water/methanol injection
04-06-2009, 09:53 AM
#202
Registered
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,401
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
to finish this thread off, i finally to dyno my car to find out the jetting size for my set up. remember, i used the AEM water/methanol KIT.
in the dyno, without it, i make 288.36 whp....that's running around 7 - 8 PSI, it's bouncing up and down...i am usind meduim size of jetting which is "310 CC".
when we injected the methanol (50/50), the dyno goes to 270 whp....and the graph wasn't smooth at all. there are a lot of waves. we tried to play with controller, start psi, 7 psi, and full PSi is 20, still 273 whp. then we raised the boost to 10 psi, it pushes 314 whp....my tuner said that the Jetting size is too big, and he told me that the rotary doesn't need a big jet size. i decided to change to small one (130 CC), and put the start psi as 6 psi, and full PSi as 15 psi, it runs smooth up to 8K RPM.
i just wanna let people know that it's better to start the small jet to find out about the need of the car. what happened was since i run 50/50, on certain RPM, it runs rich, and my tuner didn't recommend me tune with it because you never know if there is a short circuit, defective pump, or clogged jet, you engine will be blown.
conclusion, i estimate that i willl have no problem to get to 300 whp with 8 psi with injection. i will have to run it again in dyno to find out about the better jet.
steven
in the dyno, without it, i make 288.36 whp....that's running around 7 - 8 PSI, it's bouncing up and down...i am usind meduim size of jetting which is "310 CC".
when we injected the methanol (50/50), the dyno goes to 270 whp....and the graph wasn't smooth at all. there are a lot of waves. we tried to play with controller, start psi, 7 psi, and full PSi is 20, still 273 whp. then we raised the boost to 10 psi, it pushes 314 whp....my tuner said that the Jetting size is too big, and he told me that the rotary doesn't need a big jet size. i decided to change to small one (130 CC), and put the start psi as 6 psi, and full PSi as 15 psi, it runs smooth up to 8K RPM.
i just wanna let people know that it's better to start the small jet to find out about the need of the car. what happened was since i run 50/50, on certain RPM, it runs rich, and my tuner didn't recommend me tune with it because you never know if there is a short circuit, defective pump, or clogged jet, you engine will be blown.
conclusion, i estimate that i willl have no problem to get to 300 whp with 8 psi with injection. i will have to run it again in dyno to find out about the better jet.
steven
04-06-2009, 10:19 AM
#203
BDC Motorsports
to finish this thread off, i finally to dyno my car to find out the jetting size for my set up. remember, i used the AEM water/methanol KIT.
in the dyno, without it, i make 288.36 whp....that's running around 7 - 8 PSI, it's bouncing up and down...i am usind meduim size of jetting which is "310 CC".
when we injected the methanol (50/50), the dyno goes to 270 whp....and the graph wasn't smooth at all. there are a lot of waves. we tried to play with controller, start psi, 7 psi, and full PSi is 20, still 273 whp. then we raised the boost to 10 psi, it pushes 314 whp....my tuner said that the Jetting size is too big, and he told me that the rotary doesn't need a big jet size. i decided to change to small one (130 CC), and put the start psi as 6 psi, and full PSi as 15 psi, it runs smooth up to 8K RPM.
i just wanna let people know that it's better to start the small jet to find out about the need of the car. what happened was since i run 50/50, on certain RPM, it runs rich, and my tuner didn't recommend me tune with it because you never know if there is a short circuit, defective pump, or clogged jet, you engine will be blown.
conclusion, i estimate that i willl have no problem to get to 300 whp with 8 psi with injection. i will have to run it again in dyno to find out about the better jet.
steven
in the dyno, without it, i make 288.36 whp....that's running around 7 - 8 PSI, it's bouncing up and down...i am usind meduim size of jetting which is "310 CC".
when we injected the methanol (50/50), the dyno goes to 270 whp....and the graph wasn't smooth at all. there are a lot of waves. we tried to play with controller, start psi, 7 psi, and full PSi is 20, still 273 whp. then we raised the boost to 10 psi, it pushes 314 whp....my tuner said that the Jetting size is too big, and he told me that the rotary doesn't need a big jet size. i decided to change to small one (130 CC), and put the start psi as 6 psi, and full PSi as 15 psi, it runs smooth up to 8K RPM.
i just wanna let people know that it's better to start the small jet to find out about the need of the car. what happened was since i run 50/50, on certain RPM, it runs rich, and my tuner didn't recommend me tune with it because you never know if there is a short circuit, defective pump, or clogged jet, you engine will be blown.
conclusion, i estimate that i willl have no problem to get to 300 whp with 8 psi with injection. i will have to run it again in dyno to find out about the better jet.
steven
If you're using alcohol Steven, and if your system is a progressive unit that has a way of making that alcohol output volume either higher or lower according to some sort of load sensing, then the nozzle size won't make any difference because alcohol, as is always the case, will be used as a fuel replacement and not an additive that's thrown on top of a 100% gasoline tuned car. Alcohol affects AFR readings. When simply adding alcohol, it will richen the AFR's up.
The reason that the power dropped when adding the AI was probably because it was beginning to flood the motor.
B
04-06-2009, 10:45 AM
#204
right---we pettit guys use a maf triggered controller and 2 jets that total 175. 100 before the s.c 
and 75 after. i am working on direct install of the jet on the lower intake manifold--along wwith some other stuff stay tuned--by this summer.
olddragger
and 75 after. i am working on direct install of the jet on the lower intake manifold--along wwith some other stuff stay tuned--by this summer.olddragger
04-06-2009, 01:29 PM
#205
This was a solid thread. I'm considering meth/alch as my next power adder as I'm pretty much as far as I'm going to go on the other fronts. I'm already running close to 13 psi peak and the car has run great the last 15k miles (minus some ignition issues as I rampaged all over the stock coil capacity). I saw Steven's AEM setup at a local meet and it's a fine work indeed. He and I have pretty similar setups so I might steal from him some (ideas obviously). I wanted to run a BHR spacer for injection but it had a couple things I didn't like.
1. my charge tube and maf tube cross in the engine bay where the stock airbox was. Pushing the TB out an inch will require me cutting an inch off the charge tube so as to not have the pipes touch.
2. there is a 90 degree bend in the intake right after the TB.
3. I'd have to rig the system to not flood my motor on failure.
A year or so ago, RG linked BDC's thread where he was doing the meth as a fuel replacement setup on maybe an FC. That was a great read. I think he brought over a lot of the know-how from the GNX crowd who love them some boost.
I already priced the system and I do love me some electronic gizmos. I hope I have the patience to wait until mid summer. If I run out and buy it now, I'll have an itch for something else in 4 months.
Sidenote: cooling injections will not always richen your mix. It depends on which is more plentiful - the amount of meth you're injecting vs. the amount of extra air you wind up with from cooling. As you run a lower meth % and use it more sparingly, you could see AFRs slide up a notch or two.
Sidenote2: in regards to direct water feed engine cleaning, I did a mazda engine cleaner process a while back and afterward feed oil into the intake using a tube and a cup. Even at idle, the engine will suck it down pretty darn fast. If you are going to use the vacuum to feed the water, I'd start with small amounts of water and expect it to go in in short order.
1. my charge tube and maf tube cross in the engine bay where the stock airbox was. Pushing the TB out an inch will require me cutting an inch off the charge tube so as to not have the pipes touch.
2. there is a 90 degree bend in the intake right after the TB.
3. I'd have to rig the system to not flood my motor on failure.
A year or so ago, RG linked BDC's thread where he was doing the meth as a fuel replacement setup on maybe an FC. That was a great read. I think he brought over a lot of the know-how from the GNX crowd who love them some boost.
I already priced the system and I do love me some electronic gizmos. I hope I have the patience to wait until mid summer. If I run out and buy it now, I'll have an itch for something else in 4 months.
Sidenote: cooling injections will not always richen your mix. It depends on which is more plentiful - the amount of meth you're injecting vs. the amount of extra air you wind up with from cooling. As you run a lower meth % and use it more sparingly, you could see AFRs slide up a notch or two.
Sidenote2: in regards to direct water feed engine cleaning, I did a mazda engine cleaner process a while back and afterward feed oil into the intake using a tube and a cup. Even at idle, the engine will suck it down pretty darn fast. If you are going to use the vacuum to feed the water, I'd start with small amounts of water and expect it to go in in short order.
Last edited by maxxdamigz; 04-06-2009 at 01:35 PM.
04-06-2009, 01:40 PM
#206
Registered
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,401
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Jet" size depends entirely on the amount of alcohol you are running with respect to the amount of gasoline fuel you are removing. Unless the system is a progressive system that uses manifold pressure as a load sensor, a static-sized jet is a relative thing and there is no one "good" size for the car. It's like saying we want some x-sized fuel injector for the car that's statically on or off. It'll be fine at one particular load/rpm point, but will be too much lower than that and too little higher than that.
If you're using alcohol Steven, and if your system is a progressive unit that has a way of making that alcohol output volume either higher or lower according to some sort of load sensing, then the nozzle size won't make any difference because alcohol, as is always the case, will be used as a fuel replacement and not an additive that's thrown on top of a 100% gasoline tuned car. Alcohol affects AFR readings. When simply adding alcohol, it will richen the AFR's up.
The reason that the power dropped when adding the AI was probably because it was beginning to flood the motor.
B
If you're using alcohol Steven, and if your system is a progressive unit that has a way of making that alcohol output volume either higher or lower according to some sort of load sensing, then the nozzle size won't make any difference because alcohol, as is always the case, will be used as a fuel replacement and not an additive that's thrown on top of a 100% gasoline tuned car. Alcohol affects AFR readings. When simply adding alcohol, it will richen the AFR's up.
The reason that the power dropped when adding the AI was probably because it was beginning to flood the motor.
B
i will go to dyno again this week or next week, and i will let you know
steven
04-06-2009, 01:49 PM
#207
Registered
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,401
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This was a solid thread. I'm considering meth/alch as my next power adder as I'm pretty much as far as I'm going to go on the other fronts. I'm already running close to 13 psi peak and the car has run great the last 15k miles (minus some ignition issues as I rampaged all over the stock coil capacity). I saw Steven's AEM setup at a local meet and it's a fine work indeed. He and I have pretty similar setups so I might steal from him some (ideas obviously). I wanted to run a BHR spacer for injection but it had a couple things I didn't like.
1. my charge tube and maf tube cross in the engine bay where the stock airbox was. Pushing the TB out an inch will require me cutting an inch off the charge tube so as to not have the pipes touch.
2. there is a 90 degree bend in the intake right after the TB.
3. I'd have to rig the system to not flood my motor on failure.
A year or so ago, RG linked BDC's thread where he was doing the meth as a fuel replacement setup on maybe an FC. That was a great read. I think he brought over a lot of the know-how from the GNX crowd who love them some boost.
I already priced the system and I do love me some electronic gizmos. I hope I have the patience to wait until mid summer. If I run out and buy it now, I'll have an itch for something else in 4 months.
Sidenote: cooling injections will not always richen your mix. It depends on which is more plentiful - the amount of meth you're injecting vs. the amount of extra air you wind up with from cooling. As you run a lower meth % and use it more sparingly, you could see AFRs slide up a notch or two.
Sidenote2: in regards to direct water feed engine cleaning, I did a mazda engine cleaner process a while back and afterward feed oil into the intake using a tube and a cup. Even at idle, the engine will suck it down pretty darn fast. If you are going to use the vacuum to feed the water, I'd start with small amounts of water and expect it to go in in short order.
1. my charge tube and maf tube cross in the engine bay where the stock airbox was. Pushing the TB out an inch will require me cutting an inch off the charge tube so as to not have the pipes touch.
2. there is a 90 degree bend in the intake right after the TB.
3. I'd have to rig the system to not flood my motor on failure.
A year or so ago, RG linked BDC's thread where he was doing the meth as a fuel replacement setup on maybe an FC. That was a great read. I think he brought over a lot of the know-how from the GNX crowd who love them some boost.
I already priced the system and I do love me some electronic gizmos. I hope I have the patience to wait until mid summer. If I run out and buy it now, I'll have an itch for something else in 4 months.
Sidenote: cooling injections will not always richen your mix. It depends on which is more plentiful - the amount of meth you're injecting vs. the amount of extra air you wind up with from cooling. As you run a lower meth % and use it more sparingly, you could see AFRs slide up a notch or two.
Sidenote2: in regards to direct water feed engine cleaning, I did a mazda engine cleaner process a while back and afterward feed oil into the intake using a tube and a cup. Even at idle, the engine will suck it down pretty darn fast. If you are going to use the vacuum to feed the water, I'd start with small amounts of water and expect it to go in in short order.
we have the same set up, so
1) about where to put teh nozzle, why don't you do like mine, just make a little hole between TB and BOV instead of the spacer. i think it's better before the TB. i don't know, they said that when it's too close to TB, it will be bugged down, it will give you too rich mix. anyway, if you decide to use the space, you have to buy an extra valve or something like that, and MM mentioned it in this thread, i think the 2 or 3 page. the best bet is just make a hole with a thread befre TB
2) it made my car ran rich because i injected too much into engine and the size of jet is too big. but, i run it for safety purpose, so 130 CC/min is preety good.
as BDC said, if you wanna buy something that is PROGRESSIVE kit, which you hook it up to manifold, i think that's a preety good kit, but as now, i am running it for safety purpose.
i will need to get back to dyno, KDR, to find out about my set up
steven
04-06-2009, 01:51 PM
#208
Does the AEM not have an RPM pick up?
The Perrin will do IDC (injector duty cycle) but that might not be best with a staged injector setup. Having the same flow at 4500 and 9000 rpms seems meh. Maybe I'll look into systems more closely resembling what BDC used in his fuel replacement project. Or maybe use a 0-5v progressive using the MAF but then I might need to pay attention to my maf readings and see if they will translate. I've already read that they are not even remotely linear.
The Perrin will do IDC (injector duty cycle) but that might not be best with a staged injector setup. Having the same flow at 4500 and 9000 rpms seems meh. Maybe I'll look into systems more closely resembling what BDC used in his fuel replacement project. Or maybe use a 0-5v progressive using the MAF but then I might need to pay attention to my maf readings and see if they will translate. I've already read that they are not even remotely linear.
Last edited by maxxdamigz; 04-06-2009 at 02:00 PM.
04-07-2009, 04:00 PM
#209
BDC Motorsports
i am running 50/50, water/meth, so basically that's why i lost power because i injected too much methanol. now i am running 130 cc/min. it's running good, but i guess, i will use it for safety, and it's running strong.
i will go to dyno again this week or next week, and i will let you know
steven
i will go to dyno again this week or next week, and i will let you know
steven
Welcome to the completely whole new world of AI. Fun, fun, and more fun.
B
04-07-2009, 04:35 PM
#210
BDC -
A while ago I read your thread on the fuel replacement system you used in an FC from Alkycontrol to great results. I went back to that to see if you had a 2 parameter control as would probably be used in a non-MAF fuel delivery. However, it looks like what you did was have a boost progressive system dialed in over 5k rpms where injector duty cycle is pretty flat and then backed off the fuel below 5k to get your target AFRs. Afterall, you were aiming at a fuel replacement set up. If you were going to do it now, would you still use a purely boost progressive system? I'd like to add injection at some point but not as a fuel replacement. However, I'd like a boost progressive system that is well controlled. Injecting the same amount at 4000 and 9000 rpms won't do and I won't pull fuel down low to compensate. Some systems have IDC progressive controls but I'm not sure if that'll work depending on how my 3rd set of injectors are set up (like if they were staged). Some can be MAF-based which is great, but my MAF is not callibrated for the intake geometry I have. I run an int-x so whatever the MAF reading is, it's largely of no consequence to me. Have you come across a MAP progressive system with RPM variability? In the end, I might just just pick the "best" rather than go overboard. If I'm not using it as a fuel source, it really doesn't have to be dialed in as such.
A while ago I read your thread on the fuel replacement system you used in an FC from Alkycontrol to great results. I went back to that to see if you had a 2 parameter control as would probably be used in a non-MAF fuel delivery. However, it looks like what you did was have a boost progressive system dialed in over 5k rpms where injector duty cycle is pretty flat and then backed off the fuel below 5k to get your target AFRs. Afterall, you were aiming at a fuel replacement set up. If you were going to do it now, would you still use a purely boost progressive system? I'd like to add injection at some point but not as a fuel replacement. However, I'd like a boost progressive system that is well controlled. Injecting the same amount at 4000 and 9000 rpms won't do and I won't pull fuel down low to compensate. Some systems have IDC progressive controls but I'm not sure if that'll work depending on how my 3rd set of injectors are set up (like if they were staged). Some can be MAF-based which is great, but my MAF is not callibrated for the intake geometry I have. I run an int-x so whatever the MAF reading is, it's largely of no consequence to me. Have you come across a MAP progressive system with RPM variability? In the end, I might just just pick the "best" rather than go overboard. If I'm not using it as a fuel source, it really doesn't have to be dialed in as such.
Last edited by maxxdamigz; 04-07-2009 at 04:38 PM.
04-07-2009, 05:53 PM
#211
BDC Motorsports
BDC -
A while ago I read your thread on the fuel replacement system you used in an FC from Alkycontrol to great results. I went back to that to see if you had a 2 parameter control as would probably be used in a non-MAF fuel delivery. However, it looks like what you did was have a boost progressive system dialed in over 5k rpms where injector duty cycle is pretty flat and then backed off the fuel below 5k to get your target AFRs.
A while ago I read your thread on the fuel replacement system you used in an FC from Alkycontrol to great results. I went back to that to see if you had a 2 parameter control as would probably be used in a non-MAF fuel delivery. However, it looks like what you did was have a boost progressive system dialed in over 5k rpms where injector duty cycle is pretty flat and then backed off the fuel below 5k to get your target AFRs.
Afterall, you were aiming at a fuel replacement set up. If you were going to do it now, would you still use a purely boost progressive system?
A boost alone progressive system works just fine. The finer control, once the alcohol is presented to replace an x percentage of fuel, can be done with the EFI system.
I'd like to add injection at some point but not as a fuel replacement. However, I'd like a boost progressive system that is well controlled. Injecting the same amount at 4000 and 9000 rpms won't do and I won't pull fuel down low to compensate. Some systems have IDC progressive controls but I'm not sure if that'll work depending on how my 3rd set of injectors are set up (like if they were staged). Some can be MAF-based which is great, but my MAF is not callibrated for the intake geometry I have. I run an int-x so whatever the MAF reading is, it's largely of no consequence to me.
Why wouldn't you pull fuel out at higher RPM to compensate for a steady output of alcohol? The alcohol is far superior to gasoline and it strikes me that it'd be nothing but better at higher RPM where more heat is generated.
Have you come across a MAP progressive system with RPM variability? In the end, I might just just pick the "best" rather than go overboard. If I'm not using it as a fuel source, it really doesn't have to be dialed in as such.
Even if you're not using yours as a fuel replacement, then whatever amount of alcohol you use will still require the removal of fuel (for simplicity sake).
B
04-07-2009, 06:07 PM
#212
I just got myself to a new power level plateau so I'm not in a hurry to add anything. However, I'm already running 13 psi so from here on out, if I want to get more (and you always want more) I have to go somewhere. At first, I'm just going to run it as a cooling mod. However, I'd like to build a setup with a mind towards what I might want to do down the road. I was reading today something about a S-HSV (literally their Super High Speed Valve) controller that might be compatible with an RPM and Boost feed. You back that up with a constant pressure pump and you're set. I need to go back and read more on that.
I could also just quit being lazy and bust out some MAF response data. The lazy side is so strong though.
I could also just quit being lazy and bust out some MAF response data. The lazy side is so strong though.
04-07-2009, 06:39 PM
#213
BDC Motorsports
I just got myself to a new power level plateau so I'm not in a hurry to add anything. However, I'm already running 13 psi so from here on out, if I want to get more (and you always want more) I have to go somewhere. At first, I'm just going to run it as a cooling mod.
However, I'd like to build a setup with a mind towards what I might want to do down the road. I was reading today something about a S-HSV (literally their Super High Speed Valve) controller that might be compatible with an RPM and Boost feed. You back that up with a constant pressure pump and you're set. I need to go back and read more on that.
I could also just quit being lazy and bust out some MAF response data. The lazy side is so strong though.
I could also just quit being lazy and bust out some MAF response data. The lazy side is so strong though.
B
04-07-2009, 09:56 PM
#215
Well I think the maf signal is fairly non-linear. For that kind of interpretation, I'll have to pick the Cobb AP brains. What I could do is log my car and compare maf values to MAP/RPM points. Then use a progressive 5V trigger setup based on my own maf calibration. I could also get the cobb AP while I'm at it as I value some of it's non-power-related performance. However, if it's just a single question, single answer type scenario/mod, it's hardly interesting. I need something to keep me busy for a while. I need something that requires some engineering.
As for quality parts, I've never been one to skimp on budget. If anything, I'll wind up with something that is either very adequate or completely overdone.
As for quality parts, I've never been one to skimp on budget. If anything, I'll wind up with something that is either very adequate or completely overdone.
04-08-2009, 07:37 AM
#216
understand-- i think too much about this dang car at times myself. Its almost like I am married too it.
Snow has a good maf triggered controller. With adjustable injection curves. It would be good to do a custom mount of the injectors in the primary tubes of the lower intake manifold. also need a way to monitor intake temps after the w/m injection.
If you want to really think about something--think about the engine's internals--contrary to what a lot of people believe there is a lot you can do to the insides of this engine.
olddragger
Snow has a good maf triggered controller. With adjustable injection curves. It would be good to do a custom mount of the injectors in the primary tubes of the lower intake manifold. also need a way to monitor intake temps after the w/m injection.
If you want to really think about something--think about the engine's internals--contrary to what a lot of people believe there is a lot you can do to the insides of this engine.
olddragger
02-14-2010, 04:32 AM
#217
Super Moderator
Well I am waiting on a Snow MAF Unit as OD/Charles knows...
When it arrives I will post up info...
And yes mine is a S2 and NA only...
I am using a BHR TB Plate (Super Quality) ...easy to remove...for Mazda...
When it arrives I will post up info...
And yes mine is a S2 and NA only...
I am using a BHR TB Plate (Super Quality) ...easy to remove...for Mazda...
05-26-2010, 02:06 AM
#219
I don't have datalogging capability for my EGT sensor (I guess I could log "CAT temp" via OBD, but I doubt it is accurate), but W/M generally raises EGT.
The slowed/delayed combustion combined with what is effectively a programmed misfire is the cause of that.
The slowed/delayed combustion combined with what is effectively a programmed misfire is the cause of that.
05-26-2010, 09:34 AM
#222
That is interesting. I know a slight power loss can be seen at certain injection levels (several causes of that unless you tune it out), but w/m raises--not lowers the egt's? Thats the interesting part.
How can it raise egt but yet cool the combustion temp? Talking about a 50/50 blend.
OD
How can it raise egt but yet cool the combustion temp? Talking about a 50/50 blend.
OD
05-26-2010, 02:21 PM
#224
Registered
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,401
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i have 8 gauges, to monitor eveything, let me know if you need it, i can recerd a little video..
what i can see is that i am using 50/50, as a result:
1) gear = 3rd
RPM = 4.5k - 5 k
EGT = 1150 F
FROM this point untill 8K rpm, i punched it with 8-9PSI...as a result:
EGT = 1150.....when i let it go, it drops to 950 - 1000 F
2)gear = 4rd
RPM = 4.5k - 5 k
EGT = 1220 F
FROM this point untill 8K rpm, i punched it with 8-9PSI...as a result:
EGT = 1200.....when i let it go, it drops immediately to 950F
this is what happened to my car....i start my W/M spray at 4psi ..
i hope it helps, and let me know if you guys want me to record a video....
steven
05-26-2010, 03:24 PM
#225
/\ thanks halimsteven . What I was hoping to see was EGTs without W/M then with W/M . Any possibility you could do back to back runs ?
FWIW - I see egts via OBD at 1745 F on a boosted run to 8k at similar boost levels to you but no W/M.
Even if this was not accurate as MM suggests it would at least give a good comparison of before and after .
FWIW - I see egts via OBD at 1745 F on a boosted run to 8k at similar boost levels to you but no W/M.
Even if this was not accurate as MM suggests it would at least give a good comparison of before and after .
Last edited by Brettus; 05-26-2010 at 04:32 PM.