you has to say on an internet forum. If synthetics are so good for the Rx8 (or rotaries in general), and if Yamaguchi-san is such a "big shot" in Mazda, why doesn't he make sure everybody follows his recomendation?
05-10-2007, 08:29 PM
#419
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05-10-2007, 10:27 PM
#420
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Hmm... a little arrogant, don't you think. I'm guess you are just a Genius... no offence please... I'm just trying to make sence of all of this...
I guess there is a few selected people that know the truth... I'm just on the same boat as many others here trying to learn more about the rotary engine...
People choose mineral or synthetic by what it's recomended by the manufacturer or what an expert like you has to say on an internet forum. If synthetics are so good for the Rx8 (or rotaries in general), and if Yamaguchi-san is such a "big shot" in Mazda, why doesn't he make sure everybody follows his recomendation?
I guess there is a few selected people that know the truth... I'm just on the same boat as many others here trying to learn more about the rotary engine...
People choose mineral or synthetic by what it's recomended by the manufacturer or what an expert like you has to say on an internet forum. If synthetics are so good for the Rx8 (or rotaries in general), and if Yamaguchi-san is such a "big shot" in Mazda, why doesn't he make sure everybody follows his recomendation?
Guys like us like to defy authority or the established norm. We showed this by buying a rotary powered car in the first place.
We believe engineered synthetic oils are 'the' lubricant for our demading and unique rotary engines; on a chemical and physical level.
We are challenging the manufacture's quoted nay-saying because we know they are simply too lazy to research all the synthetic products out there for use in the Renesis; for laziness reasons, for legal reasons, for scapegoat reasons, for political reasons. Not for scientific reasons.
Yes, you are right, apparently only a 'select few' know and believe the truth. Why don't you do your research, and help make it a 'select many'?
-C
p.s. until Mazda has anything official to say about this debate, howa 'bout we lock this??? Or is it just too much fun to re-hash everything every few days?
05-11-2007, 06:27 AM
#421
Today I exchanged e-mails with powertrain engineers from the Mazda Japan office....
They say that 5w20 mineral oil is OK to use...
Also, they don't recomend synthetics.... but people use it.....
Don't waste your money on synthetics, especially if you change the oil frequently... 2k to 3k mile intervals....
They say that 5w20 mineral oil is OK to use...
Also, they don't recomend synthetics.... but people use it.....
Don't waste your money on synthetics, especially if you change the oil frequently... 2k to 3k mile intervals....
and why would they team up with Idemitsu then ? yeah I know all these race engines rebuild alot. but if Synthetics has no benefit, do you think Mazda will be dumb enough to waste their money on it ?
It's not arrogance. It is simply exhaustion with the topic. Here it is in a nutshell, and in short, succinct sentences.
Guys like us like to defy authority or the established norm. We showed this by buying a rotary powered car in the first place.
We believe engineered synthetic oils are 'the' lubricant for our demading and unique rotary engines; on a chemical and physical level.
We are challenging the manufacture's quoted nay-saying because we know they are simply too lazy to research all the synthetic products out there for use in the Renesis; for laziness reasons, for legal reasons, for scapegoat reasons, for political reasons. Not for scientific reasons.
Yes, you are right, apparently only a 'select few' know and believe the truth. Why don't you do your research, and help make it a 'select many'?
-C
p.s. until Mazda has anything official to say about this debate, howa 'bout we lock this??? Or is it just too much fun to re-hash everything every few days?
Guys like us like to defy authority or the established norm. We showed this by buying a rotary powered car in the first place.
We believe engineered synthetic oils are 'the' lubricant for our demading and unique rotary engines; on a chemical and physical level.
We are challenging the manufacture's quoted nay-saying because we know they are simply too lazy to research all the synthetic products out there for use in the Renesis; for laziness reasons, for legal reasons, for scapegoat reasons, for political reasons. Not for scientific reasons.
Yes, you are right, apparently only a 'select few' know and believe the truth. Why don't you do your research, and help make it a 'select many'?
-C
p.s. until Mazda has anything official to say about this debate, howa 'bout we lock this??? Or is it just too much fun to re-hash everything every few days?
Like I always say, Mazda does NOT recommended the use of aftermarket parts. why no one freaking listen then huh ? sure yeah dont give me BS like *oh because I know it wouldnt cause a problem.* Yeah, I think I can throw the same bullshit that people has about synthetic oil back to them.
I dont have to buy a Rx8, I could've got a KIA ! they still can take me from point A to point B ~ Why would I want to spend double the amount to get my car ? because it has more features and I like it, and Im sure my Rx8 will last longer than a KIA.
what what ? you can get 2 cars for the price of 1 ? sure, but I still like what my car is giving me.
Why are you bashing my car ? Have fun with your KIA
so please dont bash Synthetics, people can use whatever they want.
Last edited by nycgps; 05-13-2007 at 06:18 PM.
05-11-2007, 07:54 AM
#422
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It's not arrogance. It is simply exhaustion with the topic. Here it is in a nutshell, and in short, succinct sentences.
Guys like us like to defy authority or the established norm. We showed this by buying a rotary powered car in the first place.
We believe engineered synthetic oils are 'the' lubricant for our demading and unique rotary engines; on a chemical and physical level.
We are challenging the manufacture's quoted nay-saying because we know they are simply too lazy to research all the synthetic products out there for use in the Renesis; for laziness reasons, for legal reasons, for scapegoat reasons, for political reasons. Not for scientific reasons.
Yes, you are right, apparently only a 'select few' know and believe the truth. Why don't you do your research, and help make it a 'select many'?
-C
p.s. until Mazda has anything official to say about this debate, howa 'bout we lock this??? Or is it just too much fun to re-hash everything every few days?
Guys like us like to defy authority or the established norm. We showed this by buying a rotary powered car in the first place.
We believe engineered synthetic oils are 'the' lubricant for our demading and unique rotary engines; on a chemical and physical level.
We are challenging the manufacture's quoted nay-saying because we know they are simply too lazy to research all the synthetic products out there for use in the Renesis; for laziness reasons, for legal reasons, for scapegoat reasons, for political reasons. Not for scientific reasons.
Yes, you are right, apparently only a 'select few' know and believe the truth. Why don't you do your research, and help make it a 'select many'?
-C
p.s. until Mazda has anything official to say about this debate, howa 'bout we lock this??? Or is it just too much fun to re-hash everything every few days?
05-13-2007, 02:10 PM
#423
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I used to think RG was being arrogant too . Now I know it's something else -Exasperation.
In the 18 months I 've had m 8, Royal Purple's website has had an extensive explanation of why their oil is good for the rotary. It was there then, it's still there now.
I think if they were wrong they'd have been proven wrong and admitted it by now.
But they aren't wrong, and neither is RG.
In the 18 months I 've had m 8, Royal Purple's website has had an extensive explanation of why their oil is good for the rotary. It was there then, it's still there now.
I think if they were wrong they'd have been proven wrong and admitted it by now.
But they aren't wrong, and neither is RG.
05-14-2007, 05:31 PM
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I used to think RG was being arrogant too . Now I know it's something else -Exasperation.
In the 18 months I 've had m 8, Royal Purple's website has had an extensive explanation of why their oil is good for the rotary. It was there then, it's still there now.
I think if they were wrong they'd have been proven wrong and admitted it by now.
But they aren't wrong, and neither is RG.
In the 18 months I 've had m 8, Royal Purple's website has had an extensive explanation of why their oil is good for the rotary. It was there then, it's still there now.
I think if they were wrong they'd have been proven wrong and admitted it by now.
But they aren't wrong, and neither is RG.
05-14-2007, 05:45 PM
#425
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-C