MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

That's what I use.

darkhawk

While I've watched this forum off and on for a little over a year now, I've never posted or registered. It was a great way of getting information. But over the past 8 months I've been really busy with life and haven't had time to check it until recently....which explains my post.

I recently had my oil changed at my Mazda dealer. I almost always bring in the oil I want, but this time I didn't have any but made sure to tell them to put the Full Synthetic into it (it's what I have used since I finished the break in period at around 4000 miles.....Castrol Syntec 10w30 to be exact). I went to pick the car up after hours (after the techs and managers had left) and found they had used the Synthetic blend, and immediately was pissed. Rather than deal with the managers there (which I've butted heads with before about their semi-bad service), I just filled out the questionaire card and stated I wasn't coming back again after this time. Lo and behold I was at work today and my phone rings, and it's the Service manager explaining how he got the card, and that the reason they didn't put the full synthetic in is because Mazda doesn't recommend it. Now this is where I have my problem...


I originally, absolutely hated, imports. I used to be a strict, all-american-muscle car guy. I own a 1967 Mustang, and that alone should say it. Old cars, big engines, low rumbles. (the new muscle cars just aren't for me....) When I got close to graduating college with an engineering degree, I started looking at RX-8's and became rather fascinated in them. After I got my job, I got the nerve to go and test drive, and eventually buy a 2004 RX-8. I loved it from the test drive. Part of the reason for buying it, was the engine warranty I was told it had. Castrol provides a 5 yr/50k mile warranty if you use the normal oil, 10 yr/100k mile warranty if you use the synthetic blend, and 15 yr/150k mile warranty if you use Syntec. If I managed to kill an engine in 15 years or 150k miles, it was worth the extra cost for the syntec in my mind.....

Now I'm being told Synthetic is bad for the engine, and that my Mazda dealer won't put it in. So this leaves me high and dry, and rather pissed. My RX-8 has had no problems, issues, noticeable loss of power, no oil issues (about 1 to 2 quarts every 4 or so gas tanks, depending on how I drive it), nothing to indicate that this Syntec is causing any issues. I'm pushing 55k miles right now on it, and I'll be damned if I'm going to switch from a synthetic oil until I see some hard proof (I'm an engineer. I may not understand everything, but I have a logical way of thinking and processing things) that synthetics cause damage to the engine. After reading this thread, I'm seriously debating switching to Royal Purple as many others have used it, but the fact remains that if Synthetic oil caused serious problems, more people would be having issues at this point. Plain and simple.

Just getting my words in after spending half the day at work reading this thread.

So, all I can say, is synthetic is for my engine.

ASH8

Well Darkhawk you do what you want to do...reality is a little different, and Mazda is not responsible for any BS extended Engine Warranty cover that you have entered into.

1. Mazda Motors Japan have NEVER recommended Fully Synthetic Engine oils for ANY Rotaries....for DOMESTIC every day use.

2. Mazda Australia...same...see bulletin.

3. Mazda Europe...Same...see bulletin.

4. Re-man US RX-8 Engines...see Orange Tag.

The Mazda Dealer in question is technically correct and their procedure is correct.

Mazda in EVERY other country (except the US...until recently) have been consistent in NOT recommending the use of Fully Synthetic engine oils for Rotaries.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

Because thats what Alot of people believes, including you.

Your *reality* might vary cuz you're not on the same boat as us, but Me, and tons of other people have been using Synthetics with Zero problems, and this is *our* reality.

Remember what you've said, you do what you want to do.

and mind if I ask do you have any aftermarket parts in your car ? I bet you do. Jesus christ Mazda does not recommended Aftermarket parts from the very beinging. and maybe you should use nothing but Mazda Oil, cuz thats what Mazda recommends.

rotarygod

I just can't believe people are still trying to claim synthetics shouldn't be used in rotaries. I've long disproved these people and have done it in an impressive way. Ignorance really must be bliss.

They are 100% safe for rotaries. Period. Prove me wrong. I'll wait...

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

I'll answer for them RG

*You do what you want to do*



SynthetiC All da Way Baby !

swoope

iTrader: (5)

that was not on my reman motor in the usa.. and look at the tag.. date are codes the codes are wrong..

beers

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

I prefer your original "un-edited" post to this one.

ASH8

So we toned down the post from the Ugly Arrogant American to a more subdued one.

Frankly RG, I could not care less if you talked to Jesus at "Mazda Japan"and he said that Synthetic are OK...we have to take your word for it.

Tell this GOD to put it in writing...No won't do that, I thought so.

Where is your proof that any of the engine rebuilds in the US 'were or were not' using Synthetics.?
What a phone call to MNAO told you so?

As for the Dumb *** people at Mazda Australia, Europe and the Techs in Japan...well MR Know ALL RG Knows more about rotaries "out of a BOOK" than ALL these who have been in the Industry BEFORE you were an "itch" in your fathers Ball Bag....goes to show the UAA for you again.

swoope

iTrader: (5)

sorry,

did you miss that tag was not on my rebuilt motor in the usa..

btw. i saw the motor come out of the box..

old old bad news.

beers

swoope

iTrader: (5)

and yes i have photos of the apv ports..

beers

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

Hmm

I have little miles on my motor .... as of today I think I only have 27682 on it. and I've been using Synthetic outa those 26682 miles. (cuz I did my first oil change @ 1K miles) I used Castrol Syntec ONCE and thats not really a true Synthetic but the box saids it is and I dunno much about the diffs between Group III/IV/V .... somewhere in the middle of my miles ... but thats about it.


When I got my car I dont even know this site, but I've already decided (back then) that Im just gonna use nothing but Synthetic in my motor. Cuz why ? Synthetic resist heat better. What burn not as clean ? Well I want to know what kind of oil can resist the heat from combustion process.

So, please answer me this question, do you have any aftermarket stuff on your car? Including non-Mazda Oil.

dying_here

ok, sorry to ask this, because its probably covered in this thread but its rather difficult to try to read all 26 pages.

I understand that there is nothing wrong w/ using synthetic oil.. but since I bring my car to the dealer for oil change, im pretty sure they don't use synthetic. should I still use syn oil anyway? is mixing syn and non-syn bad?

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

)#@!$*E!)@Q$*U)#*$#@!Q)*

Its ok to mix Synthetic oil and non-synthetic oil

Next time, Could you please Search ?

ken-x8

I hope this isn't a repost...

I subscribe to Valvoline's race news and car care e-mails. Last week I followed their link on what kind of oil to use in an RX-8. The recommendation was 5w20 full synthetic.

For fun, I then e-mailed Valvoline the following question:

Their reply was:

Maybe Valvoline doesn't know how to spell Renesis, but I have great faith that they know what goes into motor oil.

Continuing the fun (my life is dull - this passes for fun) I e-mailed back thanking them for the response, and also telling them that it's Mazda, not the dealer.

Ken

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

but I dont think MNAO said no to Synthetic oil use at all.

To me, this Mineral vs Synthetic thing is just that Mazda needs to blame on something, and this is a myth that has been going on for years, easiest for people to believe in. there you go.

I have a feeling that if one day Mazda said Synthetic is OK. People still going to say hell no to Synthetic

rotarygod

Valvoline Synthetic is what Rick Engman ran in the Kudzu 4 rotor cars for what it's worth.

Nemesis8

iTrader: (3)

Is the flash point of the synthetic oil higher than regular oil? What are the cons if it fails to fully burn?

ken-x8

They recommend against it. Now, for fun I went through all the material Mazda provided with my car. The no-synth recommendation does not appear in the owner's manual or in the short quick-start (or whatever they call it) booklet. It appears in the orientation video on the DVD. So if you didn't get (or watch) the DVD and didn't hang out on a forum like this, I'm not sure how an ordinary owner would ever hear it.

But the entertaining part of the no-synth recommendation is Valvoline saying that all 5w20 oils contain synthetic base. That makes me feel good on two levels. First, I love contradictions. Second, I use regular 5w20 oil, but knowing there's synthetic in it eases any concern I might have had about the light weight.

Ken

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

Theres no oil can withstand the heat of the combustion process.

Nemesis8

iTrader: (3)

That did not answer my question about the flash point.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

It depends, some can go up to 455

http://www.royalpurple.com/prodsa/rpmoa.html

Well , people said when Synthetic oil burn it will leave ashes.

I dont buy that kind of theory, I have been using it for 28K miles not a single engine problem.

Not that much of miles I know. but still

I will tear my motor down around 60K miles, to *upgrade* and to show the world what is it like inside after 60K miles of Synthetic oil use.

rx7speed

it is but more often then not by only 25* or so

maybe not directly in the combustion area but a lot of that oil rides against the housing itself which doesnt' get near as hot. with that you do stand a chance of oil not getting a full burn.

rotarygod

However synthetics burn off cleaner than conventional oils so that's a moot point anyways.

bxb40

Actually, not much oil "burns" in the engine, Renesis or piston... only whatever can vaporize in the milliseconds the flame front moves through the cylinder, can burn (liquids cannot burn, only gases/vapours of combustible liquids can; evaporation takes time, even at very high temperatures). A very, very small amount. Not even motorcycles burn oil - it gets "spit out" through the exhaust, as a blue mist. In our cars, it gets in the catalyst, where it burns because the stationary time is much longer, and the temps are still high. They do degrade to some extent in the engine chamber, but that's about it. If it would burn, how would it lubricate?!? There are many online sites explaining what happens to the engine oil in the combustion chamber, so if you don't believe me, google it and do some reading (physics first, about the combustion process - find a liquid that burns without evaporation! The Nobel price awaits you ;o)
There are many theories as to why synthetics should not be used in rotaries. The old seals in RX7 seems the only proven one - material incompatibility with the Group V esters, not the PAO. Question is, what happens when oils degrade? Could it be that some synthetics make gummy stuff? Maybe - but which oils do it? Nobody knows... To me, the story seems to be based on few unrelated data. I've seen some photos of residue found in the ports of an engine using synthetic... don't remember which one, probably it was not mentioned.
The US market for oils is confused - everything from Group III, IV and V are "synthetics." Do all degrade the same? Guess not... hence the possible reason Mazda sums them all up and makes a weak warning about "synthetics." Can they cancel your warranty if you use synthetics? No, because it is not specified in the manual. Dealers and other can advice whatever they feel like (pro or against), but for the consumer, if it is not in the manual the car came with, it is not binding in a court of law (so you are "legally safe" with synthetics because the manual did not say anything about denying your warranty claim due to it).
But which synthetic to use? If people used a specific synthetic oil and took the engine apart to find it clean, then they should just say "This BRAND of synthetic is OK in Renesis." Mazda cannot recommend different brands of synthetic for legal reasons, but people could. So, whomever has the data to back it up, please claim in this thread that a specific synthetic is OK, post the picture of your engine taken apart, and everything will be clear The "engine runs fine" means nothing - it will not run fine when the gummy stuff will block most of the side ports, which is so extreme... probably driving the car hard (to keep the carbon deposits low) will not let the side ports plug more than a certain amount anyway...
On the other hand, all dino oils degrade the same because they are of poorer quality and higher volatility. This brings certainty for Mazda... better safe on inferior oil, than sorry in few cases running synthetics (maybe?). Also remember: whatever they recommend has to get them through the warranty, period - after that, they can only hope your engine will self-destruct so that you have to buy another one or fix it for lots of money ;o) In this scenario, dino oil fits better again - will be OK for the warranty but the engine will have less protection, hence more chances to fail when the warranty is over. Anybody plans to sue Mazda when their 70,000 mile engine needs a rebuilt because it ran on the thin "recommended" 5W20 dino oil? Good luck winning that one... Do any of you guys see the added reasons why Mazda would softly deny synthetics?
Valvoline are correct but they just play the uncertainty in the definition of synthetic in the US... I use their "synthetic blend" nevertheless, just not the 5W20 grade... and I change it at 3000 miles, just in case. It is cheap enough to make me trust that it does not have any real synthetics (Gr IV and V) so it is essentially a lower volatility dino oil, which is fine with me (I'm playing on the safe side). Fuel dilution seems major for our engines and any oil will suffer because of that anyway, hence my short changing interval. Synthetics will be no different, so I advice to follow the "severe schedule" even when running them (yes, it seems like a waste of money, but gasoline in oil can cause problems that dwarf the extra money spent on more often changes, so... make your choice wisely). Professionals recommend to change dino and synthetics following the same schedule. The oil is changed because it contains too much gasoline and too many particulates (metal shavings and soot) at he end of its life. It is changed way before base stock degrades (unless you run oils from the '50-'60s) and the variance is purely based on engine design (and this is why I don't feel comfy about how much gasoline the Renesis dumps in the oil). Also, most deposits in combustion chambers come from the gasoline, not the oil. Oil matters because it can help clean some of those or not, depending on its additives (which are the same in dino and synthetics, on broad scale, there are no "special" additives that go only in synthetics).
It is all a grey area, hopefully someone here can post the photos required to convince the "nay" sayers, then the rest of us can make an educated choice (as opposed to an wobbly guess...).
So, which synthetic was proven to be fine? Photo of the ports of the engine required ! Enough theory already. We need real proof after 27 pages of just words...

PS want low deposits? run a good brand gas (Chevron, Shell or BP) and maybe add FP60. want extra protection? use premix with no additives oils (monograde, used in the '40s, pure heavy bright stock oil - in Walmart, Accel SAE30 Non-detergent motor oil). search this forum on either option, as they are not relevant to this thread. Some don't like the premix though.